I understand, el cee. I don't think everyone can keep their faith background out of every discussion we have and I also agree that references to what the Bible teaches when this isn't a Christian program can be unsettling to some and a reason to debate its meaning for others. On the other hand, our program is also one that can be seen as subjective and open to interpretation. The answer to this to me lies in motivations of the speaker. If the speaker's motivations are to better understand where they've been, where they are and where they are going personally and want feedback, then I'm okay with it on our board. If the speaker's motivations are to evangelize others or to "save others," then I, too, have a problem with it. For me, its one of those take what you like and leave the rest kinds of things - just like what is heard in program speak.

I, too, will take issue if one is attempting to sway towards any affiliation.  I really invite references from denominations that have helped form an individuals beliefs, as it helps me to understand their foundation or frame of reference.  Bringing that out in the open helps maybe to validate the similarities of the sacred texts and the 12 steps.  If one is so entrenched in the dogma or the interpretations of "scholars", healing might be challenging, but, as a forum, we can provide a safe, open place for people to formulate their own truths in the religion of their choice?  I understand how destructive some religious practices/teachings have been and can be a frightening trigger for some. And frankly, I get really angered by what has occurred in the name of religion. However, if we can hold a safe, non judgmental place, and, we have proven that we can, for people to delve into those scary limiting areas, how awesome that can be.  Thank you el-cee for bringing this out in the open for discussion.  You seem to be very good at bringing to light some controversial topics.

And I'm am taking you seriously in your top hats and in your bow ties, too. Grin.  All smiling aside, I do think that all who have responded have valid points on this matter as it relates to this type of discussion on MIP.  I know in meetings there have been folks who do discuss what their beliefs are and what the Bible tells them about certain things. Even that can be a bone of contention based on different translations.  Generally, they do one of two things - they leave the group or they drop the topic after they are more comfortable in our groups.  I think our meetings are a little more strict about it than MIP might be although unlike Mimi's group, our chairs usually don't interrupt the speaker or refocus them.  I guess it just depends on the groups and what decisions have been made by the group when these kinds of issues arise? 

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 6th of July 2014 06:30:39 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 6th of July 2014 06:32:34 PM

Thank you, I dont want to be controversial, i am trying to take what I like. Its just that sometimes newcomers come here and talk about the hell they are living in and they cant leave because the bible or their church told them or they have said sacred marriage vows and it goes against god, so religion is helping them stay locked into the denial. The higher power that alanon encourages us to have faith in wants us to have a good life with or without the alcoholic. Of course newcomers are new, they dont know ours is not a religious program, its easy then to take what you like. I also think when a person mentions their religion within their share in a natural way of course thats easy to see and not even give it a second thought and again take what you like. Its religious stuff in reply to people, specific mention of christianity and the bible can take shares in another direction and they are not inclusive. When religion dominates then thats it for some people they are locked out of that post.

Im sorry, I realise I may be coming off as starting trouble or bejng judgemental and I am aware of my own defects about perfection and control, I dont want to offend anyone.

I dont find anything in the cal offensive either, ive seen mother theresa, gandhi, dahli lama in there, I love it all but its healing type of quotes rather than rules, its gentle and suggested.

It's cool to a degree. If you have to reference Christianity rather than your spirituality in personal terms in every share/post, then you probably need a different program because prefacing "As a Christian..." in every thread is not good in that you are already putting your religion ahead of the program which is the focus and basically saying "For everyone else without my religious background, tune out because I can't think of a way to share that is inclusive of all people." It would be like if I said I was gay every post, eventually, I'd expect to be told to shut up about it and that would be appropriate. I don't think NA or AA should be discussed much either but since the steps are the same pretty much and some texts overlap, it would be silly to take too much issue with that.

Well when suggestions and solutions are more religion than alanon, I dont really know what to say to be honest. I dont know the bible very well. If someone tells me it says something then I would believe them but I imagine it to be written with the best motives at some point in history, a good guide for living, but I dont really know it, I cant live through the bible or talk about it really, im not educated in religion when I think about it. I only know my higher power through alanon. I never got it as a child at church, Sunday school, brownies. I cant use tools shared from the bible.

I get that, el cee. You are comfortable with your own experience of a HP that you gained through the Al-Anon program.

My experience of an HP came before Al-Anon. Sometimes, I can utilize what I know about Christianity and the Bible with others who also come out of that faith tradition who are in Al-Anon and still stay within Al-Anon's program. In some ways to me, its like PC explaining what an active A is thinking or doing or what motivates them to us. If I know something that might be helpful in the long run to someone in the Al-anon program by sharing what my own experience with my tradition and perceptions were and what they are now, then I will do that. Not everyone will get what I'm saying, but I'm saying it for the benefit of one person and not the entire group. I don't think that choice is outside the bounds of our program? It is still sharing my experience, strength and hope - what happened, what is true for me now. If I know someone has the same background I do, then if what I say might be an encouragement, a comfort or a support for them, I still believe I am within the program's principles and guides. I never lead with what I know or understand about the faith tradition that is mine, but I still will utilize it if it might be helpful to a newcomer or an oldtimer who also has experience with the same faith tradition.

Good Work LC Nice example of Talking things over and reason things out. Glad you are here

It's cool elcee. I balked at religious people much more a few years back....Now I try to be more like " Cool. You love your HP too. We are not so different." If you would have told me I would get married in a Christian church 6 years ago...I would have told you that you were crazy. Yet...that is exactly what I just did.

