Re: Told I'm game playing - Al-Anon Family Group

rainbow · Veteran Member

Re: Told I'm game playing

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Yep....it's a way for them to keep you on the hook. You need to say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean. You also don't need to repeat yourself...he will get the message. Yeah he will get every angry because he knows your not going to be his enabler anymore and that scares the hell out of him.

Most alcoholics can't manage without a enabler and needs someone to help him when the crisis arises. I had to give my AS the gift of giving him back his problems and give him the dignity to work them out for himself. I needed to let him grow up and take responsibility for his choices.

Continue to take care of you and pray he will come to terms with what is happening, hit a bottom and walk through the doors of AA.

Keep coming back because you are not alone... ((( hugs )))

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to MIP. Ditto to all that Cathy said. I hope you have a sponsor as the disease tends to ramp up the more changes we make. The more support we get in Al-Anon and from others who understand alcoholism and how it affects us, the more we can stick to continuing our recovery. There is a wonderful pamphlet on detachment that you might have gotten in your beginner's packet? If you don't have it, you can download it from our WSO of Al-Anon's website. The Merry-go-round Named Denial and Just for Today pamphlets or bookmarks are extremely helpful, too.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome Rainbow! Careful of what you just asked. You stated you were detaching and then asked "How to I get HIM TO SEE that I'm serious." That's not the purpose of all this. Whether or not he sees it as game playing forever is irrelevant. This is all for you. Over time, he will either adjust or not when he sees this is how you are. You are powerless over him. If you want to keep detaching, avoid the entire invitation to argue in response to "You are game playing!" Maybe respond "Whatever" and go about your business. That may be too blunt - If you felt like even spending the energy to address it maybe "You may view my behavior like that if you want. I assure you that's not my intention." I guess my point is that there is more to alcoholic behavior than just drinking. There are lots of traps that Alanon is teaching you to avoid and one of them is also avoiding accusations and invitations to argue.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

My ex started "accusing" me of being matter-of-fact like it was a bad thing to be, I would shrug, sometimes say something like, well, what's the point in getting upset? of course he didn't like it, because he could no longer twist my emotions to use against me. I shrugged my shoulders a lot, we divorced because he wasn't going to change and I wasn't going to go back.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to mip! (c:

Ok Al Anon is for YOU. We learn to look at our progress by using tools. The A's stuff is their own.

So in saying this, you keep going on your path, detaching from his disease. For me that means loving him but I have nothing to do with his symptoms such as rage, arguing, manipulation, fighting. etc. I learn to walk away, not say anything, not engage with the A.

An A is sick, very sick. Their brains and the rest of their body is very damaged and being damaged by alcohol, basically they are pickled by it. Sadly they are insane. Even if they don't drink for a day or two,they are still sick and body parts are not working right.

We set our boundaries with a consequence. ex: I will not talk with anyone who yells at me or argues.If someone tries to engage me I will leave the room or home, or go read or basically leave the persons presence.

another example: I will not get into a vehicle with you driving. Either I drive or I find another way to get where I need to go.

His respnses are not important. They are words from someone who is sick and with no sense. We work on us no matter what they say or do.

If we want to live with them we learn skills to do that. Or we keep it the same and are miserable. or some leave or A leaves.

I learned never to put my trust in A. I took things as they came. A lot of A's hate Al Anon becuz they can no longer control you.

They like to pull others down with them.

He is taking you seriously, that is what is making him angry, you are crawling up out of the pit of his disease. Good for you!! Just does not matter what he says. What matters is we learn to not give it any attention or worth. Your being consistent is so very important. YOU will feel better, progress better and you will no longer give his disease any satisfaction. He will get to where he will see you are serious. But that is his thing not yours.

We can only control us, we can do nothing for the A at all. Except love them,and not attack them or engage in insanity. We do nothing for them that they can very well do themselves.

We don't worry about them. They are an adult, they can take care of themselves.

You Rainbow will feel a new lightness, a freedom as you continue on your program of recovery! You sound strong and willing to work the program. We are here to support you too. Getting Them Sober by Toby rice drew,volume one is a perfect guide for you. Very cheapon Amazon or pm me and I will send you one. hugs hugs and do come back!

