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Of course I've learned from experience(tons of experience) that calling AH on a lie leads to nothing good at all. I don't need to describe or explain how that goes,I'm sure you all already know.
I don't really want to just allow all the lying to be something he gets away with though. I don't want to let him think I'm that naive or gullible.
I'm trying to find a way to convey that I know he's lying without it being too mean or provoking. I sure don't want to say "I know you're lying" . So I'm thinking maybe just saying "I don't believe that" or "I know that's not true" but only/if I am able to not JADE afterwards.
Sunny, I don't have exact experience in confronting someone about their lies or denials, but I can share some ideas that came up for me.
I will say, the most important thing for me was that *I* knew the person was lying/hiding something. I knew that I was not fooled. That was more important than the other person knowing that I was not fooled. Truth would come out eventually, maybe in Higher Power's time, not mine. It was NOT fun knowing that someone was trying to fool me, but I didn't have anything to gain by tugging on that rope.
I wonder if some of the responses often suggested in Al-Anon would work? Just saying "Okay," or "mmm-hmm" or "I'll have to think about that" or whatever calm, non-committal response.
When I first found out that I had been naïve and gullible, it made me angry. Discovering the truth was quite a shock. Repeating to myself (not out loud) some sayings like "alcoholics drink, it's what they do" or "alcoholics lie, it's what they do" could help me get into a more accepting state of mind.
When I knew in my own mind that I was no longer that naïve and gullible, it didn't matter what someone else thought. If I know the truth, I can stand tall no matter what.
Good Morning SunnyFrogs. Your post freaked me out. This a.m. I was reflecting on the quote "the lies we tell others pale in comparison to the lies we tell ourselves ". I am making a concerted effort to apply Freetime 's very wise share. Last time AH told me a doozy, I shrugged and said "maybe you're telling the truth, maybe you're not." and walked away. ( Later that week, I accidentally found a hiding spot of sleeping pills). It's futile and time consuming to argue/confront. What's in the dark, will be revealed in the light. Also during a recent trial, a prosecutor stressed to the jury "believe what you are seeing." I am ashamed to admit I became so sick, I ignored my own senses. I try to use energy on improving myself. I am uncovering goals/values/beliefs that became smothered while riding the rollercoaster. Anyways, I don't know if this helps you, but you helped me. Last night, I heard a speaker say "fake it till you face it". So I see now that when I am not honest with myself, everything I do is a lie. Sending you blessings. Thanks also Freetime. Have a great day.
I know I have had much experience of being gas lighted
For me watching lots of You tube videos on the topic has helped. You tube can be a source of frustration but it xam.ma NH e certain theories very accessible.
So has coming to terms with addiction I can see how so many people will do anything to preserve their addiction It is no longer between me and their addiction However I am no longer in a relationship with someone on that level. I have other relationships that are less intense I think that is one of the keys for me around alcoholism. There is all that intensity
I have plenty of dysfunction in my life Really plenty of it. Just not the soul chasing total upheaval that goes with alcoholism Maresie
-- Edited by Maresie888 on Sunday 6th of June 2021 04:22:15 PM
Freetime, I have been using the Al-anon suggested responses. It's been working but I can't help but wonder if he truly does believe I'm that naive and gullible. The more I do that the more he seems to lie and have ridiculous stories and excuses.
I just want to find a way to let him know I am not stupid,I know he's lying,in a civil way. I don't want to feel like I am just appeasing or placating him.
Debb,I don't pay much attention to the petty little lies. And some things really are my business . If I go to buy groceries(fake example) and find out the bank account has been emptied when I try to pay with a debit card ,that IS my business. If I am told some silly story that someone broke into the house overnight,got in his wallet,stole the card then must have broke back in and put it back, that's not something I want to play along with to avoid an argument. But I also don't want to argue, hence the reason I'm asking for ESH on this.
Daffodils, thanks for your share. The lies we tell ourselves, yeah,those ones are hard for me to face sometimes. But I am finally coming out of denial.
I am really working on myself too. I guess I should have clarified the types of lies I meant in my post. Not the he is lying about using/drinking ones but rather ones that need to be addressed. I would much rather avoud them altogether but sticking my head in the sand affects my personal wellbeing
Maresie,just saw your response after posting mine.
You're like I am,always finding self help through books,videos,etc. They really are helpful aren't they?
My therapist once told me that all my relationships are so intense because all the people in my life are so intense. That's when I began deleting people from my life. I am finding though that it's better for me to work on myself cause there's always going to be intensity. I really am better off without many of them though.
