Still in the throws .. :) - Al-Anon Family Group

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Still in the throws .. :)

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

I'm a lot more focused on ME and what I need to do for me in terms of forgiveness .. I think I have gone around the wrong way of doing it in terms of what I can wrap my pea sized brain around .. I have decided to just start with me and move forward to others from there .. I don't know if that makes sense .. if I can't forgive myself there is no way to forgive others and I didn't realize the resentments I have held against me. So I'm applying the steps in that way to work towards forgiveness with others. To just forgive someone else .. that just doesn't work for me .. I can forgive me for my part and then let theirs go .. that's what forgiving others means to me .. STILL I don't have to allow the other person back in if they have shown themselves not to be trustworthy at that point I'm volunteering to be a victim again.

Serenity - thank you for sharing this. I really like this piece about self focus and resentments that you've shared. I'm revisiting this and am realizing what I resent in others are often a reflection of unacceptable behaviors that I exhibit too. I've heard in Alanon "When you can spot it, you've got it," referring to unacceptable behaviors. Of course on the up side we can spot our progress too and how far we've come in our recovery.

Your words above made me think of the loss of focus I've been experiencing lately. For myself, it's included a loss of humility when interacting with others along with finger pointing. I've become complacent lately concerning certain aspects of my program particularly in the "Keep an Open Mind," and tolerance area. It's resulted in a disconnect between myself and my loving higher power. This is the stinking thinking place that comes from the case I build against others, resentments I accumulate and the unhealthy verbal communication, thoughts and actions that I take based on that thinking. It's a major slip in my recovery to sit in judgement and expect others to behave to my expectations no matter how well intended my proposal may seem to ME. I feel best when choices I'm making are coming from a place of balanced thinking. I'm trying to regain that balanced thinking by not being so shut down to listening based on unpleasant past experiences, to keep an open mind and use THINK (thoughful, honest, necessary and kind) as much as possible, take a breath and invite hp it all. My thoughts, communications and actions don't have to be predicated on past experiences with others or my own past inabilities. I have tools now and recovery. If I'm mindful and centered, things go better. I think I did this pretty successfully on Friday with others and myself because I let go of fear and catastrophsizing and let my hp lead. I gave up preconceived notions of others' intentions and the progressive spiraling down of my program that comes when I project about their intentions. I have spent some hot, stuffy and breathless days recently lost in other people's heads.

I had a lot more serenity from truly letting go and letting god.

Thanks for being here and for your share. ((hugs)) TT

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Recognizing your resentments toward yourself - HUGE - Serenity.

As to the divorce - perhaps your statement - people get there when they get there can also be applied to that? You'll get to it and through it when you get to it and through it? I can tell you from my own experience that divorce doesn't settle anything as much as it just frees one from some financial and spousal obligations and creates a bit of court ordered structure that can't usually be trumped. That's about all I noticed was true about the divorce action from my vantage point.

On visitation - my daughter stopped going to her Dad's when she reached teen years for awhile. She had had enough of his bologna and told him so. She also was very clear in what she would not accept or tolerate when with him and told him she wouldn't return to spend time with him until he changed some of his behavior. He was surprised and she gained confidence in her ability to say what she meant, meant what she said and didn't say it mean. I had nothing to do with it either. I didn't know until she returned from a weekend with him what had transpired and didn't learn until last week - some 20 or so years later - the entire story. There were things she didn't want me to know as a teen because she wanted to deal with some of it on her own with him. I truly didn't know why she didn't want to spend time with him back then. I knew what she did tell me wasn't the entire story but pushing her to tell me more would have resulted in her telling me nothing after that. I didn't insist she spend time with him because I knew she did love him and if she didn't want to be with him - it had to be a really big thing. I'm not saying your daughter's experience with her Dad is the same, but I do find myself wondering if there is more to the story for her that she is keeping to herself for her own reasons? My daughter kept the rest of her story to herself because she didn't want me involved - not in an effort to protect me but in an effort to deal with her relationship to her Dad without my input or what she knew would probably be my response to what she experienced in relationship to her Dad.

