What part of the program has to do with family? - Al-Anon Family Group

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

What part of the program has to do with family?

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, Truth: Al-Anon has no opinion on outside issues, so I can't comment on your question about family values. What I can share is my own experience in the Al-Anon program. It has helped me learn to keep my focus on myself, clean up my own side of the street, stay out of my loved ones business, get and stay sane, enjoy peace, hope and joy, and watch others struggling with the affects of this disease learn to do the same. Until Al-Anon I was busy trying to change my x, get him to stop using, get him to be the father and husband I wanted him to be, and driving myself crazy with worry and frustration. After Al-Anon that all changed. I freed him to live as he chose. I freed myself to live life on life's terms.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Truth

Interesting observation. As far as the families of alcoholics, yes they all do need a program of recovery and that is why alanon and alateen exist. In fact the principles and support are all involved with Family values.

For me the meaning of Alanon "Family" Group stands for the fact that, we who live with or have lived with the problem of alcoholism form a FAMILY because of our shared experience and unique understanding of each other. It was at alanon meetings that I first understood and enjoyed the unconditional love, support and compassion of people who were not Blood relatives but who loved and accepted me unconditionally. The power of that connection is what healed me.

Because many of us come from families who have been destroyed by this dreadful disease it is so important to have this support at our Group level.

Please keep coming back and learn how to feel the power of this acceptance.

-

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I think a lot of the program has to do with values. Each step has a principle as follows:

1. Honesty: fairness and straightforwardness of conduct; adherence to the facts

2. Hope: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfillment; expectation of fulfillment or success; someone or something on which hopes are centered

3. Faith: allegiance to duty or a person; loyalty; fidelity to one's promises; sincerity of intentions; firm belief in something for which there is no proof; complete trust;
something that is believed especially with strong conviction. Re. religion: belief and trust in and loyalty to God; belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

4. Courage: mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty

5. Integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values; incorruptibility; an unimpaired condition; soundness; the quality or state of being complete or undivided

6. Willingness: inclined or favorably disposed in mind; ready; prompt to act or respond; done, borne, or accepted by choice or without reluctance; of or relating to the will or power of choosing

7. Humility: the quality or state of being humble.

Humble: not proud or haughty; not arrogant or assertive; reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission; ranking low in a hierarchy or scale; insignificant, unpretentious; not costly or luxurious

8. Brotherly Love: "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

9. Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments; judge; the administration of law; especially; the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity; the quality of being just, impartial, or fair; the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action; conformity to this principle or ideal; righteousness; the quality of conforming to law; conformity to truth, fact, or reason

10. Perseverance: the action or condition or an instance of persevering; steadfastness

Persevere: to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counter influences, opposition, or discouragement

11. Spirituality: This one was hard because almost all of the definitions relate to religion, and not as we know it: "Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for people who've been there." Here are the definitions (too long to post here): Spirituality, Spiritual, Spirit.

12. Service: the occupation or function of serving; help, use, benefit; contribution to the welfare of others; the act of serving; as a helpful act; useful labor that does not produce a tangible commodity.

***Now the problem I think you are getting at is that AA nor any 12 step program can turn us into saints. It is always going to be progress and not perfection. Last I checked, divorce rates were 60 percent and 70 percent of men were admitting to cheating in thier marriages. So basically what you are telling me is that AA makes that somewhat smaller? Anyhow, my point is that it's not going to stop people from being human and even for non-alcoholics - sadly divorces and affairs happen frequently. Not that this makes it ok.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks Pink Chip. If the principles are truly the interpretation (values) of the program, I guess what I am seeing as you say not perfection. I say deviation from the program. I know lots of people like to go to the fact that is happening in other parts of society as well. I don't think that is even relevant.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

The other thing I just noticed is 1) One thinks "family values" as an outside issue 2) One thinks "family" is your group 3) One listed the principles I am always so confused by what the program values

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

As I understand it, the question being asked here is how Al-Anon involves "family" when so many Al-Anoners' marriages end. I understand it as meaning the family of the drinker: the spouse, parents, siblings, and children of the drinker.

