I think referring to alcoholism as a disease makes people feel obligated to stay with the alcoholic - Al-Anon Family Group

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

I think referring to alcoholism as a disease makes people feel obligated to stay with the alcoholic

sunshine23 · Veteran Member

Yes, I sometimes get frustrated with that too. Is it them or the disease? Either way though, does it matter? We have to seek our own recovery and trying to make sense of it is futile.

However, I would compare alcoholism to a person who knows eating unhealthily would lead to 100 % heart disease. Should I still fuss over this person if he dumps my healthy food every time I cook for him? Probably not. I might not throw him out but I sure would not fuss or remind him anymore. Cancer is not by choice. While putting (drinking/eating) things in your body is.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Alcoholics will use any excuse to keep drinking, of course. My own experience is that I wanted to stay with the alcoholic -- I didn't do it out of guilt. I didn't want the alcoholism, but I wanted the person. I was in denial about how much the alcoholism had swallowed the person.

The way I see it, the underlying tendency towards alcoholism is the disease. It's a disorder, a thing that makes them liable to drink compulsively. But whether they choose to treat the disease or not is up to them. It's just like schizophrenia or diabetes or epilepsy. (I had a friend with epilepsy who was in denial about it. She had been officially diagnosed and had many seizures and frightened everyone and endangered herself and others, but refused to take her medicine or acknowledge that she had the condition.)

There are many kinds of diseases where we can't blame the person for having the underlying condition, but we can very justifiably hold them responsible for whether they treat their disease or not.

Of course the disease model is controversial. Many people do think it lets alcoholics off the hook. My view is that they let themselves off the hook, disease model or no disease model. But on the individual level, as people rather than as policy makers, our job is to let go of trying to make them change, and to direct our own lives back to sanity and serenity.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

I hope your frustration and resentments don't get in the way of finding out about the disease or as some will write "dis-ease". I thought and felt much like you do now in early Al-Anon and what was good for me was that early on they use to read the AMA definition of alcoholism at the start of each meeting and I accepted that my alcoholic/addict wife was a sick person and not a bad person. There is no cure for alcoholism. It can only be arrested...by total abstinence. It is a compulsion of the mind and allergy of the body and the alcoholic has lost the choice of whether they drink or not. It is a progressive disease in that if the alcoholic were to stop for some period of time and then continue it would be as if no period of abstinence had taken place and it would even be worse. Alcoholics do not return to drinking as if they just started they return to where they left off and the disease leads them to do "catch up" on the drinking they missed just as it works with a smoker of cigarettes. Learn as much about alcoholism as you can...I went to college on it so that I would understand alcoholism and other substance abuses. My focus in part was of the phenomenon of genetics...the pre-disposition of those born and raised within the disease as I was. Open AA meetings might help you by listening to the stories of what it was like, what happened and what it is like now for the recovering alcoholic. There is no guarantee. Keep coming back. In support (((((hugs))))) smile

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

This subject comes up often and I too have felt this way as well. Being able to truly accept the difficult realities of the world was one of my major defects. I always trIed to rationalize or justify my denial of reality and go my own way.. I think the Sticky at he top of the Boards reviews this topic very well.

alanon.activeboard.com/t42428736/why-alcoholism-is-categorizedlisted-as-a-disease-by-ama-expl/

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

I always said that if you had cancer there are treatments and things you have to do to go into remission. So I gave the A the list of things that need to happen for the alcoholic to go into remission and my part in it. The diseases are different so the treatment is different.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I acknowledge it is a disease but never have pulled that card for sympathy or special treatment. Anyone with real recovery would not. They would want to be treated like anyone else. Even kids with cancer or terminal illnesses want to just be treated like regular kids. People who have diabetes and want sympathy and excuses will go on about their "disease" or their "sugar" problem rather than take insulin or stick to a dang diet. Similarly, manipulative drunks unwilling to change their personality defects will use the "disease" excuse the same way. People who are really in recovery are more focused on the treatment (AA in this case). So...I would rephrase to not just say "alcoholics use this as an excuse.." to "active alcoholics or ones with no program use the disease model as an excuse." What I have found in both Alanon and AA, is that people who really understand the disease concept don't pity alcoholics OR buy their excuses, yet they do understand this as an insidious illness that warps the mind, body, and spirit, and it's not something that the alcoholic wishes upon themselves. Alcoholism is a disgusting disease. It is sneaky and it worms it's way into a persons body, mind, and soul slowly until they are so sick they can't see clearly. Anyone afflicted (the A and their family) is witnessing or part of a tragedy. Nonetheless, I wouldn't feel bad about leaving someone with a disease either when they did nothing to help themselves or coveted the disease as an excuse to not act like a grown up.

