On Relationships - Al-Anon Family Group

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: On Relationships

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

A wise response and action, Debilyn.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Jerry I would invite you to share your experience on the message board, not post your papers. If you want to share those, then possibly offer to pm them to those who would like to read them.

This is a "message board" a place we can share how we feel inside, or share a question we need some feedback on. Or we share different experiences looking for people who relate.

I could post tons of papers from my 5 years of college studies on addiction, anatomy and how drugs affect it, genetics and addiction etc. How the family may respond to an addict etc. But this is not the place to do that. Instead I share my own experiences.

Plus not ever situation is the same. Not every family is the same. So what you post for me sounds cold like math. People are full of emotions, strengths and weaknesses, pain and sorrow. I did not like the YOU MUST stuff, or you will... sorry not for me.

Each person is unique, A's too. It's not as cut and dried as your posts say.

Again I invite you to share from your heart, your experience, I feel, I hope, my experience is this.

sincerely, debilyn

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, Debilyn.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn wrote:
Since this is not his own words where did it come from? Is it copyrighted and does it say he has permission to post this? I have sent him a pm asking for this info. If I am not answered by tomorrow this post will be taken down for a copyright violation.

In his sharing Jerry said the words were his own...

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I thought I read the same thing.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

There is no evidence so far that Jerry has used any copyrighted material...

If it happens to be, then he should be given to option to delete them himself.

it is not good Alanon to censor anyone, based simply on suspicion.

Any member has the right of reply if there are any issues raised.

Otherwise we might as well be living in our alcoholic family... ?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

It reads to me like a textbook summary and not something anybody in Al-Anon would write. We share our stories. We don't share what he's written here. And even if we did, it is not for public use. I've read that kind of stuff in multiple books throughout the years. And there are things in it that totally contradict what we learn in Al-Anon. The non-addicted spouse isn't to "stress" the addict? It's the child's duty to love the parent? That's not Al-Anon. The non-addicted spouse is the one who needs to do what the addicted person can't do? None of that is Al-Anon. Generally, I pm people but in this case I don't believe what is being said here and I don't feel safe with this person because I think they have a hidden agenda. He's been asked by multiple people to share something about himself and he hasn't. I am open with what I am thinking and that isn't standard operating procedure in the alcoholic family in my experience.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 5th of June 2014 09:05:25 PM

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Just curious Grateful. What do you think the agenda is?

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn wrote:
Since this is not his own words where did it come from? Is it copyrighted and does it say he has permission to post this? I have sent him a pm asking for this info. If I am not answered by tomorrow this post will be taken down for a copyright violation.
John gave me specific instructions how to handle this type thing. If one puts it in their words, using I feel, or I have learned this etc. it personalizes it.
To share this as fact to me is not what our message board is for. We are real people sharing our deepest feelings, supporting each other.....(c:

Deb, I am so glad you and Betty are watching the ship....I knew you guys would address this......and yes, we are REAL people sharing REAL life with REAL support.........thank you

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
The non-addicted spouse isn't to "stress" the addict? It's the child's duty to love the parent? That's not Al-Anon. The non-addicted spouse is the one who needs to do what the addicted person can't do? None of that is Al-Anon. Generally, I pm people but in this case I don't believe what is being said here and I don't feel safe with this person because I think they have a hidden agenda.

so agree...."stress" the addict so we let them run rough shod w/out boundaries??? oh yea........"child's duty to love the parent"??? even if that parent is a monster like mine was??? I was really offended when i saw that but just kept saying to myself "don't take it personal....REAL alanon would not tell me this"...... NONE of it was alanon that I have seen......and I , after the stated above don't feel safe either......I totally agree with grateful.......Debilyn and Betty will handle it.......I am gonna detach and let HP and the mods deal with this..........

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

If Jerry had crossed into someone's thread with this information it might have been seen as cross-talk.

But he says he wrote this material himself- and it is his thread...

so any comments or criticism of him is cross-talk...

