"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

snoopy · Veteran Member

Bill W, saint or creep

ZiggyDoodles · Senior Member

I don't know is all I can say. I don't have the answers.

I was just talking a Bill to a friend in the program the other day. Refering to the book, "As Bill Sees It". There are times when it is hard for me to read only one person opinion. Was Bill a saint? I don't know. Not my business. Was he a bad guy? I don't know...not my business. He is one of the founders of this wonderful program? Yes! Does, his opinion remind me that I am entiltled to my own opinion? Yes.

I am grateful him and Dr Bob met and started this program. To me, what keeps it alive is the people in the program....old and new and a God of understand.

That is just my take.

Ziggy

Dolphin123 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Snoopy,

Was Bill W. perfect, no. Did he try to do the best he can with what he had, yes (in my humble opinion). Bill W. was an alcoholic who had a spiritual awakening and who tried to help others on the path to sobriety. And thanks to him and Dr. Bob, the beginnings of alanon came through.

I read the book "When Love is Not Enough" and that was a story about Lois W. and in reading her story you read about Bill W. and his struggles as well.

I never walked in his shoes, I don't know why he made the choices that he did. And he isn't around to ask. So i will focus on the good that he did, and boy did that man do a lot of good. Sure he may have done some bad, but who hasn't?

I know for one I am in no place to judge.

Take what you like and leave the rest.

Love in recovery,

Mandy

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

Whether Bill W was a creep or a saint is not for me to decide. Nor is it for me to decide anyone else's worthiness. None of us is perfect, and I certainly am not going to be the one to start tossing stones! Now that I think about it, I don't even care...

Diva

serendipity · ~*Service Worker*~

when i first heard that bill w. was human just like the rest of us i was so disappointed. i really was. but i did come to realize that sober does not equal sainthood. and even very smart, caring, well-rounded people make big mistakes and hurt those they love. so, he was human and for me that shows me that humans can do remarkable things for each other. and i am human so i can also do great things despite being just a plain old human with faults.

Tiger2006 · ~*Service Worker*~

Bill was very grandiose in his motives and very, very intense. He was also destroyed by the death of Dr Bob--he considered him to be both sponsor and best friend. Having said all that, it is worth remembering that Bill didn't have a clear method of reaching out to alcholics when AA was first founded; literally, the only reliable method was to go out to the bridges, hospitals, prisons and highway overpasses, pick the bums up, have them shower and shave within their own homes and then try to talk to them about AA. Imagine having a complete stranger sleeping rent free on your couch for god knows how long.

Having said all that, another important element of alcholism hadn't yet been established,and that was how alcholism seems to magically mask elements of depression, ADD, and many other mental illnesses. It was well known that people who were alcholic were mentally ill and certainly they suffered a host of physical ailments, but defining what they were and their origins was so murky that it seemed like searching for the holy grail. Even today, scientists still find themsevles stymied by the origins of mental illness: how is it that perfectly loving parents create horrors like Jeffery Dhamer, yet horribly abusive parents create philanthropists like Oprah?

It is worth remembering that when we try to place people in boxes we are really doing so because of our own discomforts. Anytime we try to pigeonhole or label people, we are trying to control what cannot be out of a need for our own serenity. The irony is, by trying to control another in the name of serenity, we have already given it away. Our serenity is based in our own mental health and our personal power. Any time we place that in the hands of a human being, it is already lost.

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Bill W. was.....

SLS · Senior Member

RE: Bill W, saint or creep

hudsond · ~*Service Worker*~

It seems I agree with the others. Bill W. was just a human, who was also an alcoholic, who made a difference in many others' lives. No matter what I am greatful for A.A. and all that the program has made possible.

Dawn

maresie2 · ~*Service Worker*~

I think the issue of and love addiction never really started to be dealt with until way way way later. I also think the issue of cross addiction has probably only recently been treated and communicated about in the last decade.

I know I have my own cross addiciton issues, love addiction, spending issues, food disorder (compulsive over eater). I also have depression and ptsd.

I've read a bio on Bill W by Susan Cheever and in some ways that book made me admire Bill more because he had so many issues. There is no question he had major major depression issues. Remember this was before Prozac.

