The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Walked into chat, it was chaos... why are we not listening to each other & reaching out in unity as Trad 1 suggests?
I just saw a girl mention suicide & poof was gone b/c of the feeding frenzy that went off-track over the debate of "religion" & God.
Being suicidal in the passed, it hurts, I hope the girl comes back & everyone didn't put her off or scare her to death.
Trad 2 says 'we have 1 authority a loving God as we undertand' HP.
I get offended when ppl refer to God as "he" to me that is catholic based, but I don't go nuts about it. God is much more than a gender. I also don't believe in our human experiences we are 'supposed' to be able to fully comprehend God.
I just hate it when ppl are hurting, coming in for the first time & ppl act a fool.
I am also dumbfounded by many of the comments that were made - about God shouldn't be mentioned... where would any of us be?
This IS a spiritual program, not a religious one. I prefer to think of the golden rule, to treat others as I wish to be treated... this means sometimes I am confrontational so that I can explain my personal boundaries, forgiveness, acceptance & an inclusivity.
Hey, we're here to heal not attack each other... I realize we are abused & hurt ~ just like wounded dogs sometimes we bite other back.
I relate when someone feels suicidal ~ I know not everyone goes through those desperate times... I talked about suicidal ideations for 21 yrs, lots of frineds & family members said, they "never felt as hopeless, desperate or depressed as I did."
love & 'let it begin with me, when anyone is hurting, let the hand of al-anon reach out to them', hopefully there was simply some weird, crazy wind in the air & everyone comes back down to Earth & realizes we're here to help not attack or defend but share our ESH. - Kitty of Light (trying to find the light)
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
As a non-religious newcomer, I must admit that last night's arguments over religion did put me off a bit, but I chose to ignore it all together. I'm not going to let it turn me off because just like in offline life, I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'm always going to like what people say and do.
I hope that Lisa is okay. She did give an email address if you scrolled back and I emailed her. I'm not sure what I can offer her, but maybe knowing that some of us in the room last night WERE listening will help.
Kelly
PS-I meant to ask this last night in chat...what does ESH stand for? I'm getting most of the abbreviations, but that one I can't figure out.
Alanon is NOT allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization, or institution: does not engage in any controversy: neither endorses nor opposes any cause.
I beleive that the use of "HP" (higher power) is a safe and a non upsetting way to use, and is within the comfort of all others. Forcing your own beliefs onto another just takes away from the prime directive of this Alanon program, and religion and topics of such should not become part of the alanon discussion, period. That is not why we are here.
Alanon has but ONE PURPOSE: to help families of alcoholics......
Yes Garden Gal & I appreciate & understand your response. I know we are not to endorce or engage in religious or political or any other controversial talk.... I know exactly why I am here, to heal from my abusive past.
FYI Trad 2 uses the word God, Steps 3, 5, 6 & 11 use the word God, so I feel using "God" in place of Higher Power is my personal choice.
This is a spiritual program & I am merely recovering the diamond & divine human I am under layers of an onion, I continue to peel away & let go of.
I am grateful to be a member of al-anon for 22 years & have gotten loads of help on this site, in live chat & expressing myself in meetings.
Your sister in recovery, -K
-- Edited by kitty at 13:50, 2006-04-12
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
((Kitty)) You did walk in to a mess, albeit in the middle w/o knowing how the problem came to be.
I guess I would be one of the sharks... since I was one of the moderators at the time and attempting to keep the room civil. I've also been called a Natze for kicking someone from the chat that has been idle way too long (per MIP rules). Although opinions do matter, what anyone thinks of me and upholding the rules of the position I volunteered for does not.
That being said.. What was going on lastnight was NOT just caused by a simple mention of the word "God". It was caused by someone pushing their beliefs on others.
