The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
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I have noticed lately that I have a seriously low opinion of men in general (no offense guys). I find myself thinking that men don't have any feelings and that they only want one thing. I think I have felt this way for a long time, but when I think about men I think in terms of they don't care about anything they don't have love in their hearts. I have seen here a lot of guys going thru what I'm going thru and I think they must be a rare breed because I don't think ANY MAN would put up with from me what I have been put through. How can I begin to change my thinking about men? I used to have tons of guy friends when I was younger until I wasn't "allowed" to any more, now it seems like its either about sex or not happening. I know not all guys are sex fiends. I just haven't met any of them. Do any of the other girls feel this way? I can't really explain it like I would like to.
I can understand where you are coming from as I have certainly met my share of creepy guys in this lifetime.
However my Dad, my brother and my BIL all were and are very sensitive, kind, and loving husbands who treated their wives with the utmost respect and no abuse of any kind. So I know that they are out there.
For myself I have found out that how it begins is how it usually ends. So, if your relationships starts out as being a true and sincere freindship, if the man in your life learns to value you and see you for what is on the INSIDE for a long period of time, then usually they are the type that want more than just sex from you.
I knew my husband as a friend only for two whole years, while we were both involved with others. This was a real friendship, we did not have any chemistry that we tried to overlook. We were both totally immersed in our other relationships. We both became single again at about the same time and we both realized that since we enjoyed our freindship so much that we might enjoy more and started dating. Ironically, not very much changed, LOL. We still talked a lot and really did not get into any thing physical until after we married, besides kissing. I can tell you that with such a solid foundation underneath us of mutual respect and caring that what came after we married was worth the wait!
I know it is outdated to some people...but I told my husband while we were dating I don't beleive in having sex before getting married, and he did not lose interest in any way. Now that REALLY weeds out the guys only interested in "one thing". If they are serious about a real and lasting relationship like marriage, and they are willing to wait until the time is right to enter into it, you can be pretty sure that they are a little deeper than only wanting you for sex.
Even though most woman don't admit to this, some women can be like this also. They overlook guys who don't ooze sex appeal and ignore the "nerdy" types. I have gotten to be friends with guys who most woman would consider as not dating material since they were bookworms or kind of boring. After getting to know them I discovered that I really liked them for more than a friendship. But that was because I looked deeper.
My husband told me that most woman had rejected him at first since he lived at home with his parents and drove a really rusted out junkmobile, LOL. I didn't care about all that stuff, he was gainfully employed, payed his bills and the car was HIS and paid for, it wasn't his mom's, LOL. That was enough for me...LOL. He turned out great in many ways, despite his alcoholism. Now he supports ME, and his potential wasn't apparant when I was dating him. I didn't marry him for his potential I married him since he valued me as a friend only and mostly cared about what was on the inside. He was extremely respectful the whole time we were dating, he never made any suggestive comments to me or about me. He made sure that I knew that that stuff was on the back burner, and definately NOT in the forefront of his mind. That is mainly WHY I married him, he was capable of seeing me for more than what was on the outside.
I think the best way to get rid of guys who are only after one thing is to make sure they dont' get it, LOL, then the only ones left are the guys that want more than that...then you take it from there with one of them...
Also be careful where you meet guys. Where are the kind of guys who respect women going to be? A great place to meet nice men is at school functions for your children, at community service projects, etc. You want someone who has a FULL LIFE already in place, not someone who is just into one or two things ( one of those being sex). Usually someone willing to give of himself to others, such as in community service, is a fully formed human being, and capable of seeing women as more than sex objects.
Of course I am speaking of generalities and not specifics. There will always be exceptions to the rule.
Also, it is probably not a good idea to jump into another relationship. Creepy guys will come out of the woodwork waiting to take advantage of a hurting woman if they hear about it. They are more than willing to help you pick up the pieces and transfer your feeligns to them...whether they are sincere about a relationship or not.
There have been times when I put all men in one category. There are some "quirks" I have found as common in a lot of men, but not all--I just find that I attract those kind. I always had guy friends growing up also, but not a real dating boyfriend until college. While after dealing with them in dating life and with my first husband I lumped them all into the "jerk" category. I tell my husband that if we don't "make it" I won't do this again. Part of me really feels like it is just too hard, the other part of me says I'm just hurting when I say and feel this way. I kind of think that is where you are--hurting very deeply--right now. I may be wrong, but really when I read your posts--I hear lots of pain. I am so sorry you are so tired and disgusted with men.
