This must have come up a few million times before... - Al-Anon Family Group

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

This must have come up a few million times before...

Raven Juniper · Senior Member

A cunning and baffling disease...(((((Hugs))))) (((((Melly))))) I'm here on the plateau right beside you...lots of love! <3

barbaralewis · Veteran Member

((((hugs melly)))

when i have reached the not caring stage before, it has been the prelude to understanding of things that will not change about someone else , which gave me the initiative and ability to change what i could about MY living situation.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

When I feel like I am on a plateau, I look out beyond that place and ask myself, what action do I need to take for me. I take everyone else out of the equation. Sometimes I am standing on that plateau waiting for someone else to make a move so I can respond/react.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear Melly

I am glad that you found the time and energy to share and release some of your deep concerns and sadness. We are all a little conflicted as we attempt to live with and along side of the disease of alcoholism You have much clarity and wisdom going for you. You are a kind, understanding, compassionate woman and are clearly a gift to your partner. I can so understand your anger that HE does not see this and attempt to respond in a healthy manner . Then again you see clearly that he is not healthy and is doing the best he can.

The issue now is that we who live with the disease must respond to life in a healthier manner so we can get better grow and thrive I believe you are doing that .I salute your efforts.

Try to stay cool Maybe a dip in the ocean today would be in order.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Melly, hugs .. I'm currently in this place of weird ok .. I know things have to change .. I have no emotional attachment anymore to my stbax outside of financial. Even that this past week has revealed a lot to me .. I just don't care anymore if he losses his job .. He's been hiding behind that and has used it as a tool to control my behavior. I kind of figure he's been sent a very clear message .. it's been over played and over used it's time for him find something else or let go. I think his attorney now has a better idea of what I'm dealing with and he hasn't in anyway helped that situation. I can really relate to your share .. other people want to make his issue mine and the reality is .. no not ok. You have more patience than I do .. lol ... I find a reason to get off the phone. If nothing changes .. well nothing changes and I don't want to do this dance in 2015 .. so I have to figure out what works for me. It's time to change partners and dances at this point for me. There are no easy answers that I'm very sure of .. I have to change and it's usually the last thing in the world I want to do. Hugs yana ;)

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Walking three hours through the 110-degree weather because it's too much effort to get the car fixed -- and then lugging a case of beer home despite that -- that says it all about the craziness of addiction, doesn't it? It's like a big symbol for the whole thing. Everything helpful is a huge effort, but the addiction must be served no matter what.

Symbolically speaking, I've done that walk carrying that addiction on my shoulder too.

It sounds as if you are seeing clearly, including how insane it all is. And doing great in the "Don't React" department. And your ABF is really experiencing the consequences of his own decisions. Way to go on not rescuing him out of his insanity! Clearly any sane person would put the case of beer down and go get that car fixed.

Hang in there. Sounds to me like you're doing great.

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

I thought I was making no sense yet you guys made sense of my rambling.
Thank-you.
I'm so not happy with where I am at these past few days. I'm so irritable. I wonder if it is a kind of cody withdrawal because I'm not letting the cuddles or lukewarm sex happen?
I'm just pushing through where in the past I would take advantage of any opportunity to feel closeness even though it always ends badly.
I don't want to play pretend anymore.
I grumped at my kid all day today and lectured her for such small offenses. I was a b***. When I tucked her in I told her I am sorry and I don't know why I am being so grumpy. She forgave me with a big hug but still, I have been childish and grumpy and really unhappy with myself.
I keep drifting off into romantic fantasies and I haven't done that for years.
Ick, let this day pass.
How can I be good with starting out as just me if I'm going to fall to angry pieces after a few weeks of no physical intimacy? Has anyone else experienced this or am I some kind of sex addict? lol.

-- Edited by hotrod on Tuesday 14th of January 2014 04:58:24 PM

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I cannot answer your question for you, but I can share my experience from my first marriage. I find it interesting that today I am drawn back to my first husband. I had posted earlier today that I took my anger and loneliness out on him in ways that I wish I hadn't. I also felt the impact of my behaviors towards my children as a result of that anger and loneliness...those feelings leveled me, I crumpled and cried. I have amends to make to my children. Another thing that I did was have an affair. Not because I was a sex addict; I craved the feeling of being desired and worthwhile. This was the only way I knew how to feel like a worthwhile woman...not just a mom, a great employee or a friend, I needed and wanted to feel like a woman. You may need and want the same and those are healthy needs.