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't mean it unkindly but I came to look at A as a tantruming child during those times when I was learning to detach and he was fighting for my attention. I try not to even look for his reaction when I enforce my boundaries or make decisions I know he won't like because his reactions aren't normal, or healthy, or in my best interests, and I am just learning to feel healthy and normal and act in my own best interests so, I can't take on his nonsense as well!
I'm getting quite practiced at it now, if I have doubt I ask myself, is what I am doing reasonable? Do I think most "normal" people would find this reasonable? The answer is usually yes, so, his crazy reactions, sulking, or trying to bait me into fights is just crazy rubbish and not worth even noticing. And usually, after he has thrown a tantrum or carried on like a petulant child all day he will suddenly "forget all about it" and act as if nothing happened anyway....proof that even HE didn't think his argument was valid!! It was all just noise!!
It bugs me to realise how much time and energy and tears I wasted on crazy arguments that he didn't even mean or care about, I think he was just saying and doing whatever he could to get a rise out of me. The more I closed my eyes and ears to it and cheerfully carried on with things, the less he tried to get my attention that way. Just like a tantruming child...stop reacting, eventually they will either give up or look for a better way to communicate their need. Well, that's how it seems to have worked for me, anyway.

rainbow · Veteran Member

It bugs me too missmeliss how much time and energy and tears I have wasted on crazy arguments and I feel guilty for my part in them. I am not always strong enough to resist the bait. It takes two to fight. Am I too sensitive? I don't know but I do know that I hate myself for doing it every time I do. The crap we argue over is insane. Stopping myself reacting is my biggest challenge. It's like I feel so hurt by A that at times I don't know how to process the pain other than to take the bait but invariably what I say comes out wrong and I sound mean and angry. Sometimes i can't stop thinking about the past, things I could have done better, how my kids have been affected by the choices I have made. I don't have much confidence left. However, I am reading everything you guys have said over and over and it is making so much sense. Big thank you from me! I like "whatever" Pinkchip. Will definitely try this one. The merrygoround pamphlet was a great read, grateful and the metaphor of sitting back in the audience and being an observer is something I am going to try hard to do. Still locating the other pamphlets and the Toby Rice Drew Getting Them Sober Volume One. Debilyn, if I can't source it I will definitely PM you, thanks for that! Thanks guys for your all the support and help.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

My x and I (in our early 20s) used to disagree over who got to push the shopping cart in the grocery store. Underneath all that surface silliness was the real power struggle - who got to be in charge/in control - me or him? The disease or unconditional love. Took awhile and I'm still learning the difference. Keep coming back. We're all working through stuff together. No experts here - just people who have learned what doesn't work and are still learning what works better. Glad you're here.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I encourage you not to be too hard on yourself, Rainbow - you're new to the program and you've had a lifetime of responding to that sort of behavior in your familiar, comfortable way.

It takes a lot of time and practice to slowly... very, VERY slowly, change our reactions and responses to such behavior. And believe me, Alcoholics are sure to dole out plenty of opportunities to practice and do it different the next time around.

I can guarantee you we still slip and take the bait more often than we'd like. Well, I say "we" - but I really speak for myself. Give yourself a pat on the back just for having the awareness of what's going on. That's a HUGE step right there, instead of unconsciously falling into the argument again and again and not even taking a moment to self-reflect.

Keep coming back. :)

rainbow · Veteran Member

Thanks grateful and Aloha for your trying to encourage me. I've really been struggling with depression these past two weeks because A has been absolutely hell to live with, even meaner than normal, whether he is drinking or not. It is amazing to me how I find this safe place here and I learn about the 12 steps and start trying to work the program and I feel better than I have felt in ages and at the same time, my relationship with A hits a whole new level of mega-low because A is p...d off at me for changing. He takes issue with every bit of detached love, 'whatever', no-reaction from me. I feel like he is an kid with oppositional defiant disorder. A couple of nights ago he had been drinking heavily and told me that he has started to go on to porn websites because he feels I don't love really him anymore. He said it is a consequence for me. He also said he may as well have an affair. This is a whole new level of 'low' for him and I just couldn't sleep in the same bed since then. I have never seen him this mad at me but I am not going to sleep with someone who reduces the intimacy in our relationship to sex. Since then we have talked about ending it. He keeps saying how he feels punished by the changes I am making and he repeatedly tells me I am just game playing. I don't know what to say when he says this kinda stuff to me.

