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It's been a while since I felt the need to post (though I still read!).
I have kept quiet these last months when ah drinks. I don't challenge, try to keep the focus on me and the children, and if I have prior warning of a binge, i sleep at family or friends with the children.
The thing is, I have noticed that if he sleeps in the same house as us when he's had a drink, and the children have a problem in the night, he either doesn't wake up fully and talks random rubbish or simply doesn't respond at all. Last night I had gone to sleep in my sons room because he's unwell. I woke at 4am to hear my 7yo really crying and begging ah to help her because her ear hurt. Ah was making acknowledging replies, but not moving. He wasn't awake. Just saying, yes, I know, I'm coming etc. This isn't the first time I've woken in the night/ Morning and heard the children trying to get ah to respond. It is often small stuff like getting breakfast so no Biggie, but it breaks my heart to hear it. Obviously, as soon as I hear them I attendto whatever their need is.
So, do I bother to mention to my ah that last night his 7yo child was begging him for help and he didn't respond? He prides himself on being the world's greatest father. It won't change anything if I do mention it, other than perhaps to make him see that just because he waits till the children are in bed before he starts doesn't mean he's not affecting them with it. But if he doesn't know, then he will not have all the data to judge for himself.
However, nothing will change so is there any need to hurt him by pointing this out?
Hugs this is hard stuff .. personally I check my motives first .. do I believe I have the power to say the magic words that he will understand what the drinking has done to the family. Can I say it once and let it go. My ex will tell you all day long he's the best dad in the world .. ...i'm not sure how to qualify that statement. He hasn't physically seen his kids since 2015. He's supposedly not drinking. I don't know if that's a true statement and it doesn't matter really. Will your AH be sober enough to even recall the conversion? When I feel those urges to reach out to my ex for any reason usually it's financial. I wait .. I pray .. and i question can I accept his response. I get so caught up in my choices I completely forget other people have choices to in their responses to what i say. Big hugs .. this is where sponsors are a gift. :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
I think it must be very hard for you to feel like a single parent
I had a long relationship with an addict alcoholic. I felt eventually I was the one holding everything up
The ex A would claim to be devoted to our dogs. He most certainly wasn't indeed ti this day he has a photo of one if our dogs on his web site The dog actually died king ago
Denial is a very hard thing to deal with the denial around alcoholism is considerable
I hope you will Kean on al.anon For me the tools of al
I understand your dilemma, and I agree that you have to decide whether to say anything FOR YOU, and for your daughter, not for the expectation of him changing. I went thru this sort of thing with my ex when we were married. As a wife and mom, I wanted to help him be the best father he could be. So I would tell him stuff like that... I tried not to sound critical, but I thought he should know what his daughters experience of him was. From her point of view, her dad was a checked-out zombie who didnt remember things, didnt really know her. Once we separated... when my daughter was 17, I came to the conclusion that it was up to him to be whatever kind of father he wanted to be, and my daughter would have to come to terms with however he was. My only role is to make sure she is safe. But its hard. Do you ever have real, honest conversations about your kids with your husband? Maybe that would be the time. I would think about how, also, holding this in would be. I accumulated a lot of resentment from what I didnt say along the way, and once I started acknowledging what was really happening, and feeling like I didnt have to keep silent, I felt a lot more empowered, even if I didnt like what was happening.
(((A Nother))) - good to see you again - sorry for the current situations. I've been in similar places over the years, and it's tough. What my sponsor suggested for me was to consider the Serenity Prayer focusing on all 3 parts, looking for solutions that were healthy. What I do know is that our recovery program suggests we take our own inventory vs. that of others.
In my case, I told my boys that if they were ever in need, and daddy wasn't helpful, available, responding, to find me. And yes - for the most part, I did exist as if I were a single parents as that seemed to be a healthy choice for the safety of my boys. There have been (god-given) moments where our family has discussed past events, and amazingly enough, I didn't have to talk about 'these things'. One of my sons has found his voice, and has expressed his pain to his father about past events. They've talked it out and are working to have a relationship. Is it later than I wanted? Yes - by about 15+ years yet it's happening as it is supposed to - natural, unforced, etc. My youngest and my AH are currently battling at every turn. They both complain extensively about the other to me, and I try to 'seek to understand' (this was my theme for the year). I practice just listening without judgment and offer no advice or solutions. What I have expressed to them both is what they are complaining about is identical - so to me, they have more in common than not.