Sunny, I just hate it when someone lies to me and they know theyre lying and I know theyre lying but I kind of like what free time sad and also what Everyone said here was a good thing to ponder. I had to lie when I was young because of the offenses and crimes going on in the house I was forced to lie and I lied willingly because I was so ashamed and so in denial of the abuse and the other horrendous criminal acts that he was doing. So I became a consummate liar but as I grew up I just hated that in Me and when I escaped for good , I became more and more and more comfortable being honest but I had no chat I mean I would just speak what I had to say And if it hurt, so what
My alcoholic brother is very honest, shock theater, because alcoholics tend not to be honest but he is and so I havent had to confront a willful liar but if I did I think I would just let them know in a very tactful way Like those very good Al-Anon sayings that FT brought up would be a good one. I think it would depend on the lie. Like if it were something like adultery or something very serious like that, I think I would let them know I am not buying into the BS, confrontation with somebody who is an active drinker usually doesnt work very well because they will either keep lying or they will fight you. So is it worth it? To confront somebody where are you know the outcome of that confrontation is not going to work well? I know it sucks being lied to but were talking about someone who is an active alcoholic and most of them are in capable of being honest with themselves so how are they going to be honest with their loved ones? I think the Al-Anon little sayings would be the best thing to do and then just tell yourself that its nothing to do personally with you. If he lies to you, he lies to everybody else close to him and even not close to him. When we are lied to, we feel like it is because of some short coming in us a lot of times but it is not. It is his defect and his bad karma and nothing to do with you, it is the disease that has taken over his honesty and integrity and it is sad. Its just another thing that is reflective of alcoholism. They lie and a lot of them cheat and a lot of them become violent, the disease takes over the good in them a lot of times. Im sorry that you are seeing another dimension of active alcoholism
Honestly,I know all of you are right in what you say. I just don't want you to be.
Recently I knew AH was lying but I didn't call him out on it,just said oh,ok. But then I overheard him telling someone about it and was laughing about it, that he had got away with it, making me sound so naive and gullible.
That hurt. And that's the real reason I was trying to find a way to let him know I know when he's lying.
It doesn't feel good at all to be made to look like a fool. And I guess this really is just about my ego.
Oh I love what TT set above me--oh did you say something?--That is beautiful and what you did about saying you had your own thoughts about it was cool too. And somebody said something about ego and I hate being lied to because it is my perception they think I am stupid or something but I know I am not stupid so I guess detachment and just realizing and accepting that they have a disease and theyre not going to do any better unless they dry out and get into recovery and work a stringent program, I am shoveling against the tide trying to think that things are ever going to get any better. I guess thats why I am divorced two times because I got sick of all of it and I wanted a healthy life even if it meant going alone but thats just me some people can stay and make this work but it takes a lot of work on the Al-Anon person in the way of detachment and more detachment and just blowing it off I am working our own program and just keeping the focus on ourselves. The people who successfully stay with an active alcoholic, I noticed they are very good at detachment and keeping the focus on themselves and building up themselves by hanging out with other Al-Anons and getting the support and working the steps and the slogans. I chose not to live that way but thats me, Ive seen a lot of people Successfully live with it but with a strong program
Sunnyfrogs, I just felt I had to share after reading your post & replies.
The first huge lie (my spouse's meth use of years) actually caused me a form of CPTSD. It shook me to my core, and overturned every single belief I grew up with and had formed as a single, young adult. That part of our marital disfunction was never truly addressed IMHO. He was in rehab, and I was just supposed to "get past it, and be supportive." I faked it till I "made" it. Or at least until I thought I made it. The only boundary I had when I took him back (8 months later), was that I would not ever live with addiction again. Period. I knew it, he knew it. I also wanted separate accounts, both money and health insurance (the areas that affected me and kid the worst).
So I couldn't believe when the "behaviors" returned. Of course, they returned once he felt he could "handle recovery on my own." Because I went back to him for my son, I did the best I could to stay on my side of the street, and to mean what I say, but not say it mean, when I needed to. As the alcohol abuse became worse, I worked harder at managing the household - that was essential, but came with it's own set of "problems" on my end. I also went to Al-Anon. I KNEW there was issues with him abusing things, but I couldn't prove it, and I was gas-lit until I didn't know which end was up! That is when I found the "Grey Rock Technique" and employed it A LOT. That eventually turned into accusing me of "not caring." Many of those times, I responded with, "I DO care, and I love you, but I know what is the truth, and you are not showing me the truth. I am trying to stay within my hula hoop and not argue(of course he knows 12-Step talk)... then I would leave the room and do something outside usually. My sponsor kept drumming into me, that the only important thing was MY TRUTH. What he thought about what I believed was irrevelant b/c he was an addict.I believe it helped me tremendously to understand the addicted mind, and accept that lying is what addicts do. However, understanding and accepting this did not keep me from developing some issues with trust and safety.
When this WOL all came to a head, I had to truly evaluate what I wanted and needed. I needed to feel safe - in every sense of the word. I could arrange things so safety is a reality. I also needed to TRUST - perhaps more than I needed to feel safe. I realized that I could never fully trust my spouse ever again, and that I had zero control of this issue with him. I then accepted that was a hard boundary for me - perhaps one that is a "personal flaw." So no matter how much I may love him, I couldn't be partnered with him moving forward. It will be 4 years in August... I can still struggle. But I have this program to help me through the rough spots. I am so thankful for the people here on this site!