When I'm dealing with anyone I used to idealize or want to idealize (and I think I want to idealize because I never could do it with my parents) I have to see the big picture. When was Bill doing this. What were the times? No one but no one spoke about their childhoods and relationships then. No one spoke about addiction. There is no question founding an organization that eventually came to save millions of lives and prevent hardship for families is an achievement. His actions came out of tremendous pain. My own actions today come out of tremendous pain. I have to be as careful not to set myself up to be "perfect" as I have to look to others to be perfect.

I'm the first to acknowledge Bill had issues. I am also willing to acknowledge his achievements in spite of his mental illness, multiple addictions and many many other issues (including dire financial straits) were incredible.

Maresie.

snoopy · Veteran Member

I'm sorry, but this bothers me. I did a search on Bill Wilson just for the fun of it and I couldn't believe what I was reading. My husband cheated on me and I can only feel for poor Lois whose husband kept on womanizing even after he sobered up. Does anyone know if this is true and documented elsewhere? I've copied just a portion of what I read:

Bill Wilson taught that he was "powerless" over every urge or craving he ever had, no matter whether it was a thirst for alcohol, cravings for cigarettes, greed for money, the desire for self-aggrandizement, the temptation to lie, or the urge to cheat on his wife Lois by having sex with all of the pretty young women who came to the meetings. That's an interesting excuse for cheating on your wife, one of the more novel ones, but it doesn't wash.

Bill Wilson was habitually unfaithful to the wife who was supporting him, both before and after sobriety. Bill was such an outrageous philanderer that the other elder A.A. members had to form a "Founder's Watch Committee", whose job it was to follow Bill Wilson around, and watch him, and break up budding sexual relationships with the pretty young things before he publicly embarrassed A.A. yet again.1

The impression that he was a ladies' man seems to have come from the way he sometimes behaved at AA gatherings. When Bill wasn't accompanied by Lois (or later, Helen), he could often be observed engaged in animated conversation with an attractive young newcomer. His interest in younger women seemed to grow more intense with age. Barry Leach, who knew Bill nearly thirty years, told me that in the 1960s he and other friends of Bill's formed what they came to refer to as the "Founder's Watch" committee. People were delegated to keep track of Bill during the socializing that usually accompanies AA functions. When they observed a certain gleam in his eye, they would tactfully steer Bill off in one direction and the dewy-eyed newcomer in another.
Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Co-Founder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan, 2000, page 192.

Susan Cheever reported the same thing in her biography of Bill Wilson, although she tried hard to downplay its importance, using standard stereotypical alcoholic Minimization and Denial to claim that it didn't matter much and wasn't any big deal:

Many people in A.A. worried that Bill Wilson's sexual behavior would be discovered and reflect badly on the movement. Whether or not they were necessary, self-appointed "Bill watchers" usually stayed close to him at meetings and conferences to prevent him from interacting with attractive newcomers in a way that might appear unseemly.
My Name Is Bill; Bill Wilson -- His Life And The Creation Of Alcoholics Anonymous, Susan Cheever, page 225.

What kind of a healer or leader is that? You have to follow him around and watch him, to prevent him from sexually exploiting the newcomers?

Also notice how Susan Cheever totally ignored and avoided the important issue of the harm done to the women alcoholics who got used by Bill for his sex games and self-aggrandizement. Susan Cheever wouldn't touch that issue; she only wrote about how some silly worry-warts unnecessarily fretted over Bill's behavior, worrying that it might "reflect badly on the movement", and "might appear unseemly". Susan Cheever writes as if the women in recovery didn't matter and didn't have any feelings worth worrying about, and their recovery, their health, and their continued sobriety was of no consequence, not even worth mentioning. The women whom Bill Wilson used and exploited were treated like irrelevant objects both in Bill's sex games and in Susan Cheever's mind.

Bill Wilson just didn't want to be bothered with the hard work of resisting temptation. Like so many other phony gurus, he lived a life of hypocritical irresolute self-indulgence, preaching "spirituality", "absolute purity", "rigorous honesty", and self-sacrifice to others while indulging in all of the pleasures of the flesh himself -- with the sole exception that he does appear to have finally quit drinking alcohol after it nearly killed him.

So just how was Bill's behavior an example of a life "lived on a spiritual basis"? Besides the fact that he hypocritically yammered the words "God" and "working selflessly" all of the time, and held séances and played with Ouija boards, just what was "spiritual" about William G. Wilson?

peewee · Senior Member

I know nothing about Bill W's personal life except that he was an alcoholic and he took steps and the program reverberated around the earth forever.