Anyway - good to see that you are experiencing a lot more serenity in letting go and letting God. (((S)))

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Hugs Tired,

I love where you are at .. I really do. You are coming from a much better place than I am .. I guess because I'm still in the throws of chaos the other stuff will fall into place or I will become aware of it as the chaos subsides .. right now .. nooo .. not feeling that my behavior has been unacceptable in terms of recent behavior. My boundaries are stronger. I just don't have time for games.

As an example I text my STBAX's s/mom who we used to be very, very close .. well that was 7 days previous to today about some things that I was in the process of getting rid of .. there is this control aspect that goes on with her and the STBAX with my time .. LOL .. I guess in their mind I don't have a life? I don't know .. it doesn't even matter really .. anyway, there were things that she had loaned me and at the time had asked for them back .. so I let her know I was cleaning, found the items (we are talking 2 years ago .. LOL) and let me know what she wanted to do. Well .. true to form .. 7 days later I hear from her .. I'm sorry .. I don't have time or patience to wait .. this is part of my personality as well .. someone gives me rope in terms of time I will hang myself with it waiting on them and then some .. procrastination issues bad .. so the iron is hot I now strike .. guess what .. I don't live in a house and I'm still wading through boxes. I waited 72 hours for a response ... ANYTHING .. I'm busy .. I'll get back to you .. there was nothing .. well .. my life is moving forward in a positive way which means clear out the junk .. so the items were removed from my home. Nothing expensive .. still though .. I let her know I was sorry however I sent the original message 7 days previously and unfortunately I hadn't heard from her so the items are no longer in my care. You know it is what it is .. and it's just not my issue in that regard. I don't mean that in a mean way .. it really just is what it is .. and she is aware that I just really don't sit around waiting or worrying will someone get back to me. In the past and fairly recently past as in the last 12 months .. now I am just not going to waste time on it.

When I'm talking about forgiving myself I guess with the death of my s/dad and for the first time I can really take a deep breath and not feel caged in some way .. I'm talking about forgiving myself for being a vulnerable child, not protecting myself better, forgiving myself for not being perfect, forgiving myself for not being a boy, forgiving myself for all of those things that I have no control over .. I can then have a different perspective about my own situation. Maybe I won't see myself as so wronged as I have .. my perception of history will be different and the people I think I should forgive .. maybe it really is just in my mind and there was no real transgression it was my perception. Now .. abuse, infidelity, breaking vows .. those are NOT my behaviors and that IS unacceptable behavior. I won't tolerate that from anyone else in my lifetime .. that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with a very sick individual/s. So I will not take ownership of what is not mine. His drinking that is his as well.

You are definitely coming from a more altruist point in terms of present which I applaud you for big time. I'm not even close to being able to forgive my STBAX and honestly until the divorce wraps .. it's on my hell no list for amends. Again I go back to me and looking at my past behaviors without beating myself up to see where I can do better .. it is just not about the other person for me at all .. maybe I'm way off track and sounding very selfish in that regard .. whatever another person does or doesn't do .. I am in a very weird detached mode that it only matters what I do or don't do. Now .. he screws with the kids and my detachment is going to be like a ring through his nose and his nipples and I will be leading the horse by force. So I have moments of what I call program out the 3rd story window because it needs revamped .. lol.

Does any of my rambling make sense and I'm very glad you got something out of my share .. I'm just in a very different place .. kind of like an out of body experience so to speak.

Hugs S :)

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful,

If it wasn't for the fact I have no family here and he sees the kids soooo little and this directly affects her brother in terms of he's 10 and is just now learning to use his voice with his dad I wouldn't push her to go. I don't push her as much as she knows her dad isn't to be trusted with where he is at and she doesn't want to be the one to end visitation with her dad and have her brother not go because of it. I don't know if that makes sense or not. The 8 hours I get and this weekend it will be 11 hours total is the only time I have had to recharge so I can be a better parent to the kids. She tells her therapist everything and I am aware that I don't have all access to what goes on. If I am lucky I get 22 hours in a month to myself completely where I can focus and I struggle with distractions being raised by someone with ADHD .. I have learned behavior I have only just begun to work on. The kids and I work jointly on what we call "surviving visitation" .. lol. Their therapist is awesome and encourages the kids to spend time with their dad and not when they don't want to. I need time and I have explained that to the kids so I can be better they both are fully aware visitation will probably stop completely at some point this year .. I just feel it in my bones and the kids can sense it too. He's made comments and is always giving my daughter money so she will have "other plans so it's ok to cancel visitation". That was the statement yesterday. It's to much guilt, to much shame and to much responsibility for him to deal with .. there is no emotional buffer. He definitely wants us to move because he has made statements to the kids about it .. so when is your mom going to move back to California .. LOL? REALLY? He wants to come and visit 2x a year .. Umm .. whatever .. NOT with me he's not. LOL!!!