I truly think there are some good ones out there, unfortunately--they are getting fewer and harder to find. Just keep your chin up, do the next right thing for you and your HP will send you what you need!!! (Maybe in time you will come across a perfect little "summer cottage" that you can go to whenever you want and you won't have to consider anyone else--or you will travel seeing wonderful things-----That's what I keep in my mind--if I end up on "my own" I think hey I can do what I want whenever I want (after I get over the financial troubles of course :) !!!!)
Oh well, I really just hope that you begin to feel better soon! Keep posting--Keep coming back. We love you!
I know the 4th step made a huge difference in my prospectives of the world. Here it was, on paper what I thought and felt about my world, and how I reacted to it. When your sposnor feels it's time, she'll guide you though it.
The sexual side of our lives is very fragile and very personal. I don't think we want to talk about it as much as we need to simply because there is this idea of verboten to it. But at the same time, in the alcholic dysfunction, sexuality becomes a shaming tool--women become likend to dogs and body parts, their weight gets talked about in humilitating ways, and they become low. (I have no idea what women say to men) So the idea that somehow our sexuality won't be affected by the alcholism doesn't register with me--of course it will. And for survivors of abuse, this is even more delicate territory--some how, the body itself becomes shameful because it was abused. The sense of powerlessness, the sense of helplessness creates a cycle of shame, a sense of self hatred--I know for me the "shoulds" come from here. For example, it's only recently that I've gotten it together enough to stop saying how I "should have stopped my father from beating me up", realizing that my father started when I was a very little girl, and that it would have taken the insight of a much older woman to see what my father was doing in order to stop him before he progressed with WHAT he was doing HOW he was doing it.
Now, having said all this, your sponsor will hands down be the best person to give you insight into what needs to be done reguarding restructuring your sex ideal and your sexual dysfunctions. If, in her experience, al anon, step work, and time will heal your specific wounds, then Vaya Con Dios. However, if some of your wounds are of my nature, then it is my experience, and the experience of many others of us, that professional intervention has been extremely helpful in breaking the barriers that kept people trapped in toxic thought patterns--mine, for example, was "I should have stopped him. He was a sick old man when I was born, I could've taken him. I should've stopped him. I didn't and he did it." I've had to work very very hard to see that my father started his violence when I was very very young, and couldn't beat a stick, let alone a 200 lb, 6' man.
Not sure if you want to hear from one of "them" , but I felt the urge to reply.
How to change your thinking about men....hmmmmmmm.....
Start thinking of them as people first. I know in my own case, I definately fit into that "rare" catagory you mention. And to be perfectly honest I think there are tons of men out there.....who do as well. Just as I believe that there are woman out there who fall into the same catagory of people who "don't have any feelings and that they only want one thing" (maybe its a different thing than men, maybe not..lol). I saw my situation as so atypical in the beginning. Here I am the man, and i am the one who is "the good one", the "victim". My wife, the woman!, is the alcoholic, the one out having affairs and leaving me to take care of kids and "woman" things..lol.
Al-anon straightened my arse out real fast. My situation is not unique. And I had to first learn to look at myself. Why I had feelings, resentments towards my wife. And how that affected my general outlook on all woman.
In this world now, it is so politically incorrect to stereotype...to profile. And I see the wisdom now in not doing so. I had to stop seeing a person as a certain sex, race, religion, sexual orientation...whatever...and start seeing them as a unique individual above all else. I don't have to like them just because they are same color as me, same whatever as me. I dont have to dislike them because they are not the same whatever as me.
I try like hell not to judge anybody by there appearance anymore. It is too limiting.
Anyway, don't know that any of this helps you .....but just thought I would share.
And don't worry, I am not "offended" by what you wrote. And I completely understand your feelings.