I know and know OF lots of people, both a's and not a's, who are not perfect, but are still worthy of love and respect for the good things they have done for people.

I detest labels on people. So, my suggestion is that you get some goo-gone and wipe off labels.

Love in alanon,

PW

AndiLynn · Senior Member

My opinion of this.......Only Bill's HP will decide if he is a saint or a creep.

Andi

lin0606 · ~*Service Worker*~

Well, seems to me that if you don't want to think much of Bill W, don't. We follow a 12 step program because it works for us, not because of some charismatic God-figure. The work I need to do on myself is the same whether Bill was Buddha, Jesus and Santa Claus rolled into one, or whether he was a horrid little man. This is not a program of hero worship, even though some members,especially in AA, seem to want to make it so. That is none of my business. My only business is my own actions.

If what you are worried about here is that your husband will say to you "Bill did it and so I can too", you can greet that with the snort of derision it deserves. You know it's BS and so does he.

SLS · Senior Member

Ok, Snoopy, for the sake of argument let's assume it is your job to take Bill's inventory and everything that you reprinted was true.

What now??

In AA and Al-Anon we "place principles above personalities"--neither is a "cult of personality." What would you have us do--denounce AA and Al-Anon (since our program is adapted from AA) because one of it's early founders wasn't perfect??

Just asking...

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

I have no idea what purpose u have in reprinting something that is just another persons Idea of a personality .

Sounds like a A who could not or would not work this simple program . Seems to me he must have done something right since AA has survived exactly as it started 60 odd yrs ago.

Those of us whos loved ones have used AA to stay sober are grateful .

Lunamoth · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Snoopy--

I liked what Ziggydoodle has to say. One thought came to mind, Bill W.'s book "As Bill Sees It" is only half a story -- then there is "Lois Remembers."

To me this points out how any relationship is like a pancake, no matter how thin it is there are two side - or takes on the events that happened. It's their perspective.

It's MHO, that I can't judge the man -- I can judge the program by it's results. I can respect him for his contributions to AA, but he is not all of AA. He never was. AA is a fellowship. If you are looking for what this program can do for you, or what AA might possibly give to your A then research the Steps. Work on a step study. Bill W. was just a man, who Hp decided to use in the gift of this program.

There is a danger to putting anyone on a pedestal, they're human and they fall off. (never meeting our expectations.) We aren't perfect, only perfectly human.

ShelBell · Senior Member

Snoopy,

I have been giving your posts some thought. I am wondering if the root of your displeasure is fear? Are you afraid that your A, who has cheated on you, will see this womanizing behavior as a stamp of approval to continue his own bad behavior, sexual and otherwise?

Just an idea....give it some thought.

drucilla06 · Senior Member

(((snoopy))))

I never thought of Bill W as a 'saint'.I do think that he was led by God to start the AA program,along with Dr. Bob..but that's just MY opinion.

I think that you may be stuck on the idea that sobriety is the answer to all of your problems with your A.It certainly isn't.My marriage got much worse after sobriety as have so many others.I feel for Lois as well,but many women have walked in her shoes.Bill was a very sick man.So is my husband,your husband,and all alcoholics.Stopping the drinking does not remove the demons..on the contrary it just removes the method of escape from them.

There are many doctors who are fat and unhealthy.Knowing the way does not always assure that one will follow the path.They can tell others how to get there,but may not be able to get there themselves.Bill showed others how to quit drinking and a path to follow for a sober life.Many millions have benefitted from that.What he did with his life after that is his own business.

love ya, dru

DanaAngel · Senior Member

My A has been sober for over 20 years in AA so this topic certainly is not new to me at all. In my opinion Bill W certainly was neither a saint or a god or anything but a man who did have faults and more than likely other addictions in addition to the alcohol addiction. But at that time not much was said or acknowledged about multiple addictions or depression or ADD, which my other half was recently discovered to have. We have come so far in that respect in regards to dealing with other mental health issues, and thank goodness for that.

snoopy · Veteran Member

ShelBell wrote:

Snoopy,

I have been giving your posts some thought. I am wondering if the root of your displeasure is fear? Are you afraid that your A, who has cheated on you, will see this womanizing behavior as a stamp of approval to continue his own bad behavior, sexual and otherwise?

Just an idea....give it some thought.

