Feeling scared about leaving kids with the AH - Al-Anon Family Group

sookie · Senior Member

Feeling scared about leaving kids with the AH

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm confused. If the children haven't been at his apartment for three years, are you meaning he's only spent time with them at your place and that's why they love spending time with him or is there another place they've been going to visit with him and that's where they've loved going? Is there a court order spelling out visitation or is there just a verbal agreement between both of you? What does a little off mean? I've loved to respond and really am not certain of the facts of the situation.

sookie · Senior Member

Yes--he has only spent time with them in my (our old home) and I usually wouldn't leave him alone with them that long. They have only been to his apartment a few times in the last month.

It sounds insane I know. But we do not fight and actually have maintained doing things as a family fairly successfully over the last years. Still going on family day-trips together or out to eat. (part of why for me, it has been so hard letting go of the dream of the family, etc...) On occasions, he would bring alcohol into the house when he was responsible for them. For example, I'd come home from an Al-Anon meeting and I knew he has been drinking. But he claims to have been sober for a while now and I have not seen him drunk in a long time. I pray it is true but it is also hard for me to believe after 12 years of lies, the roller coaster, etc...

There is no court ordered anything at this point--but he is pushing for 50/50 time. Now, and since he moved out, we just always try to plan the time with them between the two of us for what works for that week or what we have going on. We are just now beginning divorce procedures and trying to do it all via mediation and uncontested divorce. I pray that is the road we stay on...I want so badly to salvage a friendly relationship for the sake of the kids and our own sense of peace. There are a lot of egos, past pain, and tangled finances though so it is a lot of stress. Plus, I am not used to giving them up to him like this...it's been hard for me.

-- Edited by sookie on Sunday 12th of October 2014 04:24:20 PM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

If he isn't in a formal program of recovery, I'd be wary, too. From what you are saying, the children enjoy being with their Dad? As you know, it isn't what our As say, but what they do that matters. In my case, visitation was allowed by the courts. There were no incidents like DWIs on file and so I had to follow court orders when it came to my kids visiting with their Dad. If you have allowed the visits in the recent past, the kids seem happy, he hasn't been drunk to your knowledge and he can't drive, is there a reason that you are anxious more today? Has something occurred that is troubling you in the very recent past or is it just that you're feeling a little anxiety that seems to come out of nowhere?

sookie · Senior Member

I guess when I dropped them off there--I saw some mannerisms that seemed like maybe he had been on a bender the night before or was displaying some guilt, etc...I know him so well. Within one word on the phone, I can tell if he is drunk. But I think in general I am feeling not at ease with this whole thing. So hard to give up control, especially when it comes to my sweet kids but I want them to have a thriving healthy relationship with him. I am going to try to hunker down and get busy tonight to get through. Lots of prayers for peace I guess. Thanks for your response.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Sookie big hugs,

My experience has been that the longer they get into the disease they just check out. It's now been 6 weeks and not a word to the kids. Good grief he had no intension of even telling me he was indefinitely suspended at work, which happened 2 weeks ago. In 9 months he's not physically phoned the kids about ANYTHING .. he has text them 10x total over this time. He's just checked out. Honestly, for them it's so much better, he is not ok. He doesn't want the responsibility nor does he want to have to accept responsibility for any of his behavior. He doesn't feel he owes the kids an apology and we have already had that conversation .. his behavior in his mind is completely ok.