Firstly, when we enter chat we are "guests". Yes, everyone is welcome.. as long as they are not disruptive. There are chatroom rules for just this reason and all ALL that enter are expected to abide while visiting the room. When a moderator asks someone to stop talking of a specific religion or sect it is not for the sake of argument but to prevent exactly what happened.
I will leave out names to protect anonymity and normally would not bring this from chat to the board, but I feel everyone here needs to understand why this can upset (and did) the room and why the rules are in place to say "Higher Power" and that is so it will be all inclusive. One of the first statements this newbie got was:
if you belive in GOD you might want to try reading the bible. Pray and ask GOD
Immediately others spoke up and said that Alanon is not only for Christians and were put off by the God talk. At this point I simply asked that the word "Higher Power" or "HP" be used. My request was ignored .
And then it began..... With the person feeling the need (and stating so) to share their particular faith and make sure newbies knew of it because "where would they hear it if not from us"?. Along with that came the insistance that ""Spirituality IS GOD" Then the specific question to the newbie "Are you Catholic" The newbie said she was raised Catholic. The person said "Ah, yes, I can see where this is coming from".
AGAIN..a member asked that the religion be left at the door, another stating that religion has nothing to do with recovery.. along with several other member's comments that were offended.
Again ignored and further comments ensued like "you must trust in the lord Jesus"
I'm not going to go through the whole scenerio, but it wasn't pretty and yes, you can call those that were offended Sharks... Or it could be turned the other way around, those that were asking the God talk be stopped felt like a religion shark was attacking them!!
I have taken the stance of JADE many times in the room and continue to do so. JADE=Do not Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain.
But in this case, for group purpose I feel I need to Explain why the rules of the chatroom must be upheld. When we talk of a specific religion or sect it creates division and chaos amongst the many varying religions or lack thereof.
Sprituality is not Jesus/God. Ask a Muslim, a Buddhist an American Indian and you will get a very different answer as to where their spirituality lies.
No matter how anyone feels about their particular religion, it is to be left at the door of the Alanon chatroom. Everyone is free to say "My HP has shown me the way, the truth and light", or whatever. But no one has the right to to tell someone to go read the Bible to save their soul, just as they should not tell anyone they will find the answers to the meaning of life in the Muslim Holy Quran.
Christy
-- Edited by Christy at 12:28, 2006-04-12
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
AMEN Christy! You go girl! I was not in the chatroom last night. I actually have been avoiding it for my own personal reasons. However I do appreciate your upholding these rules. One of the things I enjoy the most about al-anon is I do not get anyone elses religious belief's shoved down my throat.
Being new here and all. I have a few questions as I am trying to learn the rules of chat...
I wasnt in the room when the situation came up so i really dont knwo what was said other than what has been posted here. My question is the refering to God vs HP
I personally beleive that God is my higher power and really only feel comfortable to refer to him as such. The god of my understanding.. Does this offend is my question. and if it does how do we find the fine line where both the offendee and offender are comfortable. I say God a lot not HP. Is that a problem??
I love the chat room and would never want anyone to stay away because of something i said.
Many people say "God" in reference to their HP and can certainly do so. The problem comes in when people push that on someone else or become preachy by going on about what their particular religion or God is and does...or should/could do for everyone else.
I like using HP in reference to the God of my understanding it pulls the group together as a whole and whoever has an HP of any kind can relate, rather then feel excluded or seperate. This is one way of reaching out to others via Alanon practices. I won't say it was uncomfortable for me to HP at first, more "unusual". I know who my HP is, my HP knows who I am. I came to the conclusion that even though it felt odd at first, I would say "HP" and that my HP didn't care what I called him, as long as I continued to call upon him.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
(((cjo)) thanks & I appreciate what u said & realize you already have enough to deal with but…
~ I'm just a bit confused ~ I do understand taking the religion out of our Program & why. Trad 2 says "For our group purpose there is but one authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern."
I also believe I comprehend the other 11 Traditions we uphold.
In our 12 Steps it reads: studying these steps are essential to progress in the Al-anon program & the principles they embody are Universal.
