Opinions (not sure this is a great subject title, ha! but its gotta have a title eh?0 - Al-Anon Family Group

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Opinions (not sure this is a great subject title, ha! but its gotta have a title eh?0

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I really connected to this post. Probably because I use to be that person. I thought my opinion was superior. It was not. It was just mine. I am not sure if it stemmed from low self-esteem or just emotional immaturity. I like when I allow others their opinion, their feelings, their thoughts without trying to convince them to change them. It feels good. I have been observing and the best communicators I see simply listen and then summarize it. Thanks for the reminder and the post. I am a work in progress. Have a great day!!!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Thats a good topic for me. I can at times get sucked into arguments or debates and when I do, I often wonder if im acting from my own sickness. I can feel a compulsive need to be heard or be right. I think it could be due to the way my ex would disregard my views or opinions and he would argue black was white. I had to shout to be heard and even then he didnt listen to me. He would also bring up something I said from 10 years ago to prove me wrong. So, I do know that I can enter into arguments through fear, fear of being misunderstood or god forbid, wrong. Most of my defects come from fear. Im not sure about ego, I know that im a perfectionist which is a curse because I can be a harsh critic of myself and other, is that ego? Thought provoking topic.x

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I think I thought I knew what others needed. I realized my HP just didn't give me the gift of "mind reading". Just my experience.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

El-cee is it okay if I share what my sponsor taught me about ego?

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Go for it.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I like a good debate however at the same time if I see it being a drama issue then I stay out of it .. for me I have enough drama in my life I don't need to deal with other people's stuff as well. I may or may not reply based upon time and what is going on in the moment. There are just people who like to troll sites to stir up drama and watch it unfold .. I call that a hit and a run. I like to read on here the long timers of the group when they post things that are food for thought .. new comers .. I use more discernment when it comes to posts that are just being used to bait. This is something I practice in real life .. take what you like .. as well as how important is it.

On a side note .. the Westborrow church came to town recently and there was a BIG hubbub before they got here. I see these folks as very hurt people (there is no question in my mind their actions are not my definition of what Christ like behavior is or should be .. again that's an opinion of which I'm entitled to) .. as I think we all know .. hurt people .. hurt people. They were protesting outside of a catholic church as well as moving on to others. I love what one of our Catholic fathers shared .. I'm not Catholic however I have much respect for the fact he made a point of stating .. they have a right to state their opinion .. agree to disagree and realize this is their right protected under the 1st amendment. I would encourage everyone to ignore them and just let them do what they are going to do .. if you ignore them they will go away and because no one fed the story .. they will leave town and hopefully just not come back because it didn't get them in the news .. it didn't get them what they were looking for in terms of attention. We can pray for them and hope they can find some peace and a different more positive way to express themselves.

It also reminds me of the Married with Children story .. that show was awful as far as I am concerned .. well .. it would have actually been cancelled except a woman who was just over top offended (and as far as I'm concerned rightfully so) made such a big deal .. it got everyone's attention and people made a point of watching the show. Well guess what .. it went on for many seasons and each season the whole cast crew producers and so on sent this woman a fruit basket with a thank you card attached .. if not for her .. the show would have been cancelled.

I think it goes to show the more attention regardless of if it's positive or negative someone or something receives the more they keep coming back to flame the fires. Regardless of why people do what they do .. the reality is .. it doesn't matter why .. it only matters how I choose to react to what is going on around me and yes, there are times to take a stand .. someone trolling a site .. it's just not that important to me and the conversation out of it can be positive .. what is the cost?

That's just me and that's just my two cents.

Hugs S :)

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

She taught me that the "ego" is not necessarily a bad thing because it was their to protect when you are in danger. She said it is not helpful when it is trying to get you to buy into thoughts of "unworthiness" or the other extreme "superiority". She taught me to watch the thought just prior. What had I just told myself? My inner voice?

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I had my panties in a bunch lately. I'm digging them out now lol. Sorry for the visuals lol.