I agree grateful, keeping things quiet and stifled would not be a good thing at all. I can get my knickers in a twist about lots of things, I suppose its still part of the dis-ease that im recovering from. Thanks for the unconditional love and acceptance, its a good example for me.x

Pc, I like that, its about looking for the similarities rather than the differences, thats tolerance. Im working on it.x

Elcee I was wondering about this issue regarding a meeting I attend. For the closing, they recite the Lord's Prayer! I was surprised...to me that is very religious. I consider myself a liberal Christian...but this disturbs me. How can this be ok at al anon??

 

 

((((El-Cee))))  Staying new and committed to your own recovery is what progress is about for me.  Courage to honestly bring the concern to the fellowship is the necessary courage.  Learning how to reach out and ask "Can you please help me"? was proof to me that I needed and wanted change...new perceptions and practices and outcomes.

I was and still am so encouraged by the suggestions of "if you keep and open mind...you will find help" and that was the first promise that came true for me early on in the program.  My first Al-Anon meeting was held in elementary classrooms of a Church facility and for many reasons; such as I was born and raised into a religion and had to take it because it was forced on me as a part of ethnic family, my first addict was a religious fanatic and they agreed that they broke up many families not just mine, and because I was also raised in a missionary atmosphere here in Hawaii and much more, my first urge was to turn around and not enter the rooms.  I was done then with organized religion and still with an open mind the use to say in Al-Anon "We are not a religion...but...if you work the steps religiously..."  Okay I got the meaning of that and it didn't suggest joining a church...it was about committed, consistent practice.   Over time I have come to see and understand that the fellowship is about individuals and we come with baggage and faults.  We press the baggage and faults initially on our alcoholics and addicts and mine only drank and used more.  We don't give up the behavior/habit/addiction until "we come to understand" that it is a problem for and with us...we don't find help doing that stuff while we need help so badly.  Some quit and go elsewhere and that is a choice while others stop using it.   We have slogans and all kinds of tools to let the gaffs regarding religion pass.  QTIP or Quit Taking It Personal is one of them...I like that one well because when I start ragging on the condition I know I've turned myself over to the problem and not a solution.  Another slogan is "this too will pass" which for me it always has.  "They too have their story" and I can let them be what and who ever they are without reacting.  Soooo we have tools and Al-Anon is just filled door to door with dysfunctional people affected by someone else's drinking who are as powerless as I am and at times forgetting that.

It cannot and will not hold on to you unless you allow it...don't allow it...take off the Velcro (that is one of my personal ones...you can have it also).   ((((hugs))))

Thanks for helping me become more aware of my own shortcomings. I can see that it is all tied in with this drive for perfection, I want the program to be perfect and the people to practice it perfectly, lol, im ready to have this removed right now, it keeps coming back, I obviously dont understand it enough, its got more to teach me about me. Its funny, when an idea takes hold it grows until I say it and then like magic Its in its proper place and I dont feel the same way.

I have to work out what fears make me seek perfection and focus on the imperfections, also where does the logic go and why do these ideas grow until I say them? I suppose it will come to me when its supposed to.x

I thought about these posts last night...BTW "thought provoking" fits better than "controversial"...see I am still all warriored up when it comes to fundamental evangelicalism.  I thought about it, as I have worked through a lot of stuff and am still watching and learning from my responses.  There was a point several years ago when I asked myself "why do these people keep showing up in my space"?  Some were people I deeply loved who morphed in front of my eyeballs...to me it looked like alien invasions.  What I got to see in me, as a result of my inquiry to God,was arrogance, judgment, jealousy and experiences of alienation, misfitedness (I make up words sometimes), etc.  My answer to my question came in a whisper as an invite...come closer and take a look.  What happened was I was introduced to the works of individuals who lived the teachings of the sacred texts (this included the Bible), embraced the many religious denominations and called out evangelicals.  It was the courage to call out the fundamental evangelical Christians that hooked me (hey, whatever works, right?  God knew me)  It was al anon that created the first opening for me to take another look at the wisdom contained within the sacred texts and see the similarities between them all AND al anon.  I have had a relationship with my HP, who is God, as long as I can remember, that never went away, but my EXPERIENCE of that relationship changed through al anon.  I began to see God everywhere, even in those darn evangelicals (and I hope I am not offending anyone here).  I can now (usually) listen and ask for understanding of ways of being that I don't get and that has come from the beloved 12 steps, which, I believe, is a spiritual practice. 

I am hoping the was an appropriate share for this forum.  Thanks for letting me share.

Thank you, Betty.  I was a little uncertain about sharing this.

I have seen you become much softer in your expressing to others. I also love how you bring up great shares. We all need to say things out  loud sometimes to be able to put it into where it belongs for us. Plus I love feedback and you must too.

Perfection actually means nothing to me. Don't think I know what it is. As there are so many ways to look at things. Used to be wife in apron with dinner ready, husband comes home from work, smokes a cigarette watching tv with the kids in the room.ack!!!

People are going to be who they are and what they are. Many are working hard to change things they want to about themselves.

I agree if something feels wrong we must bring it up. Even if it is me who went too far I want to know. I won't say where i learned it. lol but in my beliefs....we often are corrected, as again we fall off the path, this world is hard. I am glad someone cares enough about me to say hey hey hey, what are you doing??? lol Shakes my noggin so the marbles get back in place.

Ok would you be able to find something fun to do? Or do something to make ya feel good? Plant some flowers or start some seeds? Please forgive me, my memory really is not great like it used to be. Do you have a dog? I just know for me nothing makes me feel better these days than playing with, grooming or having them close. I just got two chi's from jail and they are soooo great. they even fit in my bed with all of us. (c:

hugs elcee!