David is pretty much on track from my perspective, also. I think it behooves us all to look at where we've been meeting partners, and who we are attracted to. Codep's are attracted to other codep's and A's... learn how to spot them... the things we are learning... rescuing, no boundries, and such are obvious when we carefully analyze a conversation we have with a "potential".
with love
cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I have been here before.....I scared a lot of men away after my first divorce. I was anti-man everything. Much, much later....I discovered I was pretty close minded about the way I felt and actually owed these guys an amends. One in particular comes to mind. I found out he was nothing like the MAN I put into category. We have been great friends ever since. I am very grateful he had forgiven me...otherwise that friendship would have never of happened. From that one person, I learned many things from.
My father always pounded in my head (sometimes literally) to give everyone a chance, not to judge, and to love everyone, unless they give me good reason not to. Tough to do at first. I still had this hang up about the man thing. I met a man. I wasn't looking for a man. It really caught me off guard. He seemed so different than anyone I had ever met....and he was in comparison to the ones I had dated or been friends with. It didn't take too long and he and I were dating. It was one of the best relationship I have ever had. He taught me how to have a relationship and how to work at. Every weakness I had he built up. To that point, it had been the only healthy one I had. Then, came the deer in the headlights. He called and said he needed to do his "own thing". His "own thing" had a name. I never had my heart broke so bad. At the time it was hard not to look back and think everything was a complete lie. Whether it was or it wasn't...I don't care. What I did learn is how to have a relationship. How to love in a healthy way and how to let go. I have no animosity toward him what so ever. I was given a chance to learn valuable lessons and I use them today.
My children's therapist suggested I read the book by Susan Forward "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them" I am pretty sure that is the title. It was eye opening. It also helped me pinpoint a little better on the A's in my life. (I read this when I first started Alanon)
After a few months in Alanon I was at an AA meeting one night with my sponsor. There was a newcomer and he said something to the effect,"yeah, I am just here because I beat my old lady and our new baby....where do I go for anger management". My skin was crawling. I was speechless. I couldn't say a word when it was my turn. When I walked down the stairs the man was walking with me and I was freaking out. My sponsor met me at the end of the stairs. I couldn't figure out why I felt this way and why I had such hate toward this guy.
My sponsor told me it was because I was starting to see the difference. Then, he went on to say a few months ago...you would have fallen in love with him and been that girl. He was right. I would have. A few months before that....I would have admired his honesty...lol...except the part about the baby....I would have just thought he was wonderful.
Maybe none of this has anything to do with what you are going through...but it is what came to my mind.
Please do not allow bad past relationships creep into your soul and poison it. There are splendid people out there...men and women...open your mind and eyes to the good, give each one a chance, and if you are disappointed, move on. You'll find wonderful, great, good, deserving friends if you convince yourself they are out there looking for you. Head up...straight and tall...
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Don't forget we are wired differently. After all, we are from Mars... you just got to keeps a heads up for the mens from Uranus -- they are out there, too...
learn to see people for who they really are... love has never been blind, so you shouldn't be either. learn, watch, see, question... take the honeymoon stage where it ought to be, on the honeymoon... and that is after you've CAREFULLY chosen a mate.
(opinion) most girls i know/been with/dated, have tried so hard, even with no chemistry to make our relationship work -- why couldn't they just be friends? i think because they have a picture in their mind about picking a man, checking off the checkmarks of qualities, and saying "okay, time to get married".... eeeeeek
cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
Well your post made me smile a little . When u lump all people into one catagorie your going to be mighty lonley caroline and that would be too bad . Alone is not good . I heard a tape along time ago where the girl was complaining to her sponsor a Male after geting out of another bad relationship Why can't I find a nice guy ? one who treats me with respect and want to please me occasionally . some one that I can trust for a change - her sponsor tired of her whinning stopped the car and said Why don't u work on becomming the kind of person that You want to attract. So tht when he comes along your ready for him . ?
She said that peed her right off but realized that what she wanted in a relationship was not what she was willing to give so she started to work on herself one more time. At the time that I heard her speak she wa about to be married . Louise
I guess I just always feel like guys think girls as friends is a waste of time and they are really just wanting sex and hoping that the friendship with go there quick. I know it's probably just my bad perception, I think I have always felt this way - don't know why.
Yes, men think about sex all the time. And when men are with other men, they quite often refer to various women in a sexual way - even if they are not involved in sex with that person, nor seriously wanting to be.
Now that we've got that out of the way....