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

I love a good debate between equals who are respectful of each other's point of view.
Pinkchip - is that the same as saying having ones knickers in a twist? I'm trying really hard to resist the visuals but it's not working!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Perspectives and opinions are different things to me. Perspectives have to do with experience and how one views the same candle of truth and sees a need to express one's view for their own sake. Perspectives allow for discussion that can result in a new experience and a new view of that same candle by persons wanting to see an issue from different angles in order to grow or to learn or to experience something new. For me, an example would be as an abused woman, I learned that some physically abusive men can be charming and also deceptive. Some can tend to act as an authority that cannot be questioned or challenged and must always be heard and agreed with no matter how crazy what they say is or sounds. If I listen to another woman's perspective of what she has learned in relationship to being abused by a man, she might have had a different experience and I can add to my perspective by listening and incorporating what she has learned into my own view of the truth as it relates to people who are physically abusive and what others experience in relationship to being abused.

Opinions to me are ideas/beliefs about certain topics or issues that aren't always based on knowledge or experience but might have been passed on or taught ie women should always remain silent in churches or children who act out must always be severely punished. If a person's opinion is a cherished belief - then any challenge to it can but not always lead to argument, criticism, isolation, shaming, correction by others who hold a different opinion or cherished belief.

I can't argue with a person's perspective because it is their experience. I can only add my own perspective on the same issue.

I can argue with an opinion if I choose because my opinion is as cherished and as valid as the other's since neither's opinion is an absolute. It's merely a statement of a belief.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 7th of June 2014 03:00:48 PM

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I am going to listen to me and watch my reactions when I am engaged in conversations with perspectives and/or opinions. I think I listen to perspectives and want to argue or ignore with opinions....not always, though, it depends on my relationship with the person. If I am with someone that is continually expressing opinions, I limit my time with them. And just because I want to argue, does not mean that I do...this is the gift of learning not to react. And so sometimes I react smile I had an awareness recently that when I want to argue, often I am not feeling heard, then I take my inventory and look at HALT to determine where I am off. A thought provoking post!

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful that was amazing. I might just print that and put it on my fridge.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

It took me a really long time to realize it was abuse because of the charm. Charm - Escalate - Explosion - Apology. It just kept repeating though. I had one male friend that would say to me I don't buy it. I thought he was being judgmental at the time. I see now his "red flags" were working.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh well live and learn. I am just happy I am here today.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

And truth, that happiness is huge smile

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I must remind myself that sharing my opinion is a necessary part of my recovery and that it does not matter if others agree or accept my thoughts as long as had the courage to speak my words, I will recover. I also love the fact that we can each express our opinions on a topic and that this is a fellowship of equals .

After a few years in alanon I realized that it Is all opinions and I am entitled to mine. I do not have to justify it with wise quotes from famous people or support my cause with back up from books I have the right to go within , find the still small voice within and speak from the wisdom I find.

Here and at alanon meetings all I need to remember is to abide by the principles of the program and examine my motives for sharing.

Good topic .

--

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Opinions are inevitable. We have a challenge determining what are "outside opinions" in 12 step programs. Domestic violence is a horrible thing, but largely an outside issue to alanon. Shelters, counselors and police, and support groups specified for that would be the best places to get and give help in that area. I obviously have strong opinions on gay rights, have been bullied, discriminated against, and all sorts of things, but will bring it up as it applies to alanon, past relationships with alcoholics and moving forward. I used to be real quick to call people "bigots" for whatever reason they mistreated me and such but am so grateful I am beyond that and am general safe and welcome here so it's generally an outside issue.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