My kids were 12 and 7 when this mess all started. My kids liked going with their dad in the beginning and then they started experiencing the erratic behavior and started asking questions about what was going on. Mine was driving at the time, and because the behavior was soooo over the top and grandiose .. I was very specific .. if you see your dad drink or his behavior is weirder than normal DO NOT get in a car/truck with him. You are NEVER to get in a car/truck if you even suspect he's been drinking or is in an altered state of mind. They started seeing things I had shielded them from .. my daughter caught on really quick. I pulled him aside and I was clear with him .. you drive with the kids intoxicated I will come at you in ways that will blow what's left of your brain cells. I was very, clear and not everyone agrees with how I chose to handle things .. the reality is for me this was the best way to go given how out of control he was .. he was drinking vodka out of a wine glass the last visitation and completely freaked the kids out. There was a porn issue that happened and he was like hugging and whispering in my son's ear about how if he wanted to live with him he could .. yah right .. that was in one night .. that is the last time they spent time with him in over 12 months. They do not trust his judgment. Sad .. however true .. they see how he's treated me and that has also colored the kids perception of what is going on.

I just let the kids know at any point and time they could call me and I would be there in a heart beat. I absolutely gave them a voice in calling the police .. my daughter verbalized she'd call me and I could deal with that aspect. I told her totally fine. By that point I had a restraining order against him because his behavior was just so over the top. Their safety always comes first, I do not want to be in a position of saying if I had only (fill in the blank) everything else is what it is. I do not expect healthy behavior out of him. So I am very clear about boundaries and what needs to happen in terms of no you can't leave the kids alone and tell them you will be gone for 20 min and be gone for 2 hours with no phone call. No, you will not drive with them intoxicated I will have you arrested. No. He tried to take the kids out of the county and the kids looked at him and said .. did you talk to mom about this .. he was mad .. sorry .. driving an hour out of town is so not happening and he talked about taking them to visit his brother's who live 4 hours away and my daughter said .. dad, we don't feel comfortable spending the night at this point let's take one step at a time. I haven't heard a word about it and she was very clear these kinds of discussions need to happen with mom NOT with me. He thinks if he goes to the kids he will get a different answer and the answer is talk to mom first THEN you can talk to us.

For me everything is documented through text and a timeline. At least then I feel like I can say ok .. this is what happened when and I can go back and see what is and is not important. Yes, I believe the God of my understanding has my back and my kids backs .. at the same time I am responsible for doing the footwork and NO I'm not going to turn a blind eye and pretend everything is going to be ok. Again .. not a road for everyone and I can see a couple of things I wish I had handled different as a whole though I would take the same steps again for the simple fact their safety comes first. End of story, if they aren't safe then I haven't done my job as the responsible parent because I'm parenting with someone who has no barometer for what is and is not appropriate .. is it sad that the kids don't have a relationship with their dad .. of course it is .. it is what it is and for me his behavior was way to out of control and still is as he lacks any kind of empathy when it comes to them. I figure they won't see him again until the first of the year IF then. I'm preparing myself to fully be a single parent without any assistance from him.

Hugs S :)

PS - of course there is always hope .. the hope that he will find recovery .. at this point .. that hasn't happened and it is very sad .. it's just not my problem anymore nor should it be our kids issue.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I meant to add something .. LOL .. if I didn't already say this .. I have to trust my kids to know when they feel safe and when they don't. Since I DO trust that they know their own personal level of safety MY anxiety is lowered by the fact I know they have each other and I know they watch out for each other. Something I did do was create with them an environment and their therapist absolutely said this was text book beautiful where Dad doesn't divide and conquer .. the bottom line is this .. if one wants to go .. they both go .. if one doesn't they do not. They discuss do they want to see their dad together and with their therapist. At this point neither of them want the hassle of the chaos. It probably doesn't help the whole youporn stuff that happened during the 2nd to last visitation and then there was the facebook incident. I mean seriously .. he just doesn't do himself ANY favors at this point. They are a teen and an almost teen and his behavior of a teen when he's the dad embarrasses them and they have tried to communicate that to him. He doesn't listen.