Shelbell--very insightful of you. The answer is yes.

snoopy · Veteran Member

drucilla06 wrote:

(((snoopy))))

I think that you may be stuck on the idea that sobriety is the answer to all of your problems with your A.It certainly isn't.My marriage got much worse after sobriety as have so many others.I feel for Lois as well,but many women have walked in her shoes.Bill was a very sick man.So is my husband,your husband,and all alcoholics.Stopping the drinking does not remove the demons..on the contrary it just removes the method of escape from them.

love ya, dru

Drucilla--I have to agree with you. There were times when I thought to myself, that I would just as as soon have him drink. The thing that bothers me most though is the disrespect and the important issue of the harm done to the women alcoholics who got used by Bill for his sex games and self-aggrandizement. Yes, how about that one? How about women being preyed upon by someone that they thought they could trust. Anytime someone else uses another vulnerable human being for their own pleasure is crossing every line and boundary out there. It is not tolerated in any venue. Workplaces,hospitals, churches, support groups, Anywhere. I can't help but think about the discarded women that some men use and then throw away. And--we are not talking about healthy women, but fearful, vulnerable women who are betrayed by the very place and people they came to to get help. The good old boys club maybe needs to have a reality check and told how dangerous this is and how much harm can be done to innocent victims. Maybe this should be discussed so it doesn't happen in today's meetings. I think we can all learn from past history and the truth so it can be corrected and steps put in place to not have it happen anymore, and warning about intolerance for this kind of behavior. The one thing I do not get is how the sick behavior of 13th stepping is any less harmful than active drinking. The sex addict hurts people too. Physically and emotionally. What about giving an STD to your partner. I'm so sorry, but I am trying so hard to get this program and sometimes I feel more frustrated than ever. But I know that I feel the love by all you people and thanks for answering my stupid questions and helping me get this so I can get better.

Love to all, Snoopy

lin0606 · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, 13th stepping is harmful, I have personally been damaged by that. Yes, sex addictions are harmful. Yes, most alcoholics have multiple addictions, and move from the drinking to something else (ever been to an AA meeting and seen the amount of coffee they drink, or how everyone runs for the door when a smoke break is called?)

To my mind, none of that is the point. I am in my program because I need it. Plain and simple.

My husband is in his program trying to save his life. He had a crack and drink addiction that was killing him. When he dried out, he moved into something that looked very much like a sex addiction. His 13th stepping slip came a lot closer to ending our marriage than a drinking slip would have. Now, nearly four years later, he may be clean in all ways - I think so, I hope so, but I don't know for sure. Should we say that because he did not become a healthy person as soon as he stopped drinking, he should never have joined AA? I don't think so - I am pretty sure that if he had not stopped when he did, he would be dead by now.

13th stepping is a lot like the "marijuana miantenence plan" - another way for alcoholics to lie to themselves, and others. Another destructive behaviour from people who know no other way to get through life than destruction. NO AA member who is serious about the program and working the steps honestly agrees with this, and no sponsor who truly is fulfilling the role of a sponsor would condone it. However, AA is full of fallible human beings, as is alanon, and some of them go down a wrong path. This does not dimiinish the value of AA as a way to save the lives of alcoholics. One thing we have to do, here, is face reality. Reality, is, there is no perfect path forward, there will always be hypocrisy and human failure, if you look hard enough for it. So what? *I* don't have to hypocritical, and *I* can work past my failures to achieve a life I want.

ShelBell · Senior Member

Snoopy

I friend I hold very dear came to me a couple of years ago for marriage advice. They were struggling along, she didn't know what to do, what was the right thing.... So I told her that she was a wonderful, loving, strong person and that she would be okay. Even if the marriage is not okay, and he is not okay, SHE would be okay.

After the conversation had ended I realized that the same applied to me. Even if my marriage and spouse were not going to be okay, I was.

I hope that you can find a way to let go of these worries and be okay too.

snoopy · Veteran Member

ShelBell wrote:

Snoopy

I friend I hold very dear came to me a couple of years ago for marriage advice. They were struggling along, she didn't know what to do, what was the right thing.... So I told her that she was a wonderful, loving, strong person and that she would be okay. Even if the marriage is not okay, and he is not okay, SHE would be okay.

After the conversation had ended I realized that the same applied to me. Even if my marriage and spouse were not going to be okay, I was.