As long as we are on the topic though...seems ironic I have been teaching anger management and nonviolence to teens/juvenile offenders for years... I think that is also why the discussion about domestic abuse as though it is just part of alcoholism is so personally offensive to me. My ex-A threatened me with a hammer once and threw something at my head that made my neck snap back. He had a mean side when he drank sometimes. I know he treated me like crap but I was no prize. All I generally did was cry and act like a sloppy irresponsible child when drunk. He told me things like my mother was a b###h regularly. Had me move away from family and said i would not make it on my own. And of course the doozy of raging at me drunk then threatening to kill himself, then ODing on pills and me having him hauled off and almost tazed by police as he cursed me out and gave me the finger on the gurney as they strapped him down. At the end I was screaming back at him...A lot. It really went downhill from there. It has been challenging to figure out the line between "I didn't deserve that at all" versus "I had a part in that" versus "I let that happen to me" as all 3 apply sorta. Currently, I sometimes struggle with reconciling that whole incredibly messed up period of my life. Seems unreal. It has been over a long time...but it still happened.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Pink, I don't care how sloppy drunk you were I don't think you deserved to be chased with a hammer, called names or threatened. I can agree that you may have not made a good decision to be there with that particular person. I will never say you deserved that.
Crying is not a reason to condone violent. If I was there I would have had my mamma bear come out.

I made a poor decision not to call the police right away when he did to me what he did when I was pregnant. I just did not expect to walk into my home and he was in my house. I did not know he was there. I still don't know how he got in. That was why I felt complete helplessness plus not knowing how to protect my baby that was in my stomach.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Not that you need my momma bear lol

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Aright... I think it is healthy to kick back and talk about stuff. In the alcoholic family this never, or seldom happens.

For me the new poster issue came, and went. The moderators made a ruling, and I left it at that.

For me it was not about the quality, or otherwise, of the posting. it was about the person's right to be here, and the right to post a comment and to contribute.

I started a thread and raised it as a conscience issue. I was very careful not to blur the edges with too much further posting. And I read and listened to all the perspectives.

I left it up to the poster to take anything further- if he so wished.

I had to examine my own conscience- consider whether I was just pushing my own opinion. And especially being an an adult child of an alcoholic whether I was just being a drama queen.

I know that people would rather have peace at any price. That was something that happened in my family. Ideas, opinions, even memories were swept under the carpet. I believe that we weren't allowed to have memories, just in case we remembered the wrong things.

I don't really believe in quoting chapter and verse of the traditions. A lot of the time more than one tradition works together with the others. But it is good to have experience, in real situations, of how they work in practise.

it is good to know that opinions are allowed, and differences are respected.

aww David.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

David, you make good points. Sometimes it is hard to figure out in a group of 12 steppers what is wrong when there are problems. I have seen so many circular arguments (usually in group conscience meetings) and people getting triggered by various conflicts and I believe it is partly due to group dynamic problems but also because we all have issues lol.

This particular thread has been useful for me in sorting out my own over-reaction to certain things though (not saying you over reacted to anything).

On the whole - the trend is for all of us to get something positive out of this interchange way more than anything negative. I think we do achieve that here and it's good.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The disease of addiction is so insane - I can't recall ever laying hands on my ex but there were some really really intense fights. There have been people on this board that actually admitted to slapping or hitting their qualifiers when so angry...(nobody currently regularly posting but it's happened). It's good they were able to discuss it and get feedback. The behavior is totally unacceptable. Unacceptable, but this is one hell of a disease that has people acting WAY out of character trying to go against those 3 C's (trying to cure, control, or defend against accusations of causing it). I don't speak for everyone but I think a lot of us probably reached the point in these relationships where it was like "If I don't leave now, someone is going to get hurt in some way." Drama is so high in relationships with alcoholics....it is true insanity.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I reached that point, PC, and the leave taking came when I recognized that what he was doing to me he may very well do to the children as they grew older. That was my big wake up call. Prior to that, I recognized within myself a desire for him (he was a truck driver for a local food supplier at the time) to be killed in a car crash. I knew I was in trouble then. I had never wished death for anybody until that day when I paid attention to my thoughts and recognized what I was saying to myself. Scared me even more than the many ways his disease tried to destroy me. I sought help for myself then with priests and a therapist. I knew I was in bad shape with those thoughts in my mind. I didn't nurture them, but I sure recognized them as dangerous.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 8th of June 2014 08:07:36 AM