The thing is they love their dad .. they do not like his behavior and right now .. they don't want to deal with his insanity because he turns and blames them for things they will call him out on .. I haven't seen you because you haven't called me .. it's crazy stuff like that. After all it's on them to call it's not his job as the parent to pick up the phone and say .. how are you, what's going on?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

If he is drinking, then a healthy, thriving relationship for them with him may not be possible? Knee jerk reactions won't help either and it does sound to me as if you are willing to think this through calmly with others before you act? I do believe as you do that the children's safety is very important as is their emotional stability. If they're still with him now, do you think a call just to see how everyone is doing or to suggest an ice cream together might be helpful? Sensing he went on a bender last night would be enough for me to warrant at least a call to check on them that under the circumstances would be reasonable to ensure that my children were happy and content.

sookie · Senior Member

I could call to wish them goodnight in a little bit--that wouldn't be too odd (they are staying over because they are off tomorrow but I have to work). But I know he would just hand the phone to my daughter w/o saying hi to me in person. I may do that though. Thank you for being here for me through this tonight and sharing your experiences. I also think I will ask the school guidance counselor about what to do in terms of having a conversation with them about alcoholism and their safety. My older one could understand I think. She has seen him drunk in the past and knows he is not himself. My younger one would not really get it (I don't think).

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Trust your intuition. I know we say that fear is false evidence appearing real, but I see fear differently at times. Sometimes being scarced or fearful is information that is registering in our body that needs to be heard. I heard in a class on alcoholism once that an alcoholic is either in recovery or relapse....is he in recovery? I feel for you in this situation....leaving them with him in his apt is risky.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

When I was in this situation, my specifications were no overnights and no driving. I didn't outright say this as it would have caused a fight and some pushback. Thankfully my A was like many, and the effort involved in an overnight was more effort than he wanted to be responsible for, so that didn't really come up. And he lives only a block away so no driving was necessary to get to his place, and they'd just walk to a nearby pizza place (about three blocks), so driving didn't come up. If either of these had been possibilities, I would have put my foot down in as persuasive a way possible.

The possibility of 50/50 custody is always worrying. I would get a lawyer to deal with that, even if the lawyer doesn't actively intercede for you - the lawyer can advise you as to how to proceed. Sometimes people have 50/50 custody but actually one parent has primary physical custody and it just means the financial and legal responsibilities are shared 50/50. Still, I myself would avoid that if I could, because it means more entanglement with the A. My lawyer told me that judges usually follow what pattern has been established. So if the kids visit the A for three hours on a Saturday afternoon, the judge will usually follow that. That means that you can set up a pattern and hope it will "hold," and also not to allow any visits that you wouldn't want to become the pattern.

If he is an A (which he is), he will probably drink around your kids. What you most want to avoid is him driving them, or passing out, or whatnot. Take good care of yourself and them.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I would make a boundary he is NOT to drive with them period. If he does, then he has to visit at your place. if he doesn't like it and takes it to court take in the dui proof.

I know you are afraid, you have every right to be. But you will keep them safe, you just will no matter what. hugs

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

The other thing was my daughter had a cell phone she could call Or text me anytime she wanted to .. so it might be something to think about for your kids while they are at dad's. As far as 50/50 if he has current history of violations .. talk to your atty .. I did get sole custody and he has reasonable visitation. The mediator recommender it. I coMpletely agree with Mattie .. the effort in overnights is to much. Like I said .. most active A's after about a year are gone emotionally as wool as physically. They can't cope. If your intuition is dinging .. what PP says is true .. there is fear and there is warning bells .. you will start to hear and feel the difference. I "know" when my STBAX does Something stupid. The same way I "know" he's actively in his disease. Some things don't need rationalization or justifying they just are. Hugs ..

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

This must be so difficult. When I left, my youngest was 10 and he never went to his dads, he didnt want to amd my ex was so pissed most of the time it suited him. I can imagine how you feel. You are doing all you can, legally and morally. I think thats about all you can do. Provide your kids with an emergency plan, mayne your 8 yr old having a mobile just in case. I would pray, ask your higher power to help you with this. Alcoholics are usually pretty transparent when the drinkjng begins. Well my ex never left you with any doubt he was drinking, ever, so trust the information you need will come to you.

