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One of the things I've learned as a longtime program member of Al-Anon is how uncomfortable I can be over somebody else's denial. I have learned to let a person be where they are for the most part although sometimes I might slip up. I truly don't know what kind of harm I can do to another if I try to rip off their protective blinders. As Eugene Peterson states, "The thing that drives you crazy about another person may be the very thing that is keeping them sane."
Last night, I was listening to a longtime Al-anon speaker named Blanche who told her story and how the program worked for her. One of the things she talked about was dropping her pushing at other people's defenses. She learned it wasn't necessary. One of the most helpful things for me in letting go of my own defenses is to feel warm, safe and cared about by people who have known me and walked with me and truly care about me and my well-being. They've loved me and trusted me enough to share their own stories and they've trusted me and my HP enough to do what I need to do when I need to do it.
I am ashamed to admit it, but there have been times in my lifetime when I tried to help somebody "see the light." They didn't ask me for that. They just asked me to listen to them and to care about them. What I know today about that behavior on my part was that it wasn't loving and it wasn't helpful. Had I mentioned a concern I had and then dropped it, that would have been loving. But to push at somebody's defenses was an effort to control their process and their progress.
Listening to Blanche, I recognized that I am still capable of pushing at somebody's defenses because I'm uncomfortable with their story and want them to see the light. I am grateful that I can stop myself more quickly than I once did because its me who needs to see the light before the other person.
I too have pushed against others denial in an effort to have them" see" the light. When alanon suggested that I examine my motives for doing this and abandoning alanon principles, I found the same truth that you have just spoken to, I was uncomfortable with their process, wanted them to"see"it my way and tried to force the issue.
I do now see and understand that showing someone respect, listening with love and empathy to them as they sort through the grief and pain of their life, is the very best support I can give another.
HP has the Power to show them and will give them the Power to carry out His will as the 11th Step suggests.
Hugs, and ABSOLUTELY!! I have a hard time with newcomers because of the pain I know they are in and it's right there .. it is actually pretty selfish of me to want them out of their pain as quickly as possible because it is absolutely about me. That's not ok .. because their pain isn't mine.
I am seeing it clearer when I start to do that and I try to stop myself before I start. I have also learned I don't need to respond to every post .. I still respond to a lot .. not like I used to. Sometimes though I think people need a mirror from time to time .. if they are still saying the same thing 6 mo later and nothing changes .. guess what .. nothing changes .. and everyone needs a gentle push from time to time. While everyone is on their own journey .. the pain can be so great they don't even realize they are doing it .. I'm looking at myself when I say that .. I don't realize I am still playing the same song .. it just happens to be a different day. That's where a sponsor is really good in terms of being able to say .. really .. LOL .. how is this working for you exactly? It is a fine line between knowing when to say something and how to say it. Sometimes people say things I'm just not ready and that's ok too .. I can file that .. really it's my choice what I do with that information.
What has disturbed me from time to time is it's not my right to tell someone they don't feel a specific way OR they shouldn't feel that way .. I grew up like that and I don't like it. I feel when that happens that there is something wrong with me and it actually shuts me down from sharing because I view my feelings as wrong. I have a right to be angry about specific situations .. living there .. no .. however being angry that the kids dad chooses not to pay what he's suppose to pay, .. do I live there? No of course not. My ultimate goal is forgiveness .. am I there? Not yet, I'm on the road and that's ok. I know I should feel compassion because he's sick .. I don't .. and I probably won't for a long time .. can I feel compassion for others .. yes, so it's a start, do I have to feel compassion for him tomorrow? No .. I don't.
I've just really started embracing I'm exactly where I'm suppose to be and that's ok. I am really trying to treat others with the same courtesy and respect.
Hugs S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
I too have pushed against others denial in an effort to have them" see" the light. When alanon suggested that I examine my motives for doing this and abandoning alanon principles, I found the same truth that you have just spoken to, I was uncomfortable with their process, wanted them to"see"it my way and tried to force the issue.
I do now see and understand that showing someone respect, listening with love and empathy to them as they sort through the grief and pain of their life, is the very best support I can give another.
HP has the Power to show them and will give them the Power to carry out His will as the 11th Step suggests.
Well count me in on this too......I learned a lesson of late about MY pushing at another's defenses, albeit well meaning, it was still pushing.......I think what I need to do is give MY ES&H, my experience and what I did, did not do, etc. , then BACK off......Let it simmer....Let it be.....
I am never gonna be an enabler...I am going to speak MY truth as I experienced it, but where I go wrong is to push and shove when I needed to just give my share and then back off.....not go over and over it again and again......b/c yea, ripping stitches out b4 the wound has had enough air in which to heal it can cause severe damage and bleeding.....I don't want it done to me, so therefore, I am gonna treat others the way I want/need to be treated....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
I examine my motives for doing this and abandoning alanon principles, I found the same truth that you have just spoken to, I was uncomfortable with their process, wanted them to"see"it my way and tried to force the issue.
yep....its either a trigger of some sorts, or just being uncomfortable b/c I was there and suffered and it brings up old stuff???? I relate to the "I was uncomfortable with their process"......and yea, I get to zealous about wanting them to "see the light" when i really need to do is encourage alanon and its suggestions...give my experience/share.....and quit forcing the issue.....so true, Betty....I accept this about me and awareness is the biggest part of the changing it....