I don't know if this has happened to anyone else, but I have noticed that the better I have felt about focusing on me, the more I can't pretend that everything will be fine and say my mantra that I really do love him. I have noticed a kind of cold anger is creeping in and I haven't felt this before. I feel distant from him. Numb. I haven't felt like this before either. He has crossed a new boundary this time and I don't know what i am going to do. I've been trying to source the book Debilyn recommended but haven't had much luck downloading it on kindle because Amazon keeps asking me to change my account and switch all of my devices over to a different account and I am getting confused in the process. Maybe I need to go to f2f meetings but I have felt so depressed these past two weeks I feel like I am dragging myself around most of the time and everything seems like such an effort at the moment...

Thanks for listening to me rant...

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, going to f2f meetings is a very good idea on your part. Although MIP is a good place to find support, f2f meetings are the place for us to find a sponsor, develop personal relationships with others in the program, and to get help working the program for ourselves. Dragging yourself around most of the time is an effect of alcoholism on you. Attending the meetings for an hour may very well be the only peace you'll experience for an hour or more each week. The time you experience peace will increase for you as you get involved with Al-Anon members support and program work if you keep an open mind, listen, learn and apply what you learn to yourself and your life. Your A's disease is zooming in on every soft spot you have. It's desire is to keep you on its hook. Meetings will help you get off the hook and discover ways to stay off the hook.

Southerngirl · Veteran Member

Reading through this thread has been such a blessing to me. I'm so sorry that any of us have to deal with this mess - but knowing I'm not alone in it makes it somehow more tolerable. I started Al-Anon with a local f2f group and then found this forum. It's amazing how much it helps. I have no words of wisdom for you, Rainbow, but I'll tell you you aren't alone. Once you step into the al-anon family, we're never really alone again. That brings me great comfort and I hope it does you, too.

Flower49 · Senior Member

Everything posted in these threads has helped me so much today. I was crazy angry with yet another 30 days restriction my husband has in the 3/4 way house. I let him know that full force too!. I was able to talk to the house manager and while it's not the best it's ok. He will let us attend our marriage counseling, he doesn't care how often or when I visit and I fell out of my chair when he said he was glad I have a program. Not many do and then can't figure out why they can't see if their relationship will work out. So now instead of the anger I felt, I feel some peace and was able to detach from my AH with love. I suggested to him we make a schedule of visiting and we stick to it. That gives me a boundary on not just running out to see him on a drop of a dime and it gives him boundaries to ensure he has time to keep going with his recovery. When he wanted to insert a few crazy "isms" on me this weekend I simply said That sounds like a problem and said no more. It is hard work to work this program it really is because it's easy to fall back into our old ways at the snap of a finger. I am glad you here, you can learn so much, be provided a safe place to talk about your stuff and we all love you no matter what!

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

Yes, I've been through this. When someone could no longer get mileage out of me by continuing to use me, they don't like it. Once I began focusing on myself, it was hard to even consider turning my back on myself in favor of doing the same things I did in the past with the drinker and expecting it would be different. From my experience when I kept recovering, he began to understand I was serious. The key was staying consistent with new boundaries.

I don't believe he thinks your husband believes you're game playing. I believe he feels threatened by your new independence from him and his disease. All we can do is just keep doing what feels healthy and respectful of you and others as well. We share similarities in this program but each of us has our own personal experience with alcoholism which is unique to us. I've learned in our own time how to be supportive and loving of others without giving my personal power away to them. To be honest, sometimes we lose people we love along the way because they are selfish, want us to say and do what only they want and we refuse. Only you know what To Thine Own Self Be true means for you. Keep coming back to share and read and you'll find answers that are right for you and your life. Thank you for joining us here for recovery and for your share. TT

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

If someone was making threats to cheat on me, or engage in sexual escapades directly with the purpose to hurt me or control me, I think I would hit the road. That is just me though. That behavior sounds sadistic and like your A seems to believe you are his sex object. I worry he will escalate to violence making statements like that. They are already somewhat violent.