Step 2 says "HP", step 3 says "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." Step 5 says "God", step 6 says, "God" & step 11 says "God"
Jesus was a Jew & bore Christianity... it is confusing to me that the word "God" is an issue when it is in our steps, we say the 'Serenity Prayer' which is Christian & follow every meeting w/ the "Lord's Prayer." Beginning every meeting with the steps clearly spelled out mentioning God 4 times & only a “power greater than ourselves” once.
It bugs me as a Christian that we say the "Lord's Prayer" ~ to my this is dichotomous & hypocritical, I prefer to think of God as the Divine Force of Love, Light & Creator of ALL things.
If this is a Spiritual Program & we cannot use the term God, the steps ought to be changed, & the Lord's Prayer ought to not be said, may as well ditch the Serenity Prayer too.
Where would our Program be without God? Perhaps those that don’t believe ought to be in a non-believing room, when the ODAT book says, we pray & apply these steps in all our affairs?
I understand taking religion out of it as it is a means to manipulate ppl politically, historically. If we can't be mature enough to do this or those that are atheists, Hindus, Jews (I don't know who I'm leaving out) ~ I mean we all know the program is based on fundamental Christian Principles.
We come into the chat room & do not see a "flash" of rules that pop up ~ how is a new person to know what is "allowed" to say & what is considered "unacceptable?" I curse like a sailor but being respectful of other’s I don’t appreciate seeing “biiaaatchh” up there like we are all in 7th grade.
True there were new ppl in there, I spoke to the girl that sd, 'r u catholic' & told her in PM we don't discuss religion in the program as many of us feel our religions have burnt, scarred us & let us down, plainly. Also that we do not engage in controversy. She was new too & any OP ought to have just taken her aside & said so.
But with all of this hypocrisy to say I cannot call the "god of my understanding 'God" ~ well I won't denounce God. I have never talked about reincarnation or Zen Buddhism in the chat room & as a baptized Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy (pre-Popes & the Roman Catholic Church), if I can keep my beliefs to myself... why can’t others take the spirituality & leave the religion, so that we can share in the inclusivity & Universality of what God is?
Furthermore I would never try to convince anyone of anything nor would I try to manipulate someone, nor do I expect to be treated in such a way. I do understand my Higher Power as the Universal Godhead of all & it is offense that the Divine Creator of All be called "he." IMHO, this idea of God being a “he” came from the Catholics & it is offensive that anyone would narrow God down to a gender!
I also am only willing to give my own ESH, as I would never want to be told what to do, we share what has worked for us we do not give each other advice.
After 22 yrs, in & out of Al-anon, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of it, I can leave Vishnu, Krishna, Buddha & Jesus at the door ~ to me they are all aspects of the same God, that same spark of creative, free will & divine energy we all have been created in that image, light & to have that free choice in ourselves.
To me God is simply Energy, the impetus behind all that happens & we are all connected.
Maybe I need to leave Al-anon forever, I will never stop calling God, God ~ or would the Mystical Trinity be a better term? I feel like I'm losing freedom of speech everywhere, besides, this was not my point to begin with... a spouse of an A was talking about suicide… this girl was in great pain. Where is our empathy & compassion? Where is “Let it begin with me?”
I know what feeling & thinking about suicide is like, everyone went nuts arguing, when we are "supposed" to be helping each other cope & offering support & comfort.
This smacks of (essentially) being told to “shut up” when a newbie has the misfortune of coming in during a mtg ~ no welcome, listen, learn, share, open chat at 10:30 EST ~ just the cold wall of *** NO CROSSTALK ***
If that had been my first interaction with Al-anon, I would have thought it was the least compassionate or understanding Program ever devised to keep those suffering with Alcoholism, right where they are, stuck & being told to remain being abused.