Part of what Al-Anon teaches us is that "We didn't cause it, we can't cure it, we can't control it" -- the three C's. If we could cure or control it, there would be no alcoholics left in the world. It's not Al-Anon's idea specifically, it's just a formulation of the truth. And the truth is also that for many of us, for our marriages to continue healthily, both partners would have to work their recovery. When one person is an active alcoholic or addict, and passing out every night on the floor, or failing to come home many nights and disappearing without explanation or excuse, or being violent with the family, or using up thousands of dollars supporting the habit, or stealing from the family, or terrifying the children or many of these at the same time (my ex did all of them except being violent) a healthy marriage is just not possible. We can remain married as the legal system sees it, but the drinker has already abandoned the marriage and is just using the other person as a tool or a punching bag. Sadly, no program can turn that around if the drinker refuses to turn it around and most of them do refuse.

But we can save our children and ourselves from that chaos and insanity and that's vital work. We are the families of the drinker and we can keep the families from going down the whirlpool of insanity.

So as I understand it, "family" doesn't mean "marriage" specifically. It means the drinker's family keeping them above water, so they can lead good lives without having to wait for the drinker to stop drinking. Because sadly in many cases if we had to wait for the drinker to stop drinking, we'd be mired in the insanity for a very long time.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth,

I am sorry we seem to be confusing. The Courage to Change. Page 11, clearly states that: "When a loved ones alcoholism brought me to AlAnon, I found a new, SECOND FAMILY, a Family that helped me discover the me hidden for so long, a Family that will always be there for me. Today I will enjoy having a place I reallly belong"

In addition alanon does not define anyones values but provides a safe place for each to explore his own inner self and define his own needs and solutions. To that extent we do not give advise nor do we judge one another.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Ultimately both AA and Alanon are in the business of restoring your individual sanity and serenity. They are programs for individuals and I believe the Family in "Alanon Family Groups" refers to that all family of alcoholics are qualified to be there. Not that it's a family improvement program.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Life with family does improve as I get better there are no guarantee's that things won't change. Ironically, .. I'm the odd bird out in my group .. most everyone else has chosen to stay married and work through with their A's there is even one who is still with an active A. In my case I decided I need something different as a whole in my own recovery. It's about finding a way to deal with the active A in my case, and still not get pulled into his chaos. Not always easy and not always attainable until after the fact. He's going to do whatever drink, steal, cheat, lie and so on .. I have no control over that I can decide if I want to be a part of it. I can choose a different reaction to it. If I want family values I go to church and even then just as Pink as pointed out .. that doesn't mean people aren't going to slip and slide off that pedestal. It absolutely has improved my relationship with other people in my life and it has taught me how to be a part of a family. I had no idea how to interact on that level before I started into Alanon. Now my children are benefiting because they are learning the difference between living and survival coping skills. Don't know if that makes sense or not. Hugs and welcome.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Still confused. The program itself has to have values otherwise it would not exist. Are the traditions its values?

It says place principles (assuming values) above personalities. What are the principles?

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

So the Family is the Family of Alcoholics......Not a Traditional Family? So you place the family of alcoholics above your traditional family (that is the programs endorsement)?

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I just listed the principles of each step above. Notice there are 12 principles. Each of them is supposed to result from working the corresponding step. Those are generally the principles and I suppose you could say "values" that all 12 step programs promote and encourage. People sometimes fall short and people are sometimes windbags just like holy rollers in church who don't practice what they preach. More often than not, I've seen progress and improvement in people's relationships when they honestly embrace the program and it's principles.

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

I believe in A.A. that when affairs happen it has a lot more to do with the unhealthy thinking of A's then with them actually working their own programs. The al-anon family for me is in my home meeting and the love we feel for each other. I feel loved, validated and accepted like no where else, no one has ever been able to understand me like fellow al-anoners. You can blame peoples family values or lack thereof on al-anon, but that is the way it is every where in this world even in religious families, it is sad and a result of people not living accountably unfortunately. In my face to face meeting I too am the minority being divorced from my exAH, it seems everyone else stayed married and some are still active. I am glad you found us and keep coming back. Sending you love and support on your journey!

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
So the Family is the Family of Alcoholics......Not a Traditional Family? So you place the family of alcoholics above your traditional family (that is the programs endorsement)?

My own ESH, my own opinion... Truth, you are raising a great topic! I would keep asking those questions!