I also think it's important to remember that when a person has been in active alcoholism so long, they become highly codependent and needy. It is often stated that alcoholics don't have relationships, they take hostages. They examples you gave of your AH twisting the disease concept to manipulate are classic examples of that "taking hostage" quality that a codependent active alcoholic, newly sober, or dry drunk person would show. A person that broken and needy will say anything to keep you as their enabler. It's way less scary than changing to them.

I think the biggest curative factor for me in AA was that through it all, I developed some humility to be able to hear (really HEAR) "You need to grow up!" and that I felt it internally, WANTED to grow up, then did things that forced me to grow the hell up.

I don't classify myself as better than your qualfiers and I still have to work my program hard too...but I really don't hear this coming from any of your qualifiers with exception to one or two (not that we should focus so much on the qualifiers but I'm about to make a point)...There is much work to be done in recovery and this post is great, but it's also one that basically states "Alcoholics still drinking or with very poor recovery are manipulative!!!" That is a nobrainer. Of course they are. (And I'm not picking on you NLG)

I do think in alanon, the focus is better on how you deal with being guilted, manipulated, how you take ownership of your choices, and how you can see this whole process and disease as so unfortunate, but yet still keep walking towards the light of healing.

So....they are going to drink, lie, sneak, cheat, play the hostage game, the blame game, manipulate, make promises they don't keep, have pity parties, play victim AND use the "I have a DISEASE" to guilt you. What are you going to do? What do you do in response to this alcoholic behavior now? Why did it actually work on you for so long? What has changed? How is your HP and the program enlightening you? From what I know about NLG, she is putting much faith in her HP and working a program to be able to move forward and take good care of herself and her kids. Pretty inspiring recovery actually. When you look back and try and make sense out of ongoing insanity of untreated alcoholism....it will make you angry and drag you down.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I know that I cannot see into the heart or the mind of another person. All I know now is that it is important for me to keep my focus on myself and live and let live. Otherwise, I get caught up in a downward spiral of judgment, chaos and a feeling of being emotionally drunk or hung over. I don't like that sensation or experience and have gotten better at avoiding it. I am better able to maintain an inner state of peace and calm by changing what I can and leaving the other to their own pursuits or lack thereof. Being the wife and mother of two As has been a challenging and mind boggling journey and fortunately my HP and Al-Anon have helped me get and stay clear on my own sanity and health that is and will be a lifelong pursuit. I knew my x was sick. It didn't matter to me after awhile. I separated and divorced myself from him anyway.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Wednesday 16th of July 2014 06:02:53 PM

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree Newlife Girl, I've made that mistake but came to the conclusion that I would be just as irritated if someone I loved did not take care of themselves if diagnosed with cancer (for instance) and that thinking sort of changed the way I felt about the disease tag. I remember once getting a text from AH saying 'I'm not really this monster.' I thought about it for a while and then thought 'well if not you, then who?' I think that when one accepts responsibility for ones actions one is more empowered to change them. This applies to me as well as AH. When I shout back, or when I'm quivering with rage, that is me doing it - which means that I have the power to change that behaviour. Its not as easy as it sounds, but it is possible. I would love to say 'AH drove me mad,' but hand on heart I did most of that to myself by trying to change things that were outside of my control.