Threats of acting out to hurt another ARE violent by nature. It is domestic abuse rainbow. Please be careful and take good care of yourself.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

His latest behaviors are abusive. I hope you chose to get to al anon meetings before his behaviors destroy you more than they already have. Your anger is your friend trying to get you into action, NOW.

rainbow · Veteran Member

All this support is very humbling. Thank you all again. You are really helping me a lot.

I didn't get to a f2f meeting today but I went to an online meeting which helped.

Things are pretty tense and weird between us. Im not trying to solve this. I dont want to. I feel numb. I didnt do this he did. He is quiet but it feels like the quiet before the storm. I don't see how I could turn back like he wants even if I wanted to which I don't! And I'm scared as hell as to what is going to happen next. He has never been physically violent so I'm not worried about that. I think we will have to separate unless he has some kind of epiphany which I highly doubt...

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I find it helpful to focus on myself and to deal with things as they happen one day at a time. That helps me to "keep it simple." If I feel overwhelmed, its usually because my attention has been grabbed by memories of the past or fears for the future. I can stop than mental whirring by noticing my body, consciously relaxing it, focusing on my breathing and changing it from shallow to deeper, concentrate on the surroundings where my body is placed until I am feeling more peaceful. Another help is repeating the Serenity Prayer and concentrating on the meaning of each word or going for a walk in nature which always help to restore me to a more peaceful state.

rainbow · Veteran Member

Thanks grateful. I will definitely try to be more mindful and come back into the present.

Spent an awesome day with my grandson but it all went awry tonight when A got upset serving up little dudes pizza. the craziness of this disease ! I mean who cares if little dude wants to break his pizza off with his hands and put it on his plate himself? great he had that independence i thought! i was shocked that A angrily threw (yes he definitely threw them) his knife and fork narrowly missing my grandson as they hit the table. I could not believe my eyes And neither could my grandson who"piped up that was no accident. The echo of Pinkchips words came thundering into my mind about A possibly becoming violent the more I change and focus on myself. today we had discussed calmly if we should end it. I have stuck to speaking my inner truth and he doesn't like it. Another positive shift has occurred for me and while he was berating me with the usual accusations of game playing etc i just repeated "sure whatever you reckon will work for you". I didn't feel the need to try to explain myself (new for me) And I noticed im not feeling that cold anger as much. I feel a bit more accepting of where we are at ATM and don't feel anywhere near as scared about what will happen Next. I'm sitting with this acceptance and im willing to wait and see what comes up next. But I've told him I won't ever put up with that physical violence again. He denied he threw the utensils then said its my fault and threatened to leave. Same ol same old. I said if he did that he wold hurt our grandson badly and could he just wait until he was asleep and then leave. It was hilarious in a wAy, the sheer madness of it all. He had his toothbrush sticking out of his back pocket and his suitcase packed. he seemed almost lost when I asked him to contain his anger and leave later for the sake of our grandson. I said its his choice and walked downstairs and left him to it. He is still here but in a different bedroom. I feel comfortqble with that...

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Things are clearly escalating and I hope you will take care of yourself. You know now that in his anger he is capable of things that you wouldn't have believed before.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm with Mattie on this, rainbow. The disease is unpredictable. Throwing knives in the direction of a child is especially troublesome to me. Sending you lots of prayers and encouragement.

rainbow · Veteran Member

I keep thinking over what happened. he threw them down.no doubt about that but I don't think he intended to harm. Frustration at not getting his own way. Hmmm that's bullying a five year old.

He said we were yelling at him which just isn't true! he refused to apologize saying its our fault he did that. I realized it was Day 3,no drinking presumably due to grandson being around. Anyway I have set a new boundary with him in private that if he doesn't want to own that bad behaviour and apologise that's his choice but we can't be around him at meal times and its not safe for our grandson to be with him alone. He is very angry at this and saying he is going to leave.