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I have been thinking on this...expressing myself in writing gets me to see things in a different light. In general, I listen to people's opinions, but I noticed that I listen more intently to opinions expressed here or in 12 step meetings, perhaps because it is a recovery environment, and, I have a belief that most are seeking recovery or we would not be here or in a meeting.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Yep. I can identify. In the last 6 months of the relationship, my ex-A had these attacks of passing out due to his smoking and drinking and he would get to coughing and then turn red, choke out and hit the floor like a 350 pound ton of bricks. It was horrid and I can remember being so scared and also thinking at times...I wish he would just die. Last night I was actually one of the places and told a friend "This is where my ex passed out and fractured his face on the edge of the bar"...who says that in normal conversation?? Me I guess. In one of our last fights, I had moved out and couldn't get into my own condo yet because the renter (a friend of my ex refused to get out and pay the rent he owed also). My ex communicated with the renter and told him many of the things I said about him and the renter threatened to sue me for slander. My reaction was to go over to our house that I'd left for over 2 weeks and I went ballistic. I didn't hit him but I screamed and ranted so loud and hard that he barricaded himself in the bedroom and called my parents to say I was going crazy. He also called the renter and got him to drop that bullcrap so I could move into my own condo that I owned (due to me supporting him getting a realtors license, and that being the only sale he could make, basically conning me and my parents and then turning it on me and them.... which also wound up with me having a triple upside down mortgage at the time in addition to this place we were renting together). So all of that...he was screaming "You don't live here any more!!! Leave!" I was beating on the door cursing and saying "I do now (bleep bleep inserted) and you better move because I pay this (bleep) and always have so (bleep bleep)! I own all this (bleep)!!" Had that door not been locked with him behind it at the time....Yeah. It would have been ugly. That is perhaps the most angry I have ever been in my whole life. That is how toxic a relationship can get that is poisoned by alcohol. LITERALLY. I share this all just to illustrate it because I am so far removed from it now.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

PS - I have to apologize for saying domestic violence is an outside issue...It's not cuz obviously look what I'm sharing about now. Ironically the title of this thread (Opinions) is right on target because me and my strong opinions often block me from seeing my own issues.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I am happy you got to tell your story and I am sorry that came across so intense. However, I just connected back to a feeling I have not had in four years. This time however I will use it to go towards the light. I feel like I could clean the whole house today.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

smile Sharing the stories of our lives openly, honestly and humanly - healing to me and safe when shared in the company of others making progress and yet never reaching perfection. Thanks, all. I like what I see here.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

It is funny because that is how I use to deal with anger. I use to clean the house. I may have been a little OCD. Lol
I actually just think it was learnt behavior when my mom was upset she cleaned.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I clean, too. It is my way of doing something with all of the pent up anger, although I noticed my house isn't as clean...maybe I don't get as mad. biggrin

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Anger: I stew and ruminate...I get lost in it. I think I've displayed that here a few times. LOL.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Haha....that is okay too

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Sorry Pink that was for Paula. I don't know how you guys copy posts. Can someone teach me?

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh, finally I understand why my house has steadily become messier and messier over the past year! It's a side-effect of al-anon!! lol.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey Mark, I once threw a glass at my ex's head, he ducked and it shattered on the door, my favorite glass too. I look back on being caught up in that insanity and just shake my head - a peaceful person, when pushed continually into the corner by a violent person will eventually start to fight back, be dragged down to his level. Looking back strengthens my resolve to never go "there" again! I don't like myself angry.

I love all the good response to this thread, a question though, why do you suppose online websites that allow comments so often degrade quickly into name calling and vicious words and sentiments? I read comments sometimes just because it fascinates me how one persons words will spark another to react in an extremely negative way; but when I read the original comment, I see nothing in it that should have "hurt" anyone - is it our triggers that "read" a post in a certain frame of mind so that we perceive a slight that isn't truly there, or meant that way? I understand how something I write or read could be misunderstood and have received and sent pm's that allow for clarity to the parties involved.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

And I think domestic violence IS an outside issue - not all abusers are alcoholics and not all alcoholics are abusers.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I still have a pot that I threw once to the ground about 30 some years ago when I was trying to get my husbands attention. It got his attention and also a few looks that said "you are insane". I was.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

LMH, sometimes I get triggered, read the post another day and wonder how the heck did I read into what I read?

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.