Pinkchip, that is such a helpful and enlightening post. Perhaps I haven't been looking in the right places but I think that it is very rare to see codependency mentioned in respect of the alcoholic. It is certainly something that I've thought about in recent months and I've felt the impact of. As always, it helps to see/hear these things voiced by another person. I like your questions at the end as well. Thank you so much.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks everyone PC yes I should have said "alcoholics who are not in recovery behave this way". My AH insists he doesn't need AA to stay sober. PC do you really think an A can be sober not just a dry drunk without AA?? I personally don't think they can. He says alcohol is a poison so he just won't drink it. Simple as that. Then he will keep busy running around like a chicken with his head cut off from project to project and not trying to get a job. It's maddening. But I am working on my 4th step and looking at my part in the madness. How I kept waiting and waiting for him to stop drinking and it never happened. He has insomnia which affects my daughter when he cares for her, which isn't often. But he says now that he can't use alcohol to fall asleep he just falls asleep naturally which sometimes ends up being 7:30am!!! He doesn't try anything other than medication to sleep. Just another reminder why I left. He worked graveyard shift for a very long time and I think it's engrained in his head. I can't live like that.
So I am focusing on how much I really do like my new apartment. My kids are happier. Today I am happy.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree milk wood. My dad was sick for many many years with diabetes and didn't follow the diet correctly. It made me mad. But he didn't treat me like crap when he didn't take care of himself. It's just different. I admit I have some resentments towards my dad I need to examine. People will do what they do no matter what.

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

Thats true Newlife, there is the rudeness factor for sure

As for people doing what they do no matter what - well if only they'd listened to us!!!

I'm glad you are liking your new apartment and that you and your children are doing well. I really like reading the 12 steps on your avatar btw.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I think the rate of healing is much slower if they are just dry and the likelihood of having irrational thought processes and emotional immaturity lingering on is much greater with no program of recovery. I went for 4 months one time before going to AA...not drinking. I couldn't stand myself and I was miserable. I didn't know how to cope with life so I drank again. Going on the wagon is not that challenging....becoming truly sober is. His definition of sober = dry (at best). Only the most glaring of problems go away from simply stopping drinking. Occasionally, not drinking alone may force a person to slowly develop coping skills and maturity because of exposure to coping with life without the drinking behavior but, like I said, it takes longer than if you learn those lessons through study, the ESH of others, and working on the insides more diligently. I had sleep problems too at first. It was because I was used to drinking til I passed out. I went to meetings, work, etc...until sleep patterns settled back down. It's going to take time, but it took a little less time for me because I had a job and structure in my life and eventually my body adjusted.

Who knows why your A wont get a job. Probably knows he can't handle work stress and stay sober....I don't know. Soon it will be less of your problem, even though still somewhat as he owes child support for your daughter.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I hope he's not trying to stay unemployed til divorce. I could see that happening because he might want to appear to have as low an income as possible so that he will pay minimum child support and get a bigger split upon divorce.

blessed · Senior Member

I totally understand your post. This has been a struggle of mine for a long time. To me, it was /is a choice. But, while in AlAnon I have read, listened, and researched alcoholism from many different sources both secular and Christian, and AFTER the addiction is in place, it is either mental disorder or diseaase depending on what article you read. Of course in the beginning they chose to drink, then depending on their DNA, allergies, etc. they got hooked, or it took a while to get thre. Both disease and mental illness are listed in the AMA (American Medical Assoc.). From a pure intellect stand I accept it as such and still working on the person that is the addict. My AH is one of the biggest aholes I have ever known, and just pure mean, manipulative, nasty and a lot of other words I won't put into print, the past few years, at home. In public he is Mr. Likable so people believe him when he says I am the bitch and he has lost hope and is so miserable, and the coddle him and pray for our marriage. It used to be just nauseating, but I don't even care anymore. I know the truth. My son knows the truth and since we are the only people that live here, we are the only one that sees the "disease" in action. I have problems with a person that can act "normal" in public but a complete a-hole at home. Don't tell me they don't know. He knows. He wants me gone so he doesn't have to face his addiction. No one else has ever bothered him about it. I don't bother him now. But he hates me with a pasion.

So, even though I say I accept it as a disease, am still trying to figure it all out. But, I have detached, and only living one day at a time, and not the least bit concerned with whatever it is he is doing, or not doing. I live my life, and he lives his. I manage the house and work. He works and nothing else. Very wonderful union. HA! Even though I am not making any huge decisions beyond today, I do know that if things do not change for the better, pretty soon, this marriage will not be until death due us part. I am not going to sit and watch someone commit a slow suicide. And God knows what is going on and that gives me peace as he can fool all the people in the world but you don't fool God.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

PC I have thought about him getting child support from me if he doesn't have a job. But I also found out we can count what he is taking out of retirement as income! It's just a mess. But I am staying focused on what needs to be done. My AH used to drink and pass out to go to sleep too.