I have several female friends that I am *very* attracted to. They are friends... they may be married or in another relationship, or for whatever reason, not available to me as potential sex partners. That doesn't make them any less attractive. I enjoy looking at them to be quite honest, and when I am by myself, I close my eyes and sometimes fantasize about them.
So what.... again, I invoke the Man Rule... any guy who says he doesn't think these thoughts about females he is attracted to is a liar!
Now if I were to share those thoughts with these women, they would have every right to be disgusted with me and probably want nothing more to do with me as a friend or otherwise.
There's a reason why we are not all telepaths! What we think is nobody's business but our own. Even on an anonymous board, I can say I have fantasies but I am not going to name names, or get into details... LOL.
Every once in a while, without deliberation, a guy (or gal) may reveal part of one of these thoughts. It's usually pretty embarrassing. Like being caught with eyes glued to the anatomy of a lovely waitress while out to dinner with your wife/girlfriend... or any one of a thousand other cliches.
Well, so what. I once had the misfortune of discovering my wife's discussion of my "performance" with an online friend. It's one of those things I should not have seen, ever, and there was good reason she wouldn't have said that to me. But.... having seen it, I can't forget it. Likewise, the reverse is true. There are thoughts in our heads that just ain't nobody's business but our own.
I should point out step 5 says, "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs".
It does not say, "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and the entire world every gory detail of every single rotten thing we ever did, said, or thought".
But there are some folks who read it that way, act accordingly, and wonder what happened.
For a long time, I really despised manhood for all of the reasons Carolina outlined... these things I saw in others, and in myself - it made me despise myself, and see myself as utterly unattractive to women, yet incredibly angry that these same women would be attracted to people I perceived as being even worse than me.. men who acted out those thoughts I kept to myself.
I don't know what makes a "good man". My grandfather rarely ever said an unkind word to anyone - I never saw anything in him that could be interpreted as lustful or selfish behavior. But then again, I never knew him when he was young.... and I couldn't read his mind... thank God.
I see alot of responses to your posting.......very lengthy, wordy, analytical responses.
I am just guessing that if you are running into "sex fiends", as you put it, that you are a very attractive, sexually desirable girl. Period. By the way, why would you expect anything other than a man just being a man? Remember, expectations of someone being different than they are is a set-up for resentment.......so ENJOY THE ATTENTION!
I am just guessing that if you are running into "sex fiends", as you put it, that you are a very attractive, sexually desirable girl. Period.
Good point! You can tell by my wordy, analytical response that I have no experience whatsoever being an attractive, sexually desirable guy... LOL. But hey, even we undesirable / NFW guys have our private thoughts, which tend to be waaaay out of our league.
Don't forget we are wired differently. After all, we are from Mars... you just got to keeps a heads up for the mens from Uranus -- they are out there, too...
cj
According to my 10yo son's book (scholastic press I might add) Zombie Butts from Uranus. I didn't know there were guys too. When reading him this at bedtime I pictured them as pretty adrogenous (sp?) butts. This of course was the thrilling sequel to The Day My Butt Went Psycho. Oddly this was NOT a book about active addiction/alcoholism.
Thanks HP, that kiddo makes me laugh !
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
I think it's because for me it felt like I wasted soo much time with my ex, the A, that all the good guys I could have had instead are taken. For a while I guess I thought instead of finding someone new who fits a better picture that I could fix the one I had or wait for him to change! Ha! Crazy.
Plus even though I'm not in a relationship with him anymore he still takes up time and energy because we have a child together and I can't just never have anything to do with him.
I was also thinking that the drama that goes along with being with an A can really keep you busy/make you feel needed. Take that away and all that's left is basis for a 'normal' functioning relationship. Imagine a relationship without alcohol being involved - I guess all you are needed for is sex? intimacy? I guess it could be a scary thought that someone might actually want us just for ourselves and not as something to suck the life out of (sorry haha).
I did have someone that was interested in me, after I broke up with my ex and I couldn't see anything wrong with him, so what did I do I ran the other way! I don't think there is any rush to get into a relationship though, the thought of being touched, or sex with anybody at the moment is still a turn off for me. I don't want to be a lonely spinster but I have to work on me still before I can be open to trusting someone enough to be intimate with them again.
, but I felt the urge to reply. 