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
(((Betty, Serenity, and Neshema) Sure good to know I'm not alone here with this. This gal's story really hit home for me last night! Wow! I've made amends by changing my behavior in this area, but every once in awhile - it shows up again.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 2nd of February 2014 08:49:39 PM
(((Betty, Serenity, and Neshema) Sure good to know I'm not alone here with this. This gal's story really hit home for me last night! Wow! I've made amends by changing my behavior in this area, but every once in awhile - it shows up again.
-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 2nd of February 2014 08:49:39 PM
((((((C)))))))) re: your "I've made amends by changing my behavior in this area, but every once in awhile - it shows up again.".....that is why we shoot for progress...Let HP be perfect, LOL
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Live and let live and do it with peace and goodwill to all!!!!
Even as a relative 'newbie'(1 yr +), I find myself not just listening to friends just coming into the program, but being impatient for them to 'see the light'. I have been working on patience lately, for me this falls into that category, that and me and my gigantic will thinking I know better in any given situation :)
This is a great topic. It is such a tightrope for me to walk between sharing my ESH and pushing to help someone new "get it." I think, but don't know, I stretch the envelope on this chat site sometimes by sharing too much and I'm never sure if I sound like I'm being pushy or not. Most of the time I find I have to rewrite my shares to edit out the "too much, too soon." Like you all have shared, the mind can only handle baby steps when someone comes into the program. I'm never sure if someone is a newbie or not so I need to ask a question about the profile page. The line that says "member since" is that referring to time on this website or time since coming into Alanon? I'm confused a lot lately so I hope people will be tolerant when my cognitive functioning is on the fritz, like today.
Hi Grateful, great post. I have struggled with this too here on the forum. For me, its not the denial really, I can accept that is a huge symptom that can take a while and can come back even when you have got rid of the denial. I can get impatient with members who talk the talk but clearly don't really know what Alanon is about. Its like we are just a problem page like any other. Some people dip their toe in and out. I would prefer to see people go for it in Alanon and then their ESH means something to others, you know the whole pass it on. Our ESH is just good advice to some people. Although, having said that, If that is helping someone with this horrible problem then that is good too. I recognise this as a flaw in me, my impatience, my desire to control anothers recovery, my drive to control.
When I was in denial there was no way anyone could have penetrated that, no way. I would have justified, blamed, lied to myself if my denial was challenged so I dont think we have the power to pull anyones band aid off. We can gently challenge the distorted thinking, I think thats us being true to ourselves. We cant go into the darkness just to appease someone, we must be honest, its the way we do it thats important and the motives behind it.
It is good to look at this from another perspective from the person helping, because my denial was my way of life for 16 years. I thought I was seeing but really only glimpses of what was going on.
I must have drove people crazy because it took me 6 months to see. I didn't understand alcoholics at all and I didn't grow up with it.
What is hard is the A kept sucking me back in to stay in denial.
Plus I wanted that fantasy family and my A kept stopping and starting drinking which hindered my recovery.
I know I can or have to rescue someone written in my way that I function.
I am so new in recovery and because my recovery means I am going to make it with a new way at life it brings urgency to do it asap.
I really wanted to move fast through this whole process otherwise I would have lost everything. I barely moved as I was a snail.
Someone told me that God was protecting me.
I remember people surrounding me and helping me. I was in a fog from getting maybe 4 hours sleep a night. I really could only process one thing when I am a great multitasker.
We do soak everything but it does take time for the brain to trust again. I believe I learned patience in that 6 to 7 months. It was a very hard lesson.
My light bulb moment is when I found serenity and let go ----
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I have hope that my next minute will be better and to learn from my last minute.
CW and EC: Love the candor here. The powerful reminder to check our motives really stood out for me, LC. The mind can only handle baby steps - that is a concept I've never considered before now, CW.
Brutally honest at times.lol. Im trying to be softer these days Grateful, great post though - pushing at someones defenses- It is a difficult one because we want people to see their flawed thinking but we must remember that 'we are powerless' and we also might have it wrong, staying humble and remembering we also suffered from flawed thinking and still can at times, the difference is we are more open to these flaws being out there, discussed and even dealt with, we are no longer within that cave of shame and isolation, hiding all the crap but actually showing it so readily.x
I think this falls in the brutally honest category, since I don't admit this to many people. But I came to recognize in myself that when I hit up against a certain kind of person's defenses, those who cloaked themselves in the victim role, it was like chum in the water to me and I would tear through their defenses just like a shark does chum. Clearly this was a trait in myself I was not proud of and I had to be ruthless in rooting it out of myself. I discovered there are some people who are so damaged they cant ever rid themselves of their codependent defenses or they would die. When I am around the most defensed of victims, I can still feel the "urge" of the predator, I just no longer feel the need to act on it. I developed the urge as a survival mechanism as a child. I instinctually found these kind of people a threat because they attract victimizers.
Today I have healed enough that I never have to go back there. I'm an adult who can take care of herself (mostly) and can be gentle and kind with the poor souls who cant let go of their defenses completely, at least most of the time. It is how I made my peace with the Alanon group in my town (there's only one) which is highly controlled by one person in the group. I go to listen, read the literature and rarely share. I find the hard core Alanon I need mostly here and for that I am grateful. Cuz I need alanon pretty much all hours every day. I figure there's at least 500 years of Alanon on the forums at any given time and who can gainsay that?
Agreed Neshema