In my home, any effort by me to explain to my active A how there actions were affecting me or others fell upon deaf ears. It was never helpful, and it certainly didn't add to my serenity. So, instead, I went back to what I could change which was to make sure my kids had one parent that would always do my best to keep them safe, comfort their ouchies and love them always unconditionally.
Hang in there and keep coming back - you really are not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Denial runs deep.for any alcoholic. What I.see these days as my part is not to make it easy for the alcoholic I no longer step in to make it better obviously as your children need a parent that is hard to do. But I no longer am willing to keep up.a fiction with any alcoholic that somehow they managed to be a good parent My younger sister tried valiantly with her children but the fact is they became alcoholics. I have no doubt my sister thinks she was s great parent.
There are been some really insightful replies here. I too am still living at home with my AH and four children. My personal experience is to stop and think through what my motives would be for raising it with my AH and from there work out whether that it is a healthy action or not for me to raise it. Most times, if I want to tell my AH, my motive comes from my own distorted thinking - i.e. - he will realise what he is doing / say sorry etc - which of course is about me and not him. That pausing allows me to examine my motives.
I make sure that I am there for the children. Yes I feel like a single parent alot of the time, but I also accept that this is my choice - I have no expectations that AH will change and at the moment I am planning on staying at least in the short term. It doesn't mean that it is always easy and this board and my f2f meetings keep me sane. I have spent the best part of the last year working on me and feel I have made good progress, being both happy and calm which in turn has meant that the household is mainly happy and calm aswell. I can spot danger points now when AH is likely to drink more and head it off, by removing myself and the children to do something fun before anything kicks off. An added bonus has been that we have made some fantastic memories together, doing simple stuff that I possibly wouldn't have done so often if things were different.
Having said all this, I hope things work out for you and your children and it sounds like you yourself are making great progress. x
This may appear to be a simple, myopic question. It may also seem to be a simple answer as well. In my experience, it is not.
First, we have heard countless and endless times -- you can't apply logic to an illogical person. What does the cliche mean? It means you can't have logical conversations, discussions, etc., with an alcoholic. Now, in my experience, here's the key...you can't, even when they are not drinking! Even when they are sober! Sure, I am sure someone will say they did, and it went great, their spouse or whoever the alcoholic is was understanding and listened to you, understood, and so on. Right, I get it. Two things, one, exception not the norm; and two, the one or the few is not the many. Tell me it worked permanently, long term, almost every time, and if that's the case, then why are we in alanon? LOL. My point is that approaching an alcoholic even when they are sober/not drunk, you are approaching them about what? Their drinking!!! How has that worked for you in the past? So, go ahead and approach them with the consequences of their drinking.
Second, check your motives. What are you really trying to do here? Get them to be attentive and responsive to a child in-need...or explaining to them what happened because of their drinking? Two different conversations, motives, and two difference outcomes. Prior to this, aside from this, does the alcoholic think they have a problem? Do they think they are an alcoholic? Do they think their drinking has an impact on others? Rhetorical questions as these are not questions to ask an alcoholic. I think trying to rationalize with an alcoholic---even when they are not drinking, not drunk, not inebriated, etc.---about anything having to do with their drinking, is an exercise in futility. Anyone ever hear of denial? Deflection? Blame? Guilt? Manipulation? Rationalization? Justification? Explanation? Gas-lighting? Anger? Frustration? Those are all the things the alcoholic can do, put forth, etc. -- and they are all the things that we do to!
Third, I am sure there have been plenty of instances where an alcoholic has been calm, cool, collective, rational, and so many more positive attributes. Is that what we do, wait for those times, to speak to them? To do what? Make our case? Beg? Plead? Convince? Again, yes, check your motives, however, in explaining the consequences or the effect(s) that their drinking has had on others...to what end? To what extent? I think even if I wasn't met with denial, or justification/explanation, I think this has to be a healthy choice for me. There has to be a proper, healthy, and genuine motive for me. Am I trying to prove a point? Better yet, am I trying to control? Get what I want?
I also would not have any EXPECTATIONS on this. I would not be vested in the outcome. I want to be happy and healthy regardless of the outcome and regardless of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. I don't want me being happy to depend on, be contingent upon, the alcoholic's behavior or whether or not they are drinking. My goal, for being happy and healthy...is...I want to be happy and healthy regardless of the outcome and regardless of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. If that is not you...and you want it to be...that's on you. Do the work, and it can be you.