Maybe there out to be a goof off room, separate from the first main room, where ppl that want to talk Program & about 'the God as we understand it' & those that need to crack jokes, slap each other with trouts & act a fool go. I personally hate the trout slapping & know that other's do too, maybe that ought to be reserved for Friday's in a different silly room, where non-sense reigns supreme.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
Kitty, The question "Are yuou Catholic?" was not asked by a newbie. It was asked by a fairly long member OF the newbie. Again, there is no problem with the "God" word when referring to the God of our understanding. It is when whatone of us understand to be God is pushed on another (I'm aware you do not do this).
You said: To me God is simply Energy, even that may be offensive to someone that believes HP is something different. and also: It bugs me as a Christian that we say the "Lord's Prayer" ~ to my this is dichotomous & hypocritical, I prefer to think of God as the Divine Force of Love, Light & Creator of ALL things. and I say EXACTLY!! Your reference is different then some others of what "God" is.. This is the whole point of saying HP, to avoid the conflict.
Ya know, I don't have all the answers as far as why the Lord's Prayer is still at the end of meetings. But I do know it specifically states the God of our understanding. Which can mean a million different God's as we understand him....I just moderate the room to the best of my ability and honor the rules of Alanon. The rules of chat are exactly the same as in a f2f meeting.
To me, since it says the God Of Our Understanding, that is the same God in any and all of the steps. It does not say the Christian God only. It allows a personal choice of what each of us understand our HP to be. The one of our understnding.
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
Hmmmmm, I missed it last night. We all come from various paths of life, and beliefs, but we come here because we have been affected by some else's drinking/addictions, not to influence one another's religious views.
For me, I use HP and God interchangeably, to me they are the same thing. As far as referring to God as "he", I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and God is referred to as "he", but to me, that has always just been more respectful than calling God "it", and "he/she" gets a little complicated. So, for the sake of simplification, a lot of people refer to God, or even HP, as a "he". It is just a manner of speaking, really.
I just hope the girl who was suicidal comes back. Remember, we might be the first, or only chance another person gets at Al-anon, we must be ready to receive new members at all times, and welcome them, as we were once welcome. I know when I first found this chatroom, I found immediate love and understanding and acceptance. This has been essential to my recovery. And to my life. I, too, have been suicidal. Alanon has saved me.
Let us once again band together, and help one another to understand and go on living in peace and joy, in spite of the way this awful disease has affected our lives. We are here for healing, and here for each other. Whether you believe God, Jesus, HP, or angels have helped you is not important to me in this room. What is important to me in this room is that we find the help we so desperately need.
Love in Recovery, and Thank You to all Chatroom members who have been there for me.((((kitty)))))
I came in at the tail end of that stuff and I too was surprised at how flippant many people were about your concern with that newbie.
I wrote that I had had that experience once also. I shared that once a girl had come in who was suicidal. I tried to comfort her as best I could, being a stranger not even knowing her real name. I told her to call the suicide hotline in her area, I told her she would probably feel better the next day, I told her I would pray for her, I encouraged her to let her feelings out, I did whatever I could not being a trained professional.
She shared a bit then abruptly left. I was beside myself with worry. I prayed for her as best I could. I was so worried I shared my concern with an alanon friend. I was comforted by the fact that she was probably better off than she was as she had known to come for help to a place were people would understand, and reaching out for any kind of help is a good sign that people are having healthy feelings of self preservation.
I shared all of this with you in chat to try and comfort you as best as I could.
I have had horrible experiences in chat, and have seen others treated horribly while the moderator stayed silent or went along with the vulgar and humiliating "jokes". Once a newbie came on talking about how she had saved herself from her A abuse with a very novel approach. I commended her creativity and the ability to keep a cool head and find a way to get away SAFE when a drunk is coming at you to do your serious bodily harm. A man in the chat began humiliating her, poking fun at her methods. I typed that I felt she was smart in what she did as she got away SAFE, it did not matter how she did it. This man kept on, mocking BOTH of us now, about how woman act immature and like babies and "think" that it is smart...SIGH! The moderator did nothing. This man then turned his attention to me for daring to stick up for the newbie. He mocked my program and tried to put me on the spot, asking me what exactly had I done to "think" that I had worked on the steps. He then tried to intimidate me, asking me if my alcoholic knew I was on chat and what I was sharing about him. Then he told me that if he were my alcoholic husband that he would throw my computer out of the window...I thought alanon was a SAFE place for us to share...