I know that cross-talk is not enforced here on MIP Alanon, for very good reasons- but it does come down to respect.

Whatever for ESH takes, it is still ESH... experience strength, and hope...

-David.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth: I sense a hidden agenda. I cannot guess at this person's motives and won't try to inventory them, so I can't answer your question. I can say I trust myself and I trust the red flags I feel in relationship to these essays by a person who has posted twice and only essays.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Nemesha I don't agree with all of it either. However, if it is his opinion of his experience, I think he has a right to his thoughts.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I am just not getting the feeling so I agree trust your own gut.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
Thank you, Debilyn.

I thank you too, debilyn....I am not comfortable with some of this "essay" stuff.....that part where the "child's duty is to love the parent"??? that offended me greately...and it is not alanon....never saw that anywhere..neither have i seen the "not stressing the addict".........not in any alanon literature or any 12 steps approved literature...... i just dont see this as e/s/h, i see it as a "you must" thingy.......I like what you said about us being real people with real emotions.....i want to see a personal story, a personal journey of poster, not this........just sayin

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

David: I understand what you are saying and I agree with what you are getting at. I also believe respect includes recognizing when something is amiss and saying so or doing what one needs to do to safeguard their well-being. If I go to a lion's cage, I respect the lion by not putting my arm in his cage.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 5th of June 2014 09:23:04 PM

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Interesting discussions, opinions....also interesting that we are discussing actively without Jerry. I believe there is an agenda aside from participating in this community and offering support from an al anon perspective. The discussion here is good but will put it to rest for the night.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Gosh I am just not getting that feeling. I am getting take what you like and leave the rest.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Me too. Sweet Dreams to all. You are all in my prayers.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
David: I understand what you are saying and I agree with what you are getting at. I also believe respect includes recognizing when something is amiss and saying so or doing what one needs to do to safeguard their well-being. If I go to a lion's cage, I respect the lion by not putting my arm in his cage.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Thursday 5th of June 2014 09:23:04 PM

me 2, david, but my gut is telling me something is wrong here.......i liek what grateful says about the lion's cage.......and for ONCE i am NOT sorry for standing up for my instincts and my e/s/h

Beatrice · Senior Member

While I agree with some of Jerry's post I don't agree with all of it. In a perfect world wouldn't it have been great if we adhered to all that
and the alcoholic would have fallen in place and exhibited model behavior.

While I do agree that everything stems from our attitudes and I think that's what all us Alanoners aspire too is good attitude and good behaviors on our
part, Jerry, progress not perfection is our motto.

While I don't see anything harmful in Jerry's post, we all can agree take what we like and leave the rest.

Remember there are many paths to follow on this journey to serenity, Alanon is great, but come one we can integrate the good attitude, Alanon speaks of it. We cannot be closed.

So, I will say Jerry, thank you for your input, while I think your philosophy is good, its not a perfect one ,as it diminish's the affect of someone else's drinking on another .

Their behavior can be appalling and it seems that you say, all l I have to do is smile and have the proper attitude and it will not affect me. That is not the reality for us.

Anyway, thank you for your share. I'm sure we can learn something from it.
Bettina

-- Edited by Beatrice on Thursday 5th of June 2014 11:34:06 PM

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I am actually going to share what step I think it is. Step 7.

Well I have always been very gifted at math and sciences. I was really left-brained. I actually prayed to my HP that I needed to remove this shortcoming and develop my right-brain and connect to feelings and communication skills.

It was shortly after this prayer, I met my sponsor. Just my ESH

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Debilyn, dont panic, we can handle this, its turned into a good discussion, why remove posts? That has got to be against the traditions too, removing posts because you feel uncomfortable about them. When posts disappear I feel like we are treated like children who have no right to read something.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I believe it was wise for Debilyn to ask questions for clarification...I have done a lot of speculation here and created a story or two biggrin .