I hope that you can find a way to let go of these worries and be okay too.

Shel Bel: What a dear friend. Just the words I needed to hear now. Thanks, Snoopy

snoopy · Veteran Member

Does anyone agree with me that such behavior of 13th stepping should be reported?

gardengal · ~*Service Worker*~

I am wondering,,what is the point of all of this? How does any of this help us in alanon to delve into someone's past and dig up dirt?

snoopy · Veteran Member

gardengal wrote:

I am wondering,,what is the point of all of this? How does any of this help us in alanon to delve into someone's past and dig up dirt?

What I hope it would do is to make us accountable for our actions. Ignorance in NOT bliss. Ignorance is just ignorance. And to know and witness that this kind of crap goes on in meetings and not doing anything about it is perpetuating abuse. Why is sexual abuse tolerated and drinking not tolerated? Vulnerable women need to be protected, and if what Bill W did is seen in today's meetings, it needs to be addressed. We should be protecting each other, not throwing them to the wolves. That is my point. History repeats itself, and bringing this out in the open can protect and warn people that this kind of crap will Not be tolerated.

Thanks, Snoopy

Jennifer · ~*Service Worker*~

snoopy wrote:

Vulnerable women need to be protected, and if what Bill W did is seen in today's meetings, it needs to be addressed. We should be protecting each other, not throwing them to the wolves. That is my point. History repeats itself, and bringing this out in the open can protect and warn people that this kind of crap will Not be tolerated.

Thanks, Snoopy

Hello ((snoopy)) and ((all))

I would like to point out that there are as many vulnerable men as there are women. And that Bill W. is not the only person who has made these choices in life, holding him to a higher standard than other people of either sex is not fair. IMHO this program is about learning my boundaries and how to live my life. It is a good thing to bring up these topics to inform people of the risks. BUT it is not my job to protect anyone from bad decisions, whether it is my A, a fellow 12 step member or any other creature with free will. Nor is it my place to judge whether someone is a saint, sinner or creep.

Jennifer

snoopy · Veteran Member

Jennifer wrote:

snoopy wrote:

Vulnerable women need to be protected, and if what Bill W did is seen in today's meetings, it needs to be addressed. We should be protecting each other, not throwing them to the wolves. That is my point. History repeats itself, and bringing this out in the open can protect and warn people that this kind of crap will Not be tolerated.

Thanks, Snoopy

Hello ((snoopy)) and ((all))

I would like to point out that there are as many vulnerable men as there are women. And that Bill W. is not the only person who has made these choices in life, holding him to a higher standard than other people of either sex is not fair. IMHO this program is about learning my boundaries and how to live my life. It is a good thing to bring up these topics to inform people of the risks. BUT it is not my job to protect anyone from bad decisions, whether it is my A, a fellow 12 step member or any other creature with free will. Nor is it my place to judge whether someone is a saint, sinner or creep.

Jennifer

I still think it is good to inform people of potential harm. Boundaries are a great thing, but not always feasable for people just learning about the program. That is why they need to be protected from people like Bill W or Joe Blow or anyone that abuses the principals of the program. I totally disagree with you that it is not my job to protect anyone from others bad decisions. Vulnerable people need protection in the beginning when they don't know what the program is all about. And--I think it is my job to address the situation if I see anyone 13th stepping a vulnerable person. I know I would want someone looking after me or my daughter or son or any other loved one of mine.

-- Edited by snoopy at 14:52, 2007-01-16

snoopy · Veteran Member

drucilla06 wrote:

(((snoopy))))

IThere are many doctors who are fat and unhealthy.Knowing the way does not always assure that one will follow the path.They can tell others how to get there,but may not be able to get there themselves.Bill showed others how to quit drinking and a path to follow for a sober life.Many millions have benefitted from that.What he did with his life after that is his own business.

love ya, dru

Dear Dru:

My point is that doctors who are fat and unhealthy are hurting themselves, not other vulnerable women. People should be allowed to live and be who they want, unless it hurts someone else. So-----What he died with his life after that should be everyone's business when his business was hitting on and having sex with vulnerable women who came to a safe place to get better, and ended up getting hurt more instead. What's so wrong with watching out for one another? Too bad someone didn't do that back in 1935. It's too late for Lois and the other women, but it's not too late for the vulnerable men and women in 2007.

Thanks, Snoopy

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"