Holding my ground in this rather than sweeping it under the carpet is very scary and exciting at the same time. Step 1. I can't control him or the situation

... but I am not powerless and i can change what's within my control and live by my values.

I won't try to stop him and I hope he goes.

Thanks for being here for me!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

What I want to know is if the toothbrush is still in his back pocket? :*)

On a serious note - It takes courage to say No to his threatening behavior - especially considering that this little guy is only 5. I know he is your husband and there is a part of me that truly would like to brush his teeth. Good on you, Grandma. You're looking out for this little one and for yourself. That disease can be nasty.

rainbow · Veteran Member

No the toothbrush is gone grateful...he is not my husband grateful he is a long term partner and we don't live together all the time. We never moved in after a failed attempt a few years ago due to his problems with A. I listened to my gut then and didn't move in. At that time I blamed myself, he blamed me, you know the story, but since being on MIP I have grown so much and I know now that his A made me sick too....this disease is madness.

After my last post, he put me in a situation where i had to reconfirm my position and the consequence and he became violent to me!!!!!! kicked me in the leg and my breast and told me I am a psycho. I walked away telling him that he is not going to do this to me ever again. Thank god my grandson didn't see this happening and didn't hear anything. I am stunned. My heart has stopped racing and I have tried to act normal so that my grandson can go home without a weight on his mind.

Seems the more I work Step 1 the worse things are getting. I don't think I played into the drama he just created. I spoke my truth with detached love and removed myself from him straight away when he lost it and then I told him his going to have to leave as he clearly cannot control himself. Can someone tell me what is going on? Why is he behaving like?

not feeling safe at all....

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Rainbow - I've pm'd you.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Prayers for rainbow, her grandson and bf, please?

-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 2nd of October 2014 10:35:32 PM

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Prayers. Stay safe. Call police if you have to. Seems clear he doesn't like boundaries. He stated he was annoyed and viewed it as game playing from the start. He is feeling threatened and wants you to keep playing by his rules. You don't want any more stand offs with him. Safety comes first.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

And I'm not saying you did anything wrong...just that he's not safe to communicate with right now.

rainbow · Veteran Member

Hi all
I'm safe and I'm not communicating about anything "controversial" with him anymore unless we are in a public place. i just don't feel safe to be around him alone at this point. He has crossed over to the dark side and I feel I don't know him. I don't understand how it could get to this from where we were but clearly for him our relationship is about power and control over me. I've told him I'm going to go to police if he ever assaults me again. I'm also going to tell my daughter what happened at dinner last night. My grandson is back safely with her and he seems fine and his normal self. i think I'm in shock but I'm ok and feeling stronger now. Thanks for your prayers, suggestions and support. Don't know where I'd be without you!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

(((rainbow)))

Temple · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh, Rainbow,

I am so sorry--words seem inadequate.

Your Grandson is empowered--That was not an accident! Bless his little heart.

I've no experience, but it seems that this should be reported. That's just me.

I'm so glad you aren't married to this man. I hope you are safe from his entering your house.

His behavior has the purpose of controlling you.

Prayers,
Temple

rainbow · Veteran Member

(((grateful and temple)))). There's a lot for me to process...

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree, rainbow. There is a lot for you to process. I like that you saw a way to take good care of yourself last night and that you were also able to get your grandson back home with his Mom. You paid attention to your reality and changed what you could change last night. You appear to be doing the same today.

rainbow · Veteran Member

I feel so sad. I know this is going to be painful as we have saparated before for a year due to the disease. We decided to give it another go but its clearly not working. Just never ever imagined he could get physically violent! He know i abhore abuse and physical violence is no go zone. for me. no excuses. not on. no way. It's one thing to try to cope with the madness of the disease, codependency issues and another to accept with detached love physical violence. im NOT doing it under any circumstances. what if he does it again and worse? dead is dead.

can see now he wasnt genuine about wanting to make meaningful change when he asked me to give it another go whereas i was and i still am but thabks to al anon and MIP im finding myself healing me. i am able to own my part of the drama unlike him and seems he had no intention of getting serious. his choice. im focused on me . I desperately want to move forward postively with my life. not too much to ask .