And I had another insight about the plateau...sometimes it is a place to rest.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

When my ex was feeling loving, I was always so happy, because I believed that he was back to the "real" relationship and things would be better from then on -- even if he had some bad spells, he would remember the closeness we had and wouldn't disappear so far into his dysfunction and addictions.

It was really, really hard for me to give up this belief and realize that the loving was only a temporary spell in the midst of chaos that was just as "real."

It sounds as if you've done better at having that realization than I did.

With that realization, though, comes a craving for the closeness and intimacy (emotional and physical) that's in a healthy relationship. Our dissatisfaction is a sign of our good health, as I see it. We realize what we need and we're clear on the fact that we're not getting it.

I kept going back to the hardware store for bread. Sounds like you're clearer that that sign that says "BREAD!" in the window of the hardware store is a scam.

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

Such a blessed relief to know that you guys understand.
Still, fighting the urge to go and crawl into bed next to him and accept some one-sided intimacy when he wakes up and pretend it means something.
Cannot believe how empty I feel after just a couple of weeks of saying no because it doesn't feel right.
A few days ago, he tried to pull me into his trash-can room (300+ empty cans, rotting chicken bones, dishes, bottles of urine) and I told him, I don't want to be hurtful but I can't feel romantic in a room that is so disgusting, it would be like making love in a garbage truck) and he was so hurt because that was who he was when I met him, that is who he has always been and that is how he is. I was surprised at myself for saying no but I feel as though I am worth a clean sheet, a urine-free room and a general filth-free environment. I wonder why I didn't think so before?
I guess I have standards now. But oh, craving the closeness

gingerfizz · Veteran Member

"Meaningful kisses on the forehead" and "I love you's"... these make us feel guilty and try to hook us back in... look at his motivation for them. I find that my AH uses things like this not because he wants to give but because he wants to get - to make things go back to normal, to get me to go back to being his caretaker, to "check" on me/my mood/ to try to see if I love him and accept him. I found he book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" helpful re this. (It is free - you can search the title and "pdf" and you should be able to find it - I hope it is ok to post this on this site.) It is written for men, hence the title, but it really is a book about looking at codependent behavior that men engage in to manipulate us or to relieve them of their own anxieties. When I am highly aware I can see that my AH's apparent "nice guy" behavior is a very subtle attempt to manipulate me or to get me back into caretaker role for him. He doesn't even know he is doing it. It is a habit for him. He gets very frustrated when he is doing the "nice guy" thing and I don't buy in to it.

My AH also tells me he hasn't changed... I liked him when I met him.... and that's true... I imagine it must be frustrating for him... I entered a relationship with him years ago in a complete state of dysfunction and codependency and now I have changed quite a bit and I have changed the rules on him / what I will accept, what I will do, etc. It must feel quite unfair and unsettling and scary to him.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Sounds like a solid boundary to me, and, yes, you deserve that and more. Stay connected here to help with some of the intimacy yearnings. Do you have friends you can meet up with to play and have fun?

Jill · ~*Service Worker*~

I think that is one of the many miracles of Al-Anon. We grow up!

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh wow, I miss the sex, but more so the feeling of being loved however it came from my exAH, just being touched and held which was lacking in my childhood by far. My exAH was very good at playing the game so I would behave to get some intimacy from him and as soon as he was done, it started all over. I had to earn it and wasn't always worthy of him showing me love, which now that I learned to love myself. I now scoff at how it was and how low my self worth and esteem were, the hurdles I would leap through. Now that I know better and feel like I deserve more, I have received more from the next man I dated and although I dated someone that still wasn't a great fit for me, I learned to be empowered. It felt so good to be loved and have someone that regularly wanted to just hold my hand and touch me without me having to earn it. I learned boundaries and how to speak my mind in my next relationship and it was amazing to see the difference in myself and I even learned what was my responsibility to take care of and it was not his health. I take things slow now and truly know I will never settle again and it feels awesome. You do deserve more than a garbage heap to roll around in and there is nothing wrong with realizing it. Your awareness is really opening up and with that and the heat, I do not blame you for getting a bit irritable and having a plateau. I have had lots of them and it was always a huge growth spurt in the making. You sound like you handled it well with your daughter and are doing great in the midst of it. I am so glad to hear your growth and to share this journey with you! Sending you much love and support!