This man often mocked many women on the chat, and others started emailing me privately sharing their own "horror stories" of his flagrant emotional abuse to them and other women in the chat room. They encouraged me to join my voice with theirs in expressing our feelings to the moderator. I did so, and was told that he helped many others so I could 'take what I like and leave the rest". SIGH! That slogan does not cover over abuse.
Kitty, I also share many of your thoughts about religion in alanon. What I read in alanon books and what people say seem to be very different. Alanon was founded on christian principles and that is the very basis and foundation of it. Over time, alanon changed with the times to TRY and be more inclusive. However, the foundation of christianity is still very evident in the alanon program.
I also share your feelings about prayer at meetings being totally innappropriate but for surprising reasons.
I am a serious student of the bible and read it a lot. In Matthew chapter 6 verse 7 it says (in my current translation I am reading):
"But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words."
So, I PERSONALLY don't believe in "ritualistic prayer" such as the Lord's prayer, serenity prayer etc. however, I would never try to encourage others not to do it. Each person must communicate with God in their own way. I believe in pouring out your heart to God when you pray, expressing your feelings, not chanting someone else's memorized words like a parrot.
The two times in the past that I got up the courage to go to a F2F meeting it was EXCRUCiATINGLY uncomfortable. When they began their ritualized prayer I tried to discreetly excuse myself. I have no problems with other people praying THEIR way, and will stand silently and respectfully as they talk to God in their way, so all I did was leave the circle and go and stand in the corner of the room SILENTLY without a word. A couple of people went after me and grabbed my arm and tried to phsyically force me to join their circle of chanting. I know they "meant well" but where was that respect for other's beliefs? I happen to be a devout christian, but what if I was a Buddhist? Hindu? No one likes to feel like the "oddball" and singled out so publicly as being "different".
I then was FORCED to tell them why I did not want to join their chanting ritual. I said it discreetly and respectfully, that I don't engage in ritualistic prayer. You should have seen the looks I got! I felt like an alien in a circus with people staring at the "freak".
Afterwards a couple of people asked me if I was Christian, I told them yes, but that I had read in the bible that you should pray from your heart and pour out your feelings to God. They looked at me as if I had two heads.
I felt alone, unwanted, and rejected. They were clearly comfortable in their chanting ritual and did not like me coming in to THEIR group and making them uncomfortable by being "different". It was years before I tried another meeting and basically the same thing happened.
Yes, it is a spiritually based program, but if alanon really wants to be all inclusive, perhaps when prayer is called for at meetings it can be a moment of silence, while each prays SILENTLY in their own way that they feel comfortable with.
I have yet to try and brave another meeting...although an alanon friend who respects my christian beliefs has offered to go with me in support. Hopefully, being with another alanon friend will "break the ice" that I am not some sort of freak just because I pray differently than they do.
I was in chat room last night for a while during that "discussion". To be more accurate, I was in when it was extremely busy and everyone commenting about how fast it was moving on severall different conversations at once. It was hard to follow. I was also there when Lisa came in. Some of us did our best to assist Lisa as a newcomer, and I think she took that well.
However, when the religion topic started to take a turn, I left. First, I was tired and needed to sleep. Second, I did not want to hear a sermon and I could tell that direction was where it was headed.
I have no problem with using HP and God interchangeably. It is all the same to me and having my own beliefs, I don't inflict them or discuss them or accept such a discussion in Alanon. It is an endless topic, and I have an appreciation for the rules of Alanon; they are there for good reasons.