Hugs S :)

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I forgot to add they both got up in a much better move and decided to opt for visitation 1230 - 3. That works out great because we will have time to do a few things and get ready for school tomorrow AND they will have time to have whatever meltdown after dealing with dad. It takes about 2 hours to every 1 hour based upon whatever stupidity he has come up with for that day. The porn upset my daughter more than my son incidentally.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I really liked what you said about forgiveness. Forgiveness has allowed me to progress, for me its a letting go type thing. I agree, forgiving yourself is the key thing. I had to forgive myself for allowing myself to be abused and for joining in on the abuse, my self talk was shocking. I gave myself such a hard time a lot of the time. When I first came to Alanon I was so angry about that, that I had spent years miserable so I had to forgive myself or the self hate would continue.

I tell myself that I did the best with what I knew at the time. Now I know better so Im doing better. I also think now that the years with my ex are actually something to be grateful for now. Those years got me this program and this program has given me a good life now. Forgiveness of the Alcoholics in my life was a gift to myself, its not really about them and its not about allowing it all to happen again. Its not forgetting or changing the relationship in terms of contact, in fact when I learned to forgive my ex I felt free to have zero contact. Im not sure why, it may be that I let go of residual guilt associated with not forgiving him and hating him.

When I came to believe that alcoholism is a disease that he suffers from and that his behavior was never about hurting anyone really, it just was a symptom. I let go of expectations and blame, I got some empathy and I got that saying for the first time, ... but for the grace of God go I. It could have been me suffering from it.

Forgiving him and having compassion put him right in his place as far as my thoughts went, he became the farthest thing from my mind in many ways, his comments to my kids or his actions have became opportunities for me to detach and demonstrate that tool to them. Holding on to anger and resentment only hurt me and now I dont feel much resentment, it does return now and again but it passes quickly because there is no way i will allow much head space to him and his antics. Thanks for the share.x

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I DO believe that it is a disease .. it's the only disease that will tell you .. you don't have a disease .. well .. that's not true because mental illness will tell someone they are ok and they are not. I guess that's why for me I can accept alcoholism has physical effects that goes with addiction and that it is also a mental illness. I hate to think of it in terms of cancer because while I know people who choose not to get treatment for cancer .. the disease does not lie, cheat, steal from the people in the cancer patience lives .. outside of time. It takes that without question. If I go out and kill innocent person and I'm drunk does that make me less accountable for my actions? I made a choice, it wasn't a good choice .. I still made a choice. Do you think that the victim of the family I killed cares that "my disease made me do it" line of defense? I'm sure they don't .. I certainly wouldn't. So while my STBAX's behavior is not personal and I really don't take it as such .. I do not look to make excuses for him either. I'm so glad that I can come here and there are other people far wiser and farther along in their program because I'm just not there .. yet .. I will get there .. just not today .. and I'm ok with that .. lol .. in the words of Khalil in VeggieTales. I love that little worm .. LOL.

That whole forgiving myself and unlearning the self hate tapes .. that's where my focus is .. if I don't hate me there is no room to hate anyone else. I heard in the rooms one day Hate uses up all my good. That really stuck with me through a LOT of things .. I really, really like that line. If hate uses up all my good then when I get to where I love myself there is no room for hate to use up my good and that's what radiates out.

I have no compassion for him at the moment because I have no patience with him. If I let go of my anger who the hell am I? If I could just get divorced at this point I think in the long run things would move much better for me in the healing .. I'm ready for it for sure.