I don't believe it would be a good move to remove the posting and the discussions around it, that would be unnecessary censorship. Censorship isn't all bad, though. Censorship doesn't have to be an either/or, there can be some necessary censorship (in cases of safety). In these kinds of posts, though, it is good to have lively discussions so we can flush out our own stuff and the forum's stuff.

Throughout this, I kept going to new to al anon people who are looking for guidance, and, I got concerned for those reading the "papers". I did agree with some of the info and I disagreed with some, but I can discern what fits for me and what does not. In my early days of recovery, the info would have thrown me into more chaos, but we cannot control what another says, which is why it is imperative to have these discussions. We get to present our commentaries, how the postings affected us, our concerns for the greater good and let HP take over. A new person can see the many faces of al anon and perhaps settle into the knowing that chaos presents itself everywhere and how are we going to be in it???? Big hugs to all

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

PP wrote:
I believe it was wise for Debilyn to ask questions for clarification...I have done a lot of speculation here and created a story or two.
I don't believe it would be a good move to remove the posting and the discussions around it, that would be unnecessary censorship. Censorship isn't all bad, though. Censorship doesn't have to be an either/or, there can be some necessary censorship (in cases of safety). In these kinds of posts, though, it is good to have lively discussions so we can flush out our own stuff and the forum's stuff.
Throughout this, I kept going to new to al anon people who are looking for guidance, and, I got concerned for those reading the "papers". I did agree with some of the info and I disagreed with some, but I can discern what fits for me and what does not. In my early days of recovery, the info would have thrown me into more chaos, but we cannot control what another says, which is why it is imperative to have these discussions. We get to present our commentaries, how the postings affected us, our concerns for the greater good and let HP take over. A new person can see the many faces of al anon and perhaps settle into the knowing that chaos presents itself everywhere and how are we going to be in it???? Big hugs to all

agree, Paula, I posted my take under David's tradition one post.....I handled myself ala alanon....case is done for me......my response from now on???? detachment to any further posts....and if something/someone is not a match for me re: trading ESH, then I have the option and right to ignore/walk away/stay in my own sandbox

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I, too, plan on detaching from any further posts that do not include genuine sharing. I believe I said what I needed to say and agree with Paula on the letting go and letting HP be at this point. Rose - being in the sandbox was in my thoughts, too!!!!! I'll bring us a snack, sister. What would you like?

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

grateful2be wrote:
I, too, plan on detaching from any further posts that do not include genuine sharing. I believe I said what I needed to say and agree with Paula on the letting go and letting HP be at this point. Rose - being in the sandbox was in my thoughts, too!!!!! I'll bring us a snack, sister. What would you like?

Oh how about some Tuna Salad sandwiches, whole wheat bread and some organic potato chips and most important??? bring YOU :) :)

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

My feeling is that he said nothing wrong....we can all go on the internet and find countless articles and self help groups that give us information on relationships and how to handle them. But here on MIP we use our ESH and whats in our hearts. To start using what others tell us what we should be doing ( short of quotes and Al-anon lit ) we are losing what MIP is all about.

Keep it simple....

-- Edited by Cathyinaz on Friday 6th of June 2014 02:06:16 PM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Although this is (to my latest information)...not an approved WSO Al-Anon Meeting internet site...and I wish it was; what comes to mind for me is that card we read before all of our local Al-Anon meetings "Al-Anon Spoken here...keep the focus on our program please". We also guide with "Only Al-Anon literature is allowed in an Al-Anon meeting" and then MIP isn't an approved Al-Anon site. Oh well...have to use the entire program and why I am in it all the time. Keep coming back. ((((hugs)))) smile

astallaslions · Veteran Member

I think these are some great ideas. From all the cross talk you "shouldn't, this doesn't apply the principals, you aren't following the rules, you aren't being personal enough" reactions. I have had a big problem in alanon of the control freak/perfectionism that many, myself included, struggle with while battling an uncontrollable disease, seeping out in the meetings and lashing out on fellow members. It's happened to me in regular meetings, but I see it ESPECIALLY on these boards. I like being able to vent and get some positive interaction with ppl going thru the same issues, and when someone says something a bit too cross-talky, I just scroll down, but as a newcomer that was a huge turnoff.