As for ending with the Lord's Prayer, we can take what we want and leave the rest, according to our alanon traditions. We can choose to do that.
I'm glad I didn't stay for the rest of the chat. I respect anyone who reminds us of our traditions.
I wasn't there last night, but I have been there when the room gets a little crazy. As an Op I have had a hard time stopping the room for a new comer to share. It takes all of us together to retify this problem. Remember the most important person in any Alanon room is the newcomer. We all all in service together in open chat to help all in need, not just the OP's.
As for religion, this goes around every month or so, and it is a take what you like and leave the rest as it comes to closings, it has been voted on in the GC meeting and will remain until voted on differently as in any Alanon meeting, it is handled at a business meeting. If you want it put on the agenda and discussed again, it can be done, but please make sure you are at the meeting to state your case.
As for asking a persons specific religion, would that be done at a f2f, I think not. If it were, I think it would be brought out to the persons attention that it has no bearing on our recovery. I know one person who's higher power was his dog, until he really understood the program and found a real power higher than himself to believe in. It was through the work of his program that brought him to this level. All who enter MIP are not at the same level of recovery.
I myself am a very religious person, but this program has made me a very spiritual person now and I now understand the great difference in those words. I have seen how a person could be offended by bible passages being quoted in the chat room. It's the same as pooring beer down the throat of someone who hates it. There are many times I have a passage in mind for a persons specific problem, but I rephrase it and don't quote as a passage. We keep religion out of Alanon, AA, NA as not to offend any who enter our programs, there are too many types of religion and beliefs to enter into this type of discussion, in a room filled with people from all over the world.
Let's all take a deep breath and put last evening behind us and try and handle the next situation in a manner as not to offend anyone and to help everyone.
Josey
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Julianne - It's best to move on. You cannot look back in anger in life. It's too short
Ahh, you know, those car accidents on road -sort of where the traffic goes so slow, at a snails pace because some people just feel they need to take a look see. That is what comes to mind. For me I am one who once upon the accident purposely does not look. I am likely to be more upset that I have been sitting on the road and pondering why others have taken their eyes off the road, (for the thrill, to see how bad it is, to contribute to the problem by perhaps causing another accident?) and knowing that they are contributing to the slow down of the normal flow and that their actions have then resulted in me being late for my own destination. Not to be confused with concern and a prayer that those actually involved in the accident are ok as I pass. By slowing down for whatever reason people are taking their time and energy ‘focusing’ somewhere else surely not on the road, keeping their eyes up and aware of their own destinations.
That said, because of this post I did some research because there seems to be a few things that has you upset here. One being the HP of your understanding being called a “He” the other was a newbie speaking of suicide and perhaps in your eyes not given the attention you felt the newbie should have received. You wrote: Being suicidal in the passed, it hurts, I hope the girl comes back & everyone didn't put her off or scare her to death. And: I just hate it when ppl are hurting, coming in for the first time & ppl act a fool.
When something happens and I feel the need to look for answers that is a good thing. I get my own wheels spinning and learn new things too. I may be taking the focus off me, however I feel this served as a good lesson for me in my recovery program. Not much more I can add to be on the point then what gardengal, Christy and Josey said. Except this: because once again the chat room is being painted in a not so pleasant light. Attraction vs. Promotion comes to the forefront of my mind
Have you heard that Al-Anon is program of attraction rather than promotion? Meaning, we don’t sell Al Anon. Others see the changes in us and wish to have the same. They may wonder how we got to where we are -then we inform them of our program and what has work for us. Another will be attracted to the program because of the positive effects they ‘see’ One place I have found this explained Tradition 11 in Paths To Recovery However an excellent example of what sums up this whole reply is in fact Tradition One. Our common welfare should come first; personal progress for the greatest number depends upon unity.
