Childhood guilt, depression, the brain and science - Al-Anon Family Group

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Childhood guilt, depression, the brain and science

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks Catherine I believe that I saw the "isms" in my son as early as 3 and was amazed. He thought differently, and he would ask me If i was "in his head" and if not how could I tell him what to do? Or when playing football at the age of 9 he could not tackle his freind on the other team because they were friends. It went on and on, was cute and other distrubing, but I thought he would walk to his own drum and be fine. Did not know how powerful the ISMs are.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

smile Sweet story, Betty. Thank you.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I saw the isms in my son too hotrod. He had a real sense of justice and would stick up for other children getting himself in trouble. His thinking has always been quite black and white. When i look at myself, i can see isms. I felt guilty throughout my life too. If i was happy i remember searching for something i did wrong to feel guilty about. So, i think i might have that brain blip too. I suppose thats why i ended up with the perfect match, my ex. I was easily controlled by guilt as a child and as an adult.
No longer though, that blip has got itself sorted out. I had an argument with someone at work, he was delibrately winding me up, joking as he does with everyone but in that moment i thought he was serious so i shouted at him and defended myself. Not very alanon, i do realise that but the interesting part was my reaction, at first i felt extreme guilt and remorse that i had let myself down then i thought about it rationally, realised he kind of asked for it and im still okay, im good, no need to beat myself up and in fact a few of my colleagues told me they thought he had been asking to be put in his place for a long time and had stories where he had wound them up too. Thanks grateful.x

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you- very interesting information! My Mom would say my sister entered this world with such a strong personality that was different and extremely difficult- even as a baby. I grew up feeling extreme guilt over just about anything and carried this into my adulthood. The QTIP slogan was the first exposure I had to realizing a different perspective- it felt odd at first and I didn't understand why friends were seeing things differently regarding situations at work. I listened to them because I wanted my situation to improve, now I can see that guilt seeped into many places. Interestingly, I wouldn't be surprised if my sister also feels guilt that manifests in a broad spectrum of ways.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I totally get this, Bud, and can wholeheartedly relate. Learning the difference between realistic and unrealistic guilt for me was a real healer. As a kid, I felt guilty because I didn't know how to handle things as an adult might. That can be a default for me when I'm in a new situation with new people and my way of seeing things isn't the same as the way other people see it but I don't know that until I say something or do something different than the others might based on their own perspective in relationship to an issue. Knowing I'm not responsible for knowing everything, the perfect way to handle things, or the way other adults think, feel or behave is a relief and a freeing from unrealistic guilt.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I have always said that A's are a different bug. NOT always bad either. Most of our artists, producers, directors, writers, invention people, walked to a different drum.

that is amazing how kids show they are A from a young child.

My kids were very different but then so am I. Not A's but maybe some light predispositions in their dna.

they both are creative and different, looked at things different like Bettys son.

It's awful sad that they are born A with so much they could give and do, but the dang addiction ends up stronger than the positive side. I have shared I have loved A's all my life. Very few are still living. to me they are very attractive. maybe it partially is becuz they are wired to think of themselves in almost every situation. When I have always thought outside from me, and had to learn to take care of me too.

they are not so bogged down by others pain in the world. My son would blame or get mad if he tripped. He thought the rain always rained on him. I called it his dooms day attitude.

HE is MUCH MUCH better now. But has to work hard to see the good.

did you have a site addy gtb?

hugs

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

LOL! Loved the story about your son, DL.

No, I don't have a site addy? I think you're meaning can I tell people how to find it or can I establish a link for them or something on that order? Welllllllllllllllllll, no. I stink at it. At least I know how to pm now and use emoticons that you have to do more than click on thanks to some folks here. Kenny tried to show me what to do with the permalink. Did it once. Forgot. Sigh. It was on MSN's news site last night on the web. That's about as helpful as I can be. Maybe just putting childhood brain link to adult depression into the search engine might be helpful? That's about the only way I know how to find anything on the web. That and contacting Cathy or Kenny or Melly or another obviously talented techno person here.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

This is interesting, G, I can see some of this in my eldest son, who is addicted to alcohol. Hmmm...

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

hotrod wrote:
Thanks Catherine I believe that I saw the "isms" in my son as early as 3 and was amazed. He thought differently, and he would ask me If i was "in his head" and if not how could I tell him what to do? Or when playing football at the age of 9 he could not tackle his freind on the other team because they were friends. It went on and on, was cute and other distrubing, but I thought he would walk to his own drum and be fine. Did not know how powerful the ISMs are.

nice share, (((Betty)))) and yea, i did not kow ow powerful the ISM's are either....as a coda, I have them...i manage them....

i found out that my getting angry when not in control, when "stuff happens" is an addiction on my part...the "rush" i get when pissed off.....it gives me the "illusion" of control.......doing step 7 on it......its a biggy....i get angry when i am not being mindful...and i "go off" yelling and berating me at times.....or if i can't fix a computer or something else fights me and its blood sweat and tears getting a project done that i need to do....i do the "anger" thing......all those chemicals coursing through me , are addicting.....didnt' see it till recently....now i try to ward it off with S prayer or clapping my hands and telling me "NO....STOP" and even walking away from the project.........just another thing for me to manage about me, all this damage...can't believe i am alive.......

