guns - Al-Anon Family Group

ssilver · Member

guns

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

When my A announced he had started recovery (which he did many times), I'd breathe a big sigh of relief and think, "Our troubles are over at last!"

I didn't realize that many start recovery compared to the few who stick with it. Recovery is hard and addictions are powerful. My A was sober for a year and a half at least, once, and many times for many months. It is now many years later and he is still drinking.

Which is to say that you have ample time to find out whether his recovery sticks. There is no hurry. You can return home in three years, if his recovery is still going strong. Or five years.

They like to give us a sense of urgency about how fast we have to return home, how fast we have to decide "yes" or "no" about continuing the relationship. That sense of urgeny is a sign that their recovery is not very strong.

About the guns, I'm sure there are many good answers. My personal feeling is that I don't want a volatile, possibly drunk person in charge of either a car or a gun. Sure, they mean well - they don't mean to go out a kill anybody. (Usually!) But drinking distorts their judgment. They play around with these things. Point them at people or themselves. Leave guns out or loaded or forget about them somewhere. My question is always, "Would I let this person take care of a child?" If not, I wouldn't personally leave them in charge of a car or a dangerous weapon.

But you may wish to disentangle yourself from hearing from him all the time, which could mean giving him the keys back. There may be no perfect answer. Regardless, I hope you'll keep working your recovery and taking good care of yourself.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

If those are his guns and his gun case then yes, you are trying to control what he does. Unless he has a record, he can go out and buy a whole new case of guns. As far as he'd rather drink to his death than shoot himself to death? What????!!!! He sounds depressed to me - still. I know others might not agree with me but I'd hang on to the keys as long as possible - controlling or not - if I thought somebody wasn't in their right mind but I'd still be aware that if it is a glass case, it can easily broken and I'm simply not in control of the outcome. I'm just in control of trying to help delay or prevent gun use by a person affected by the disease of alcoholism. In cases like this, I doubt there is one way fits all answer to your questions. Continuing your program work, living one day at a time, turning your life into the care of your HP and trusting your AH into the care of his might help you enjoy some peace and also hear some options you might not have thought of on your own?

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 1st of August 2014 01:18:32 PM

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

A locked case can be broken into, if he wanted them badly enough, he'd get them. You only control you - if you don't want guns around you when/if you are with him, don't be around him unless he gives up the guns. My ex would occasionally play the "maybe I don't want to live, I'm sitting here with my guns, knives, etc." and at first I would react exactly the way he wanted me to - panic and give in and baby him through "it". I got wise to it, or hardened to it, and stopped reacting that way and guess what? he stopped hinting at it. Letting go means just that, giving in and letting go of a situation that isn't yours to control. And how much control do you really have anyway? He can go buy more guns, he found a pistol, if he wanted to use it, he would.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

More food for thought as I pondered this issue. My 27 year old son had oral surgery this morning complete with lots of sedation. I went with him, stayed during the procedure and drove him away in his car following the procedure. As I parked in the lot of the pharmacy to get his prescriptions filled, I pulled the keys from the ignition. He wanted me to leave him the keys as he wanted to listen to some music. I said "nope". Since it was his car and keys, did he have the right to his property? Yes. Would he have driven off? Probably not, as he is a level headed young man, however, he was under the influence and not in his right mind. I made a decision to keep him safe and others safe. Can this be applied to your situation? I believe so. I made the decision for my son, others and for me. I will minimize the possibilities of feeling guilt anyway I can..

blessed · Senior Member

Well, now that he is reasonable I'm really confused. Am I being controlling or prudent? Any ideas out there?

This made me chuckle, only because I experienced the same thing last week. As we were dividing up assets on paper, that I will take to my atty for review, he was being somewhat "normal". But, a few days later when I implemented what we had talked about (took $ out of bank) he had no recollection of the conversation. Be careful if you start believing what they say. Really. We want to believe they suddenly came to their senses, but if they are drinking, they are not all there.

If it ain't in writing, it ain't binding in a court of law. And I am sure there could also be an argument to, "he was drunk when he signed it so it is not admisable." He could say, "I don't remember signing that." etc. etc.