I hope you feel better kitty having let all this out wishes, t
Christy, I appreciate your help in sorting through it today.... I told that girl, the personal religious question ought to have been asked in PM (at best) ~ that religion has hurt my family immeasurably~ I'm so releived your son is ok.
Isabella, I understand & agree with what you said, ty for sharing that passage. I too have been hurt in chat by other but having so much Program under my belt, I'm not going to let someone having a bad day or being in a "controlling mood" to turn me away (but I know better & I'm a pretty stubborn person). Besides I know the truth! This has helped me to gain some serenity & I won't let go ~ sure I can look the other way when certain prayers are used, as can everyone else if they like.
Tea, yes, I brought up Trad 1, I understand the other 11~ if last night was my first time in chat (like I sd previously), being attracted to Al-anon 22 years ago, I 'would have thought Al-anon was just as insensitive as the addicts I know'.
Josey, I would never bring up this issue at a GC mtg, Christianity is what the Program is based on & I think anyone of a different religion would sense the dichotomy based on our prayers. It is loud & clear. I do the smae thing too, I make quotes & never reveal where they come from so ppl don't attack me or a misunderstanding begins.
I think I like what Isabella sd, I do like free flowing prayers & understand what u meant by "ritualistic praying" just maybe the other's at your mtg didn't.
It is like a genius with a new idea ~ they are told they are crazy... surely loads of ppl thought Jesus was crazy, Leonardo da Vinci, Einstein... new ideas & innovators are historically considered 'crazy.'
I would never "dismiss" God & I how am virtually unoffendable even have my weak areas! Saying God didn't exisist, was about "it" for me. I am nothing w/out God. i realize religions have hurt us, this is why I am sensitive to it.
I still think ppl get carried away & are sometimes not paying attention to anew person, I've also been in there when ppl jumped all over a new person, that probably would make them feel like they were being interrogated.
Also why in my 3rd post here, I mentioned all sorts of things (oh yeah I forgot about astrology, science & meta-physics for that matter) ~ these are just ideas we are kicking around... at one time the world was flat! & we didn't know about other planets. At one time creating fire was "witchery."
Does anyone know it is a proven statistic that the night b4 a full moon, there are more accidents than any other night (which was last night btw).
I know we are human, have issues, are mentally sick from the effects of this disease, also we get moody, hurt, lash out & suffer from our own egos at times. I know that abuse is a cycle, it is hard to let go of ALL manipulation when we are manipulated for so long, I'm sensitive to "control" now that I am getting better.
As there are many roads to God I also think there are many roads to recovery, our experiences are so different I think HP has to reach us, talk to us in ways we can understand. Most of the time the truth hurts & it is uncomfortable at first.
I sure got upset when I was told in therapy at 15 after a suicide attempt that "no one can 'make you' feel any certain emotion, you agree or buy into it." Just like coming here & being confronted with the fact that we are active participants in this disease, is a bitter pill but is the beginning of our recoveries... taking responsibility for ourselves.
I think this has been an interesting thread, thanks to everyone that participated & everyone that read. I do my best not to offend others, be thoughtful of the words I choose to use here (& in responses).
IMHO, it got out of hand simply b/c we weren't being recorded by OP Pres, so there is no black & white proof of how the "mob rules" or feeding frenzy began.
I am grateful to have a spot to come, vent, voice my individual opinion & own it. I'll continue to use my freedom of speech.
God or the divine being, lead me right back into Al-anon & I am eternally grateful neither one of my suicide attempts worked, grateful I have a voice, today, I'm even grateful for the differences of opinion ~ gives me something to think about. Sure would be boring if I could only get strawberry ice cream!
I've clung to this site with all of my life, it has been a matter of life/death for me, I have managed to get by & allow my hard work to really get me through a difficult year, thanks to all the bright souls here & God & the Program.
love you all, -K
-- Edited by kitty at 02:02, 2006-04-13
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
We all have to remember that this program "the way it is" not altered,, has helped many millions of people around the world. This chat room is a stepping stone for many to get to "real meetings" and seek the help they truly need . Lets keep it that way and not stray from the parameters of what alanon truly is. This is just a place where people for whatever reason have not entered those doors to a "face top face" meeting, yet,,, so lets not deter them from doing so. As we all know the real face to face is where the true healing begins.