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
I am sorry for what brings you here. But you are here to "do better." So that in itself is good. There is a lot of wisdom in this thread. My ESH - please take what you want and leave the rest - is not much different.
Before I understood addiction better, I tried to do all those things that you are contemplating. Mostly b/c I had some experience with Al-Anon previously, I could stand up for myself and my needs, so I knew it was important to me to voice the concerns. However, the brain is so transformed chemically by the substances an addicted one uses, I never saw the results I wanted. And I became more and more frustrated and bitter!
I too, eventually had to do what Iamhere did, and told my child that if he needed anything, he would need to seek me out. I was essentially a single parent for many, many years. But if you talked to my spouse, he was the greatest father ever!! And if I pointed out all his failings in that regard, I was just a "resentful, unsupportive witch!" The amount of gas-lighting that would spew from my spouse's mouth was truly astounding! And I never knew until I educated myself. I just lived with it, and believed him... which changed me to my core-being! It also deeply affected my son... something I didn't know until he was in his teen years! I am still digging myself out... coming back to my "true" self.
My Ex has been sober (working a strong program at the moment) for just over a year now... and he is JUST NOW beginning to understand how the alcohol use affected his relationship with his son... and sometimes he still doesn't understand, b/c alcohol just erased some of his memories! There are huge chunks of time & events (where our child was a freshman, sophomore and junior in high school) that he just can't recall. He finds it very scary at times, but because of his AA program, he is learning to accept that consequence.
What I am trying to say is... you will never be able to apply logic to an addict's brain... what we see and know as "norms" just aren't in their vocabulary. The drug of choice has wiped that away. But truly understanding all there is currently known about addiction and all the "isms" will help you to not doubt yourself, and to change YOURSELF and how you cope with living beside the disease!
Your children are very young, so I know how hard this can be! I will be keeping your little family in my prayers. Keep coming back... MIP is a Godsend!
Peace & Love
PS: If I had known about how damaging this disease is to the children as they get older, I would've done something to change ME and my circumstances much sooner than I did! I just tried to hide or mitigate... but children know and are affected... even if you think you are doing everything to protect them from the effects of this disease!
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Saturday 29th of December 2018 02:32:10 PM
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Saturday 29th of December 2018 02:36:46 PM
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
One of the very powerful thought forces I was able to understand about my intentions and actions with my alcoholic was, " What is my motive?" what am I looking to do and what am I looking to get out of it personally. Am I still trying to "Win" at and in a fight I have never won in and at before.
When I learned how to answer this question honestly and humbly with the help of my sponsor and the program of recovery that I witnessed many others successfully practicing getting progressively saner and serene then I made up my mind to practice that program as I do now. I have heard that Al-Anon is a simple program for complicated people and that alcoholism is a cunning, powerful and baffling disease.
What is my motive...what do I hope to gain by it. ((((hugs))))
Hi Another
I live in a somewhat similar situation. My AH prides himself on being a good dad and he is a very good dad who unfortunately has a horrible disease. I also feel he thinks that waiting to drink later in the evening so his daughter doesn't see him drunk means she doesn't see the effects of his drinking. I really try to check my motives on why I am talking about my AHs drinking with him and think about what I would like to ask of him regarding it. My AH does not share my opinion that his drinking is a problem. He absolutely does not see things from the same perspective as me. And this terrible disease would rather he believe that I am the difficult one not the drinking. In the fall we had an incident where our daughter had a friend over after school on a Friday. AH had started drinking early that afternoon I guess because just after dinner he was in the bathroom throwing up from having too much to drink while my daughter and her friend were playing in her bedroom nearby. It really broke my heart. I felt that incident was so clear to me that he should be able to see that he has a problem. But I have learned after a few years in Al Anon that that kind of logic won't work with the disease it just doesn't. I waited a couple of days to address it and when I did I stuck to the facts. I pointed out that I noticed he had a lot to drink when our daughter's friend was over. So much so that he was vomiting in the bathroom and everyone could hear him. I told him that even though he wasn't required to drive I would like for both of us be sober enough when my daughter has a friend over that either of us could effectively monitor the children. He agreed to it quite readily actually and has stuck to it since. I know that if I had brought it up to "show" him that he has no control or that it has control of him he wouldn't have taken any responsibility for his actions. I know it's not the same situation but I am sure that if you think about why you are bringing it up and what you hope to gain from the conversation you will find clarity and guidance from your higher power.
All the best!