If they are still drinking, ust don't get sucked into temporary moments of what seems to be normal behavior. This too shall pass. :)

ssilver · Member

Thank you guys for your comments. I see you agree that there is not a definitive answer. He is not drinking, has been sober 45 days and counting, is going to daily meetings and looking for a sponsor, etc. He just returned home from rehab and is much more himself it seems. He is not recovered but beginning to recover. The gun cabinet belongs to him and I am not in the house. He has not tried suicide or pointed a gun at anyone. I do wish to be "disentangled" and out of all his business. With this, my inclination is to return his keys and wish him well. I felt like giving them back, but did not know how irresponsible that was.

I guess I am trying to read the future without a crystal ball. He has detoxed in a hospital twice before but without follow-up care. He lapsed within a few weeks both times but slowly and secretly, so I did not figure it out right away. I took the keys because he would apparently look at or handle his collection and forget to lock them up. I once found a pistol on the bed he'd forgotten to replace. His explanation was that he was going to clean it, which was bogus. So, since I did not want anyone to be shot "accidentally" I took charge.

I agree with Mattie's take on the sense of urgency. What is the hurry? The more he pushes the more alarmed I am. He may have figured that out since he has since backed off on his request. Oh, I'm sooo suspicious. That is my own illness popping up. Is he reasonable or just manipulative? I do love him, so I want to believe he is reasonable. Maybe I will take him at his word, the last one, and let it go for now. In a week or two I can revisit the issue, if he lets it drop that long.

Okay, so now I'm back to control. I will let you know when I know. Thank you for the opportunity to share/vent. I welcome all your input.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Alongside working my program and speaking to others in recovery, as you have wisely done, when I don't know what to do I do nothing until I know what to do. You will know what to do aww

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

hey one day or forty five, he is still a very sick person. Even at a year sober on program they are shakey.

Myself? I agree with everyone, so many good responses.

Me? I will take keys away if someone is drunk and or let air out of tires...that is ME. I would have taken the guns somewhere else myself. I don't care who's they are, I would keep it locked. What does he need them for anyway? Is he going hunting?

He can get more, he can break it in just like others said. To keep the keys is really for you. You know in your heart you did and are doing your best to keep him safer.

good for you! hugs,deb

deramam · Veteran Member

I have my AH's guns locked in MY gun case. He can have them when he goes hunting. We have a child in the home so if they aren't in there then they wouldn't be here at all. The one is also in my name but he paid for it and if he were to drink while he had that one (which he uses the most for hunting) I wouldn't let him use it ever again. I don't need him accidentally shooting someone with a gun that's in my name while he is drunk. I think you did the right thing by taking them and keeping them since he is just coming out of rehab. I think he's only asking for them so he can have communication with you and to try and get you back. Alcoholics love to be in control of ANYTHING. He doesn't need them now but he doesn't have control over them so it's making him mad. My H would try to control a rock that's just how they are.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

biggrin Deramom!

margob · Member

I have been troubled by how to deal with guns. A long-time friend has been struggling for many years with her addictions to alcohol and benzos, and in recent years, she has started having seizures, and she is now on disability because of them. This past year, her therapist and her psychiatrist have both told her to get her gun - a .38 Ruegger - out of her house. Her therapist told her that unless she did three things - got rid of the gun, weaned off of Klonopin, and went to 90 AA meetings in 90 days, that there was nothing she could do. So my friend stopped going to therapy: those weren't things she would do. Over the past 3-4 months, she has posted every week or so on FaceBook about how "screwed" she is, how awful her life is, how broke she is, how she feels like giving up, and then she starts talking about using her gun... Everyone replies on FB that the gun is not the answer and that she needs to get rid of the gun. But she wouldn't.

I went to her house one day because she had specifically asked for my help carrying a dog who had died into the car so she could have him cremated: I agreed to do this. She sounded upset on the phone, but understandably so. She didn't sound drunk on the phone, but when I got there, it was clear she was in no shape to lift the dog with me, never mind to drive anywhere. She was rambling about giving up, and wanting to die to be with her dog. In short order, she was completely unconscious. I could have done nothing, but I chose to call for help removing the dead dog from her kitchen floor. I feared for her life. I looked for her gun, which I found on a shelf next to the front door, loaded. I called 911, certain that she had consumed a potentially lethal amount of alcohol (which her BAC later at the ER supported). I asked the emergency response people what I should do about the gun, and they recommended turning it over to the police. I agreed and they called a squad car to come, and I turned the gun over to the officers. Well, she sobered up some after 12+ hours in the locked wing of the ER, enough that she could pass a psych eval and sign herself out. I told her what I had done with her gun, and I gave her the case #. She seemed reasonable about it, freshly sober. But over the weeks since then, whenever she gets especially drunk, she obsesses over the loss of her gun "that was removed without my knowledge or consent," and is increasingly angry with me.