Hugs and thank for being here this helps me work through some thoughts I have been having this past couple of weeks .. obviously I had more to say than I realized .. LOL!!!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I think that happens a lot, where we say one thing and lots of issues are reveal led. I recognise that with my own posts and sometimes I think, don't they get what I mean but actually people read between the lines and there are other things that have stood out. To me, its interesting that you said if you let go of the anger then who the hell are you. I remember feeling this way. I felt strong in my anger, as if I could take on the world. There is a certain power in it, I only got it when I got awareness of the reality of my life so the anger was a big part of my progress. It did pass though, the anger and when I did work through it, it was replaced with serenity. I just felt like I grew up and felt at ease with the world just as it is, it was a huge weight off my shoulders. Dont get me wrong that feeling and serenity is not that easy to come by day by day, if im working a strong program then it is but i let my own will slip into control now and again and then before I know it my inner spoilt child raises its head and stamps its feet when things dont go my way.lol. In fact just this week I got that reminder. I hope that anger leaves you soon, maybe when your divorce is over with you will be able to heal that wound.x

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I think about the anger I USED to have and what I have now in comparison .. I'm a LOT further down the road than I was without question. LOL!! Even just 6 months ago I have a huge difference in experience in terms of knowing anger or knowing that it's not really anger, something else is brewing I just never knew I had a choice outside of anger. I credit that with EMDR far more than Alanon really because I was able to get to some serious core issues I had to deal with. I don't mean just starting with the STBAX it goes WAY WAY WAY back .. and I'm grateful that I don't have to be there anymore. I was angry that I can remember starting about 5 years old and it was a feeling of helplessness that I had in my adopted family. It was the only feeling I could remember ever having .. which is interesting. I was a very serious child .. both my parents would comment on that fact. I saw things very differently even at that age I could tell what was and wasn't ok .. I lost that ability when I got involved in an actual relationship I was probably 17, 18 years old. Now I'm getting back there without the intensity of the anger that part as left outside of when I feel helpless .. I do not like that feeling I can deal with a lot .. let me feel helpless and I will just unload in anger.

Sometimes people see more than someone writes .. it does happen from time to time and that part takes time to process .. let's face it .. it's writing there are no voice nuances or facial cues to really tell what someone is communicating so all we have are written words and our experiences which differ. There can be a lot of projection as to what someone has written because there are no physical cues and some people are just more gifted at getting to the point. I'm not one of those people .. LOL!

I can't remember if I read it here or not .. some of us travelled a long ways to get to this place of healing and some have a shorter journey because the insanity started far later. So everyone is in a different place of healing and had different amounts of time in the program. Which is why it works really .. someone has been where someone else is at some point .. can a connection be made and is the willingness to learn there.

Hugs S :)

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

No one means addiction is like cancer. They just mean it is a disease too with its own symptoms. Addiction symptoms include lying, manipulating etc. Cancer does not.

He is their dad, who is sick. I find it horribly hard to read how they think of him. He is still their daddy. My dad was not perfect, but my Mother never put him down or talked about issues in front of us.

I loved him so very much.If he made a mistake, he was human like everyone. All kids need to know is their parents both love them. Even if one does not look so hot to us, does not engage etc becuz they are very sick with addiction.

If my child said that to me about the tantrums, I would have said,"honey your daddy is very sick with a disease. He still loves you very much.Part of his disease is he can make decisions that seem off to us."

Just sharing how i feel. Sometimes when we are in it, we don't see the possible damage that is happening.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Deb .. HE has DONE all of that damage himself .. I have explained their dad is sick. The kids go to a counselor who is working with them on how to have a relationship with someone who is completely emotionally unavailable .. she has explained that he is sick and they are seeing it as an excuse. He has created LOTS of bad feelings with his behavior and no apology. HE walked out for 8 months never explained ANYTHING when he came back. HE has stolen from them. HE is CONSTANTLY making promises and NOT following through. HE is sick .. saying that to a teenager and a preteen only goes so far. HE is completely checked out. The only time he calls them is he is hoping there is NO visitation that weekend. He has NO contact by HIS choice. My kids are getting to a point that they are not interested in trying to forge a relationship with him. THAT IS HIS ISSUE NOT MINE .. he will have to work that out with them and maybe when they are older he can have a relationship with them of some kind. He has not gotten help .. he is not making things easy on ANYONE those are HIS choices.

When YOU walk in MY shoes and YOU pay MY bills YOU can tell me how to raise MY kids.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.