Milk wood i hear you. The disease concept is a bit confusing to me. It sounds like you are doing a good job using the tools of the program.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

And glad you like the avatar. I stood it from someone here. I hope that's ok! :) I love it!!

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

It is a disease, and a symptom of this disease is they cannot just choose to quit. That is another symptom of the disease.

Also no, abstinence has zero to do with a cure for addiction. Using a drug as they do, is only another symptom of the disease. There are still several symptoms that plague the addict. To just stop using the drug, is called white knuckling, only stopped using, stark raving sober. Can actually make the disease worse.

And no they are not separate from their disease. It's not like the symptoms of diabetes or cancer.

An A is born an A. A non A is born a non A. Their dna is different. As soon as their body is introduced a drug, even if they are thirteen and are given pain pills, it wakes up the process inside them to be a full fledged A. Some people have more markers in their dna that predisposes them to be sicker. Some have less. Depends on their genetics passed down by previous generations.Many people barely have a chance at any sobriety. Some can have years. It is not cureable.

Cancer is totally different, it can be hereditary, a virus, pollution of things that cause cells to go nuts.

Just becuz it is a disease does not mean we have to stay with them. It's no flaw if it is just too much to live with them, most cannot.

Marriages are almost impossible to be what we hope for in a marriage. To stay with an A takes lots of changing how our minds believed what marriage is.

For me it became more of a deep friendship and compassion for a man I loved since he was a boy. But since he had a brain surgery, he was no longer the same person, plus the wet brain made him into a human who was and is a monster.

Its ok to think how you do. We all do until the truths really sink in. Its hard to face them. Its like we think smoking is bad. but people keep doing it. then they get cancer or see others who do, then they believe it and stop.

I believe my AH is a alcoholic with all the hard truths.

This is my experience, and how i keep my serenity when it comes to A's. I feel deeply compassionate for them, but I won't be around them when they are thick in their disease.

I have shared I love A's. They have this charm, passion, fun thing about them when they are not using. You hear all the time I love him when he is not drinking. They are still an A then..

hugs

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Newlifegirl,

I agree that there can be a perception of guilt to stay with an A by comparing it with other diseases. When I was new to Alanon, this was one of the many concepts I struggled with.

Thanks to Alanon, it has settled for me that it is a disease and has manifested as something causing me harm. He does have a disease but I don't have to chose to also suffer from it. Working the concept of it being a disease along with the 12 steps, I can now agree with everyone who has told me that guilt is not part of the program.

blessed · Senior Member

Mattie, I love your post. Especially, the disease of alcoholism swallowed up the person we knew. I think I said it a little different. :)

I have tried to compare it to other diseases, specifially one I work with daily. I work with overweight people from 20# to 200# overweight. Many are determined, disciplined and do well. But, I do see those that have nothing but excuses. They spend a lot of $ but do not work the program, or do they seem to care they have very serious health. Some are sent by other doctors because they have developed many other diseases and are told, "lose the weight or die." Even with that some are just not able or willing. It is really sad as some are quire young 20-30s. They are addicted to food. Sugar is highly addictive and some of the fake sugar is super addictive and it is why it is in our processed foods, so you will buy and eat moer. Seem criminal to me. But, with that it helps me to see alcoholism is the same light, except it is affecting other parts of the body (brain). But, is is something that takes them over. So, I have come a long way from, "just stop drinking" to really trying to accept that some people cannot do that easily, if at all. I think I am married to one that I think will never stop as he has too many enablers (family, employer).

I do not feel obligated to stay because he has a disease. If I could commit him, I would just like others might have to be hospitalized for treatment for various diseases. I do feel obligated to stay because of my faith; but also am realistic in the fact that this is toxic and if it gets too unhealthy for me, I will leave. Someone else said, "I am human, I am not God." I concur.

Newlife girl · ~*Service Worker*~

Blessed, it is my belief that God does not want people to live with abuse of any kind.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.