oceanpine · Senior Member

Here is a link to the article: http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/the-childhood-trait-that-could-predict-mental-illness/ar-AA7T7H6

It's funny (?), when I did a search for "childhood guilt linked to adult depression" after the msn news article, and the same article on the Huffington Post, the third link was to this very thread here at Al-Anon.

glad · ~*Service Worker*~

I've always been interested in the nature vs. nurture theories, I glanced over the article and my ideas are that brains develop as they grow so yes parts of the brain may be going to develop differently if the parent is constantly beating children up emotionally or physically and or ignoring the importance of early childhood experiences and data can be manipulated to prove almost anything. This article seems to almost ignore the fact that the brain is developing as it is because of what it is being exposed to.

Most of the time people are who they are because of the type of nurturing or lack of nurturing from parents especially mothers, type of interaction or lack of interactions they have as preschoolers with others ( I am not a big fan of full time public day care for preschoolers) no matter how good it may be, the teaching and the environments they are exposed to and what behaviors their family deems "appropriate". Basically parenting or lack their of.

I watched my girls emotional development like a hawk when they were preschoolers! If I saw them exposed to a negative ( like their grandfather telling them to watch out for strangers cuz people steal little kids and sacrifice them to the devil) I would then find as many different ways as fast as I could to not only tell them but show them through experiences with new people, my interaction and comments around people in public etc, that most people are good, the world is mostly a safe loving place... then we would go back later and work on stranger danger after we had redeveloped trust.

Ok I know that's a harsh example and it was not always that hard- and I could write an entire book about all my mistakes ... many horrible parenting choices I made over and over, especially as they got older.. I lost focus... but I promise you this kind of attention to early childhood development is the best antibiotic for emotional problems or bad choices that there is.

Also it is a proven fact that some brains develop differently or we wouldn't have things such as Autism so I'm not totally dismissing the possibility, I am saying children develop their personalities between birth and 4 to 6 years old and I believe most of that is through their life experiences.

-- Edited by glad on Monday 19th of January 2015 08:30:10 AM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey betty when i click reply, it comes up w/an old post of mine.......so doing quick reply to get around this

re: this post and what glad said........WOW!!! i was never wanted by my mother, not held, locked up in a dog crate a lot, not loved, so yea, today i have bonding issues....i can bond, but it takes a long time for it to get deep.....i agree that we are products of our experiences and i have over come much, but there is much of me i won't repair/re-unite with....its GONE....i have to accept it....do my best getting around it....

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for your shares, all.

Maybe in 20 years, medical science will be able to help the brain heal in new ways?

In the case of both my son and my daughter, after multiple pregnancies that miscarried, both of these pregnancies were also troubled and by some miracle, both babies were born viable. My son couldn't breathe at birth and was taken away from me to put him through treatments that could not be done in my room and I wasn't allowed to see. My daughter didn't have these troubles. Both were brought into the same environment but she displayed no neurological abnormalities, breathing issues or multiple allergies as my son did.

There is a part of my brain that is dead. I was born with that although nobody would have been able to diagnose it because when I was growing up they just didn't have the kind of testing they have today. I didn't know that I had a learning disability until I was about 30 years old and just happened to meet somebody younger than me in a specialty field that could diagnose and treat brain dysfunction or at least help parents and the child with the difficulty understand that there were just some things they were never going to be able to do. That wasn't due to my parents or my environment. My early years were very safe and very happy. According to the practitioner, there was a part of my brain that had never worked and wouldn't. And that some of the things I had learned to do were due to my need to overcompensate for the part of the brain that was non-functioning. Other things I would never be able to do. That took a load off for me. I had spent years trying to do something I simply couldn't do that involved that particular section of the brain. Knowing that I wasn't lazy, rebellious, not trying hard enough, etc was a big help for me. I learned to concentrate on those things I could do well and let go of other stuff like higher math and Greek. I made it through algebra by the skin of my teeth and probably only because my teacher knew I was doing all I could do. I flunked geometry and that was with a tutor, student help and trying to talk with my teacher about it. What confused the school system was that my IQ was high, so I was put in academically talented classes. They had no idea that some students like me did have brain dysfunction. It was disheartening for me because I really liked being a good student. C-, D, F were shaming grades for me. So were some of my teacher's reactions. Fortunately, my parents knew I'd stay up to 1 or 2 trying to get it and was self-motivated to get my own tutors, so they didn't make a big deal about it. I did though.

My son also suffered brain damage due to a car accident. There is a part of the brain that died. Neurologists and others specifically trained on brain function and malfunction let us all know that he had lost what could never be regenerated because of where the impact hit the brain.

It is my hope that some day, we can do more with the brain to help regenerate it in some ways and move beyond the nature/nurture question into some solutions that might provide relief for folks with brain dysfunctions.

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