Our common welfare should come first; personal progress for the greatest number depends upon unity. That is an tradition of al-anon, yes?
No need to rehash the specific conversations from the episode in chat the other night, what was disconcerting to me was that a brand new person came to al-anon, hurting, upset, and needing someone to talk to, and was, for the most part, ignored. I've never been in chat before when someone new, or someone wanting to share, didn't provoke an immediate change of focus in there, turning to the hurting person. On that night it didn't happen, except for just a couple of roomies trying to reach out to this new one. The constant downloading of music, which incessantly came, in bright, bold, backrounds of non-verbage, rolled on, while this confused person wondered, in writing, if anyone cared? Yes, an argument arose over religion, which always has the propensity of backlash. All this was happening while someone who had never been here before, who was so troubled that she said she was considering suicide, sat there watching the people to whom she came for help, arguing and actually insulting each other's beliefs. As a group, we couldn't even manage to stop long enough to remember that we are in a chat room labeled "al-anon family group", where: Members give and receive comfort and understanding through a mutual exchange of experiences, strength and hope.
Ironic that people who were ignoring a crying, brokenhearted person, had plenty of energy to jump into and engage in a religious argument when someone who was trying to help the newbie, happened to refer to religion as a means to reach out to the hurting one.
I was welcomed into Al-anon by this message: NO CROSSTALK. I had arrived, on my first effort to receive specific knowledge, information, guidance and perhaps compassion, during a meeting. Because one or two very special people dared to break protocal at the meeting and (cross)talk to me, long enough to say, "please stay", I did. It made all the difference to me that "rules" were broken in order to welcome me my first day, and my life is a different one with your help. I got over my surprise of how I was received, and listened. What I heard, in the shares, filled my heart. I heard people say this is a place where spirituality matters, and that we use the term HP so as to not offend, but whatever term we use to describe HP as we individually embrace it, is ok. I was amazed by that approach, and so relieved. All were encouraging and supported in a recovery achieved by growth in spiritual awareness.
It was a wonderful day for me, and my life has changed so much since then. I had already been on a process of spiritual growth, and as part of that process was led to this site. I am so grateful and blessed to have found this program, and to have found the incredibly wise and deeply understanding people here, who have expressed sincere compassion, guidance and even love for me.
Since my first visit here, I've seen that the message to folks coming into a meeting has been adjusted, and is more "newbie friendly," and the "no crosstalk please" message is used more for those of us who are slipping, talking during the mtg, (more than a ((hug)) or a )
Since, for good reason, we refrain from refering to any specific religion or belief system here, perhaps the Op at open chats could have a reminder handy to insert, as they do during a meeting. One that reminds us that "Al-Anon is not a religious organization," as is stated on the front page of the site, but that it does encourage spiritual growth in a " power greater than ourselves" (step 2); that our twelve steps "are universal, applicable to everyone, whatever his personal creed." as stated in the Paths to Recovery book.
To me this is the essence of Al-anon, and its basis on spirituality has resonated in my heart as a universal truth. We're not all equally experienced in al-anon's traditions and principles; we don't all know not to refer to certain things in open chat that may be offensive to someone. Can we at least be mindful of al-anon's principles when someone is new, and crying, and scared, and sad? To me, we represent al-anon's principles when we're in al-anon chat, and although this site will attract all kinds of people, when it attracts someone who needs help, in my opinion, we could make a better effort to notice them than we did the other night. We, meaning me, too.
For as long as spirituality is important to the traditions, principles and steps to recovery in al-anon, I will be an eager and willing participant in the process.
((((kitty)))))
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