Alanon gave me a huge sense of family. In 2011 I went to Stepping Stones the home of the founders, Lois and Bill. As you must well now they have passed. But over time I had pictured them as my mum and dad- it just grew on me. Being in their home I was able to let go of that... actually I felt that i was their only child!

But by being there I realised that I had brothers and sisters all over the world! And i could visit them by going to meetings- anywhere i was!

This does not take the place of my biological family. Not for me entirely...

...if you keep sharing on your topic, I for one, will keep adding smile

good on you... aww

DavidG

New Zealand.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

So the steps are the principles?

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

K thank you.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Pink ....where in the literature is the principle listing that you have provided?

KennyFenderjazz · ~*Service Worker*~

In my case, I have stayed with AW, who is in recovery. My recovery in Al Anon is improving our marriage greatly, because one of the problems we have been having from long before my wife became A is me detaching "without love". I was super passive/aggressive and manipulative and still lean that way a lot, and it has always been extremely unfair to my wife (and all others that I deal with) that I am like that. Al Anon has taught me to be much more aware of myself, which has translated into being more aware of my family and how my withdrawal affects them, and ultimately how it affects me. So my working on me has had the collateral benefit of making my marriage better. But if AW weren't in recovery, maybe would it drive us apart instead.

I believe in general the question becomes can you even be in family with an active A? Each individual situation is different from what I can tell, so that is one of the main questions people end up deciding one way or the other. Having a non-judgmental support group for the most part helps people to get their heads clear and decide what is the best path going forward. There may be no best path where the family can stay together, even to casual observers. If the A is getting violent, or if the A is having affairs and one-night stands, then the A has effectively already left the family.

Can emotionally vulnerable people be taken advantage of? Heck yeah, they can! That's why they even have nicknames for them in AA, right? Thirteenth steppers? I haven't heard of it happening in Al Anon, but I sure could see it happening here as well. But I think the baby shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater. I have seen so many people make progress in their lives and coming out of the insanity they have been living with for years in the short time I have been on MIP and in Al Anon, that I think that it is worth taking the risk of opening up to others to be in Al Anon. Otherwise, we get to keep living with the isolation that the alcoholic disease perpetuates, and nothing changes. And our families, and the next generations of our families, are guaranteed to have to pay for it.

Thanks for listening to my rambles.
Kenny

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The founders to the 12 step program were big on healing family which is why they included chapters "to the wives" and "the family afterwards" in the big book. You can find links to those and read them if you wish.

I am confused as to whether you are asking questions about AA versus Alanon. Can you specify?

Speaking from an AA perpective - They do not advocate placing "AA family" above your traditional family. It is through being part of the AA fellowship that we regain our ability to be sons, daughters, sisters, brother, husbands, wifes, mothers, fathers rather than half or non-functioning faxsimilies of those family roles. When a person is in the early stages of sobriety, it might seem like AA is taking priority over family, but that's mostly because this is an aggressive and isideous disease that doesn't care about values. Alcoholism is not a moral disease or deficiency though part of our recovery does involve questioning and inventorying our moral character. Early participation and involvement in AA generally only works in LARGE amounts. The high amount of meetings...that can put a strain on relationship not unlike when the person was drinking.

As far as Alanon goes: The focus is on rebuilding self, self-care, detaching from the insanity of active addiction and then being able to make empowered and spiritually driven choices from there (nobody will say stay or go from the relationship with your qualifier).

If you are looking for something more traditional or christian in values, I would suggest Celebrate Recovery. Alanon and AA are pretty secular. I think people even have a hard time saying "these are values we live by" even though the principles of the steps are pretty clear.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The principles are listed in the 12 and 12 which is one of the main books used in AA. Also sometimes change is slow - and a person will seem quite selfish and self-centered for the first years of recovery... Beats the alternative though. This is just what I've observed of people sobering up....and in myself.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Friday 14th of March 2014 11:35:37 AM

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

So the principles of the two programs are different?

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Maybe that is where the confusion was coming in.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I guess I am asking both so you have listed the principles of AA? What are the principles in Alanon?

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
So the steps are the principles?