The what ifs are espacially powerful when it comes to our kids, its hard to consider that the what ifs come with the alternative view point, what if it will all be ok?

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

50/50 custody is ridiculous for him to ask for with no license or even a history of having it taken for long periods at a time. He has a documented history of alcohol problems, recklessness, and he would not be able to drive them needed places in emergencies. I can't envision this happening...but what do I know?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

My experience with my x was that even visitation was an on again/off again action on his part. He threatened me verbally with trying to get custody of the kids and that was only to do what he knew would hurt me or scare me. As a friend of mine said: "Well, suggest you pack all of their clothes and drop them off to him? He'll have them back in no time. He's already shown you he doesn't want the responsibility of being a father or a husband." Of course, I didn't act on that suggestion but it did make me laugh and let go of my fear. Your AH can ask for 50/50 and you can say no through the legal system as you work this all through with your attorney. Courts generally award young children to their mothers if the mother has stable employment, a home for the children and no CPS or other legal charges against them. Fortunately, you have demonstrable proof that your x is a danger to himself and others with the charges against him. There won't be any doubt in the judge's mind that you might be trying to gain something at your AH's expense that isn't true. You have proof that is useable and necessary for the wellbeing of your daughters. I'd also be concerned about your AH's progressive disease and how safe your daughters would be in the company of other As that your AH could befriend if he is drinking or going on binges.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 13th of October 2014 07:27:28 AM

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It is helpful that he has a record of drunk driving - not one but two DWIs. A canny lawyer should know how to present this to the judge persuasively if it comes to that. I know you don't want to be adversarial, and if he won't agree to give you custody, you don't need to lose your calm to take it to a lawyer and judge. In my experience A's don't really want 50/50 custody - they want one of the following: a) not to feel like they've lost power or control of the kids, b) not to lose contact with the kids (which they're sometimes afraid of if they don't have big custody rights), c) not to have to pay child support. But real 50/50 custody would completely overwhelm my A, and he's attached to our child. He can do maybe 95/5 on a good day, though he'd like to SAY he's a 50/50 parent.

Spur · Senior Member

When my AH started drinking daily my kids were very young. At one point A was to pick them up from an activity and my oldest daughter called me upset that she didn't think they should get in the car with their Dad. I told her she did the right thing to call me and I would be there asap. Then I called my A and told him I would be picking the kids up and he needed to leave. His speech was slurred as he talked to me. I was so angry he would get drunk knowing he was to pick the kids up...from a activity at church no less. I never trusted him again after that.

Talk to your kids about their safety when they are with your A. If they feel anxious about a situation, they need to call you right away. Always send a cell phone with them. You can get one that you prepay for the minutes which are much cheaper than having a yearly plan through a major cell provider.

Actually, recently I had to be out of town and one of my kids needed to be driven to a couple places while I was gone. It's been many years since I've asked A to pick the kids up or take them somewhere and this time I had no choice. I talked to him and said, daughter needs to be run these places while I'm gone and I need to know if you can do this for her or not and that means that you do not drink before you pick her up, while you are waiting during her lessons, or on the way home. He said he would do it. I added a boundary, thanks to Al Anon, and I said if you drink before or while she is with you, you will not live here when I get back. And I meant it. My kids safety and welfare will always come first and he knows that. I was surprised that he did it. I say surprised because he drinks more now then he did years ago so assume his need for his drug is higher. And daughter was informed of what she should do if her Dad showed up drunk or was drinking while driving. She has a cell phone and she has a driving permit if it had come to that.

-- Edited by Spur on Wednesday 15th of October 2014 10:59:58 AM

Kerrymom · Senior Member

I hope it worked out that night. I am still with my AH for this reason, he has no DUI or anything so would have unrestricted visitation. His DUI's may be a blessing in disguise for you. It's a hard position and I never dreamed I'd not be able to leave my kids with their dad. Take care

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