I just wanted to say welcome, and I appreciate your "non-approved" literature. I think a lot of those principals are in line with the spirit, and if you want to share about your life, I hope you do so on your time, and for the benefit of your own relief. Have a great night.

hopes314 · Senior Member

Thank you Jerry. It is what I needed to read today. To read what a normal relationship can be, I wish that I could achieve this except it would be a relationship by myself. It is good to read that I need to strive to have a better relationship with self.
I was listening to a program and my top relationship needs to be with my HP.
Thanks for sharing. I needed to be reminded of what a great relationship is between two people.
This is something today I yearn for because I do not have but not having a relationship with my spouse is not the worst than what can be..
I am going to enjoy my time in the present moment because I don't want to miss the joy from that minute.. life is too short to wish for what I don't have. I am going to enjoy what I have today.
Hopeful

John · ~*Service Worker*~

Okay, I'll throw my almighty opinion at this one. I honestly do not believe this post even belongs on the board. It is not someone sharing their OWN ES&H and starts with the word YOU, instead of I. If I wanted to read an article about relationships for whatever reason, I'd go to a site that publicizes them as their natch, and have experts in the field of relationship development and maintenance and read them. In this "article" the words "your", your's, and "you" are repetitiously used, and the words "I, Me, Myself", are not present at all. That being said, I can't see any personal experience, strength and hope being shared. Nor do I see the words alcohol, alcoholism, or alcoholic in this article, and that is major stuff to me because I come to Al-Anon as "Family and Friends" of alcoholics and want to learn how to live inside the framework of these relationships without drowning in the disease with the alcoholic I love and care about.

I want to hear what you have experienced. The up's and down's. The sad stuff and the stuff that gives you a "ha-ha" moment. I want to hear about how you recovered from some of the old ideas and behaviors related to trying to live a normal life within an alcoholic relationship. I want to learn and read about how you detached in a healthy way that allowed your alcoholic to keep their dignity while not interfering with or intervening on the consequences of their attitudes and actions. I want to learn how you turn your alcoholic over to the care of God, and stop trying to manipulate and control events and circumstances for them, as though that's our role in the relationship. I want to learn from your personal experience, the proper application of Al-Anon's 12 Steps and the benefits of utilizing them in our daily lives. I want to learn how to stop allowing myself to be isolated from family, from friends, from activities I would enjoy that the disease of alcoholism has robbed me of. I want to learn how to live my own life fully so that when I die, its not the alcoholics life that flashes before my eyes, because I lived their life instead of my own each day. I want to hear about how you captured that moment of goodness and joy with your alcoholic today, instead of let resentfulness and animosity that is from yesterday steal that moment from you today. When and how did you see that moment and how did you grab it? Or even share with me how your own alcoholic illness stole another moment from you because you couldn't or wouldn't let go of yesterday, and it was allowed to take today from you too. I want to hear your experience on how you encouraged the alcoholic who was making another promise, but protected your emotional center from the disappointment it could lead to, so your day isn't wrecked when that happens, should that be the case. I want to hear about how you learned how to live where your feet are planted today, instead of where they were yesterday or where you hoped or dreaded they'd be tomorrow. I need to hear about what you do one day at a time, to bring yourself into a better spiritual contact or connection with your Higher Power, so that you no longer feel alone on this journey. I want to hear about how you developed a healthy support network in Al-Anon and found a sponsor that could guide you on your journey of recovery.

I want you to speak to me as a person to a person, and I want to be heard as a person to a person.

That's what I am here for today. Tomorrow I might venture over to About.com and find an interesting article about relationships, read and enjoy it. But today, I need another Al-Anon speaking Al-Anon to me.

And... what I want as stated above, is what you can expect to receive from me. My personal experience, strength and hope.

John

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks John well said

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you, John. I appreciate your feedback on this.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you for your input...well stated.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes. Very well stated. Thanks John.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.