Tradition 12 teaches us to place principals above personalities... aww

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I just liked the straight forward version that you provided.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The principles are the same Truth because the steps are the same bqsically

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

I could try another program. I actually think all religion, programs, etc are basically teaching the same thing so I am not sure that is actually the answer. I don't see any difference between religion and spirituality. I know you are basically saying one is fear based and the other is not. I think it is just the interpretation of fear. I can say AA is fear based as well....."Meetings or die". That seems like fear based message as well.

I guess my confusion is coming in because I am wondering if the fundemental principles (I call them values) of Alanon and AA are different?

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth wrote:
I guess my confusion is coming in because I am wondering if the fundemental principles (I call them values) of Alanon and AA are different?

They shouldn't be different at all. I don't comment on other people, not on other groups- and I don't comment directly about AA.

I think I can see where you are coming from. For me in Alanon its about gals, and pals. It isn't, and never has been, a dating agency! Far from it!

Some individuals in AA might think otherwise in AA... that is human nature at work. And from what I an see it is NOT working the programme. It causes havoc in families and I believe that it delays recovery.

DavidG.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Thank you. That is what I thought. I always just thought they were the same principles coming from different ends of the spectrum so now I see how the healing of a "traditional family" can work if both are working a program. However, I think both members would have to understand the spectrum and the outcome for that to work. I think it is the 1930's language that throws me for a loop. LOL

1. Honesty
2. Hope
3. Faith
4. Courage
5. Integrity
6. Willingness
7. Humility
8. Brotherly Love
9. Justice
10. Perseverance
11. Spirituality
12. Service

Muffindog72 · Member

Interesting topic. I am new to this so this is very interesting to me. I am finding that the principals are based on the 12 steps, which are basically the same in AA and Al Anon. Is that right?

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

That is correct muffin.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

It kind of seems oxymoronic in a way. Put a family in two distinct groups and call it a family program.

"Speaking from an AA perpective - They do not advocate placing "AA family" above your traditional family. It is through being part of the AA fellowship that we regain our ability to be sons, daughters, sisters, brother, husbands, wifes, mothers, fathers rather than half or non-functioning faxsimilies of those family roles. When a person is in the early stages of sobriety, it might seem like AA is taking priority over family, but that's mostly because this is an aggressive and isideous disease that doesn't care about values. Alcoholism is not a moral disease or deficiency though part of our recovery does involve questioning and inventorying our moral character. Early participation and involvement in AA generally only works in LARGE amounts. The high amount of meetings...that can put a strain on relationship not unlike when the person was drinking."

It is taking priority over family.... it does not just "seem" that way.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Your original post triggered me to become defensive of the program. I love this fellowship and am so grateful for the positive changes it has brought to my family, its basically putting us back together, giving some of what alcoholism took away and some. It seems to me you have some issues within yourself and your looking for someone or something to blame, I could be wrong. Where do your statistics come from? They are not my experience. Its amazing to me that someone who has been working the program can feel the way you do.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

It was my experience in the program.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Just watching the families and keeping track of the "traditional families" that ended up divorced and in affairs.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

Maybe the groups that are here are just really unhealthy.

Truth · ~*Service Worker*~

That is why I wanted to go back to the principles because it seems that they are getting deluded. If the first prinicple is honesty, well this is what is happening.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Could be, my group is made up of members who are still in their marriage, in fact there are a few members who were still with their husbands and the disease has killed them quite young. I left my ah before I got into alanon. Ironically, he is in aa now too. I think that if we had both gotten into theses programmes sooner we may have stayed together. Theres no way of knowing though.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Truth...to be honest, when I started AA, it was necessarily more important than just about anything.

At 5 years sober AA is still central in my life but not to the point that I can't be fully involved in family affairs. We could argue semantics, but without AA, there'd be no me so the importance of family given that...
All alcoholics have families basically, and if all it took was to say "What about your family!?" There would be no drunks. Addicts have powerful denial systems in place. In fact, I'm betting some of the women here will chime in and tell you their qualifiers tout themselves as super "family men." Some alcoholics actually use family values to keep family member hostage to unacceptable behaviors. For example, they may be quick to point out a wife's traditional family roles while installing shame and guilt and ignoring their own failures and inadequacies as a husband, father, etc...
This is a hot topic but I can tell you for sure, an alcoholic putting recovery first is a good thing because our history is sadly to put booze and or drugs first no matter how much we love our family. Also, if you talked to my family, they would tell you they are pleased with what AA has done for me.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.