Thank you for sharing your difficulties... none of this is fun... or easy. That is why I appreciate that this program is "gentle" with it's members! &
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Sunday 6th of June 2021 01:53:45 PM
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Sunday 6th of June 2021 01:54:19 PM
__________________
"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
SunnyFrogs, my As lying tore my heart out, over and over and over yet again! Now I have 8-9 years under my belt in program. So a few years ago I came to accept that the lying was part of the addiction, part of the alcoholic personality, and something that my A had been doing since childhood. I knew I could not believe what was being said, and yes this came with a great deal of sadness, and even though things have improved a lot, I dont have the trust I used to have and would want in a marriage. Having said that, my A is attending a different 12 step program, and progress is happening. This also did not happen overnight and included a number of failed attempts at recovery. Bottom line for me: Let go and let God, Live and let live, and keep the focus on myself.
SF - it's truly an annoyance to me - I'm not thrilled being lied to...especially when the truth is sitting in the same room, often at the same table with me/us. What I've come to realize is that when I allow the words, choices, behaviors of others to affect my mood, attitude, outlook and/or day, I'm willingly choosing to give away my power. I must remember always that I truly am powerless over other people, places and things and getting sucked into the insanity of anybody else - spouse, kid, parent, friend, etc. is counterproductive to my own recovery/program.
I arrived with distorted thinking that suggested those I love value what I value and to the same degree. I also believe that we all defined love, honesty, integrity, etc. 'exactly the same'. I have come to realize that when we are created to be perfectly imperfect, that includes what we value, how we love, etc. While it would be lovely to find and engage with only like-minded, identical-thinking persons, that in itself is unrealistic and part of my insanity. I have had to rethink many things, and find my way to authenticity for me while allowing others to be who they are/need to be.
Tools for me include the abbreviated serenity prayer - Bless Them, Change Me....as well as detaching when/if necessary. Our world would be a better place if only ......................................... just doesn't work well for me in the grand scheme of reality. Yet, I can do my part to be the best version of me and today, that's enough!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Thanks for all the responses here,I truly appreciate it.
I know AH lies,I know he always has and always will. Overhearing him laugh about getting away with it and laughing about me to someone really got to me though. I have been seething and hurting since it happened and wasn't able to let go of it. If I hadn't overheard him it wouldn't have got to me so much.
He doesn't know I overheard him. By coming here and talking about it I was able to not confront him. If I had I would have just ended up more hurt than I already was because he would have lied about lying and about saying that to someone. So I guess that's a bit of progress for me.
Thank you all for being here. I'm just gonna let this go now and move on from it.
(((SF))) - progress is always what we truly aspire for/to....you are doing great and I am sorry for the hurt...it does stink to overhear ridicule and what not from another that's supposed to love/care for us.
For what it's worth, when I was active with the disease, I attracted 'less than stellar friends' who would have found humor in this setting. As I ponder the depth that this disease reaches, I can't help but feel profound gratitude that I'm in a different, better place with much healthier relationships and real friends vs. the alternative.
Hang in there. I have found that the more I take the high road, detach from the insanity and choose to not engage, the less there is for mine to latch onto for ridicule/manipulation. The more authentic and true to myself I become, the less likely these situations will hurt - simply because I can classify it as diseased, crazy thinking/words. Not always pain-free, but it does get easier...(((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
SunnyFrogs - thank you for posting this and all the ESH it has generated.
In my own experience, the lying - the bigger lying eg stealing and selling my treasured jewellery left to me by my parents to fund his addiction, ultimately meant for me that my trust was destroyed. My AH has not yet entered recovery and sadly may never will.
I fully appreciate many people choose to stay with their APs, but for me, without trust, even knowing that the disease was beneath it all, ultimately destroyed our relationship. We still have contact for the children and I guess I just cope by accepting that everything may be a possible lie. I also use the grey rock technique described by PnP above, just to be able to give a response of some sort, whilst being able to maintain my own serenity.
Wishing you all the best. BT
Lying for me is the same as dealing with un-reality and so with that attitude I don't participate. The liar is doing it for a reason, fear, anger, lack of personal truth or self control etc. I don't participate because the shorter I do the shorter the problem, kinda like a win, win. Good subject and yes I do know when I am being lied to. sucks
(((SF))) - I can share that when I began to get healthier in recovery and make changes, mine also did not like it....consistency from me led to a reluctance acceptance that I no longer desired to 'do the dance' and in time, things steadied. Keep doing what you're doing and trust your progress, your program and your HP!! You got this!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Great share SF and so true. It is a new day and we get to start with a clean slate. We are all about progress and not perfection. If you are like me, BR (Before Recovery), you would have responded in kind and felt totally justified. With recovery, we work to find new ways - some work better than others and the only way to figure out what works best in your home is trial and error. Just keep trusting your program and process - it all looks great on you!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
SF - There were many days of 1 step forward, 2 steps back for me early on. Keep supporting YOU. Eventually, 99% of your steps will be forward!
Hugs
__________________
"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
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