I can feel my HP is with me and I'm reading Al anon literature, relationahip stufff about real intimacy and have plans to get to a f2f meeting no matter what this week and of course stay online here and go to online meetings even if i have to stay up lat e its worth it. im just letting go and trusting my HP who i can feel is helping me to seek out the right path. ((Hugs)) so lucky to have found MIP. Onwards and upwards to a better life for me. Wish him well but his issues are not my problem. I can only change me live by my values and be who I am with the amazing beautiful people in my life (new and old) knowing I'm not judged controlled criticised put down manipulated or hit. I am a very kind caring compassionate optimistic person as normal old me, i work in health services and I love helping people overcome the bumps in their road by empowering them to make positive change. My A tricked me that is the disease it is his disease and his responsibility to change its impact on him not mine. Now he has done this I need space to be with my HP and let go and be true to me and who I am in this and what I want to stand in this part of my li journey. ((Hugs))

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Many, many prayers for you, rainbow. Taking care of you is your number 1 priority and I am glad to see you know that.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Good for you. Good self care!

rainbow · Veteran Member

Thanks PC and grateful smile . Your help has been enormously valuable to getting me through this.

This morning, I'm feeling like my relationship with A has to be over because he went too far. There's no chance of any healthy communication around what he has done so I'm not even going to bother trying because he won't or isn't capable or just doesn't want to take any responsibility for what he did and I know I am powerless over that.

So I'm feeling quite low this morning at the reality of it all.

My options seem to be that either I sweep what he did under the carpet and go back to working the program from within the relationship or I stick to what my gut is telling me and get out, no matter how hard it is going to be. Gonna go for a walk on the beach and see if that clears my head. I feel so sad.

I want to cry but can't. Needing some ESH if you can give (((hugs)))

rainbow · Veteran Member

I just feel so sad that it is over now and I can't cry. The walk helped.

I also talked to my A and we are reaching an understanding of sorts that it has to be over.
He put his hand out and asked if we can try again but I couldn't hold his hand back because
I don't want to try anything of the same any more
I feel like I am the one who has been putting in all the work.
Sure I am no angel and not perfect, but he does not own any of his part
in any of this and that is why I think my HP is guiding me to end it....finally. For good.

I can't help but wonder how much of his denial is the disease and how much is attributable
to his personality and beliefs about how relationships should work. He is big on not losing face.
Either way, I know that I can't turn back. On that my head is clear now.

Sending ((hugs)) Thank god for MIP I think I would have not have coped as well without being able to come here.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It's ironic that he's accused you of game-playing when he's now asking if you can try again - when his real question is "Can I be violent to her and get away with it? Can I make her sweep it under the rug?"

My A was not violent but I did keep establishing a bottom line and as soon as he'd violate it, I'd establish a new, lower bottom line. "I'll leave if you ever do X." "You did X. I'll leave if you ever do X again." "You did X again. I'll leave if you ever do X and Y." "You did X and Y. I'll leave if you ever do X and Y again." "You did X and Y again..."

Basically I had my own addiction to him and it was stronger than my self-protection. I devoutly hope I never do that to myself again.

One thing that always strikes me is how sad we are at leaving them, when what we are leaving is abuse, distrust, doubt, and misery. Why did I feel so sad? I guess it was the loss of the dream that it would be as good as it was in the first wonderful stage (which was very early on). I kept hoping I could recapture that. It was hard to face the reality that it wasn't coming back. But it wasn't coming back whether or not I stayed with him. A lot of grief - made worse by how long I waited for it to come back.

Please take good care of yourself. I hope that if you continue in your determination to leave and remove yourself from the danger of physical abuse, you'll make a careful plan (don't tell him without anyone else there) and be cautious and prudent. We know now that there's no question that he's capable of physical abuse and that he'll go farther than you ever dreamed in an attempt to control you. Hugs.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.