In Al-Anon, we learn not to get between the alcoholic and the consequences of their actions. We learn not to do things to cause a crisis. In Al-Anon, we learn to put the focus on ourselves. In Al-Anon, we learn that we didn't cause it, can't cure it, and can't control it. And yet, there I was, calling the police and giving them her gun. No one I've told this story to - none of my friends, none of her friends, none of her "friends" on FaceBook, and no one in an Al-Anon meeting - has been anything but supportive of my decision and action. Well, except for her. I know when she lashes out at me about this, it is her disease speaking. I am conflicted, not because of what she says to me, but because I am thinking about my own recovery: I interfered. I took control. I caused a crisis. I could have walked out the door that day and left her blacked out, with a dead dog on the kitchen floor and 3 live ones running around the house. It was my choice to stay and do what I did. I'm not perfect. The fact that I am weighing my own defects of character about my choices tells me that I am making progress in my own recovery. I have apologized to her, but my amends end there: I will not do anything to help her regain possession of that gun because I believe she would injure herself with it. And I can live with that.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi. From what I've read here, your friend caused the crisis. She was sick. She had threatened suicide. She had called you to help with her dead dog. I'm a firm believer in common sense. I have to weigh what I learn in Al-Anon and do what is appropriate in a situation. I would have done the same thing you did if I showed up on that scene. Checking your motives as to why you did what you did might be a help to you? It really doesn't matter what other people think. It matters what you think. Seems to me you kept your head in that situation. You became aware of the situation. You accepted it. You took what appeared to be the most sensible action available to you at the time. The 3As. That's also an Al-Anon suggestion to follow. It doesn't matter now what you did then. We can all look back to second guess ourselves, but in my experience, it robs me of today. Thanks for your share. Today, you're safe. She's alive. Nobody was harmed. The dog was cremated. Sounds like Good Orderly Direction to me.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 16th of January 2015 06:47:58 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 16th of January 2015 06:49:23 PM

margob · Member

Thank you. I hadn't heard of the "3As" before.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

If you are concerned for your own recovery, then I would examine my motives, for taking the action and determining that I was not attempting to punish this person but acted in a appropriate manner to the situation I would say so and move on.

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

Was down this road a long time ago. It's frightening, I understand. I tried to protect my ex from himself but in the end I left him in the hands of his hp. I wasn't powerful enough to save him from the grips of his addiction or anything that went with that including his fascination with other things that weren't in his best interest. We were in a divorce and I simply left what he owned behind and left with my sanity although I can tell you it surely didn't feel like that at the time. There really is no way to do damage control. There is always a next thing. Trust me he can find more guns and more of anything he's hell bent on getting. You can let go, it's ok to let go. Even after it was over, I thought omg who will take care of him, who will care enough about him to understand what he goes through. I thought this because no one in his family was in recovery. Meanwhile, with time and experience in Alanon I learned it wasn't unloving to step aside, to let go and stop trying to do for him what only God could. It was very hard to connect my mind and heart concerning this but I realized my own life was fading into the background while I spent my time worrying about him and trying to safeguard him from himself. Others in the program assured me it wasn't selfish and I reached a point of such exhaustion that I decided to give it a try. Prayers coming your way as you decide what's best to do in this situation. (((hugs))) TT

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

One thing I know - if somebody is really wanting to end it all - they will. There may be various interruptions along the way, but if they mean it, they'll do it. Often, they don't tell somebody they are going to commit suicide because they don't want interference with their plan. They might start giving things away that are meaningful for them or acting very, very cheerful after a long time of depression which can seem odd to the people around them. That cheerfulness is a signal that they have made a decision and they are carrying through on it. We truly are powerless even over that much as we don't want somebody to seek a long-term solution to a temporary situation. Taking care of ourselves first is the best solution. And that doesn't mean we can't call the police for a welfare check if we believe somebody is a danger to themselves in a specific situation and we are aware of it.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Friday 16th of January 2015 07:41:57 PM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Prudent...he can still think and have desires. The guns might have been more important a bit back because they are part of his personality (just using my own experiences with guns) and then too he may have reached the point of missing his wife a lot. Keep your boundaries and self support. Meetings and sponsor are really helpful. (((((hugs))))) smile

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.