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

When I read your post what I feel is that maybe you are angry because you are using Al-Anon tools and working hard to detach, let go, not enable, not react; doing everything you can think of using Al-Anon ways and he STILL hasn't come around, still does his thing; his addictions still control his actions. I remember going to my ex's residence, beer cans stacked up to the ceiling, evidence of a mouse population, smell of old stale beer, and looking around thinking why would anyone choose to live in squalor rather than give up something so stupid as beer? I think that's where I finally got that it wasn't a choice for him, he wasn't choosing squalor, he was addicted and the addiction wouldn't let him give it up. Getting to that realization helped me to step back and accept that I couldn't do anything to get him to GET IT. I remember the anger at him for not fighting to keep "us", angry because I was doing all this "stuff" the literature said to do for myself and it didn't change him or the situation one bit.

-- Edited by likemyheart on Tuesday 14th of January 2014 04:11:54 PM

ssilver · Member

I felt a nervous laugh well up when I read your description of the nightly "good night" ritual. I'm 40 years into it and that's how it went just last night! Time to wake up, huh? I enjoy your posts because I love your way with words and tho your whole thing is different than mine, I can and do relate. You hang in there and keep us posted. Prayers and hugs to you, Melly.

Sabrina

1911A1 · Senior Member

"I don't want to play pretend anymore."

This says it all. It is one step removed from the sentence it took me decades to learn I had the right to say: "I deserve better."

Keep up the awesome growth.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear Melly,

I agree with all that has been posted so far and would like to assure you that you or by no means a sex addict just because you crave intimacy and closeness. You are human.

I applaud your decision to no longer pretend and to accept the fact that you deserve better.

I'm glad that you keep coming back and remain a Miracle in Progress

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow!!! super great vent! um well tomorrow won't be better unless we make it so.

I found a long time ago I do not want intimacy with anyone but who I am in love with and who is in love with me.

I would ask you, what would make someone want a person who is this insane and filthy? It sounds like you really want intimacy with someone, some real heart, not just the physical action.

Of course you are worth all those things you mentioned.

Ok he said it honey, this is me, I am not going to change. So what are you going to do? Are you going to stay and be miserable? Are you going to keep growing like I see you are, and make a life for yourself and child?

Do you want your child to see this is how relationships are?

What makes you not deserve to be on your own with a clean home, a happy atmosphere, and maybe someday start dating and possibly meeting someone special?

We get so involved in their sickness we get pulled into their pit. Its horrible, you my friend are climbing out. You are progressing. We are sicker than they are for accepting that which is insanity! I am excited for you, you have a HUGE miracle coming.

Keep those eyes open. BTW mom is terribly sick too, she is his number one enabler. Its not our job to babysit and care for an adult man. Myself I like a clean, confidant, humorous, stubborn guy who gives to me, as much as I give him. I want to respect him!

Our mates reflect a part of us. Is he who you want to reflect part of you?

hugs!!! great progress, debilyn

abell · Member

Melly I read your first post and you seem very aware of exactly what is going on. You are aware of the "drama cycles"... my life is almost exactly like yours, i'm even the same age. I work my program. I just made a list on a sheet of paper of all the great alanon slogans i can use to be more aware. "the disease lies, it wants what the disease wants, when it wants it" "I stay on my side of the street and mind my own business" "stop trying to control others and start taking care of myself." My AHBF/ex-AHBF?? is dirty, irresponsible, owns nothing, doesn't care... he's almost 40.. he's lost a lot of weight.. HE REFUSES TO TALK ABOUT ALCOHOL OR HIS DRINKING PROBLEM AND HE BLAMES ME FOR GOING "CRAZY" DURING THE TIMES WE"RE APART, and he calls me "my girl" too! just like you. his mom is one of his biggest enablers, i hate it when she calls me "honey". when i first met him she said "honey i'm so glad you're doing all these things for him, i got tired of doing them for him, he just needs so much help"... 4 years later my older self tells my younger self, don't even get involved. run run run as fast and as far as you can... i'm just starting to become aware of the "Mr Nice Guy" thing. He's being really nice right now. So i'm supposed to FORGET that I'm not in love with the liar, the bum, the agro drunk? the holding and kissing feelings so good, surely this is love and support and validation right? Time to get to another meeting, quick. Thanks for your share, thanks for letting me share. Your awareness is great. My awareness is getting there too, how the disease works to control everyone and everything... but the hard part is figuring out what i can CHANGE in my life and what I cannot. Breaking up with him, honestly, is hard. I break up with him during the lows then get back together during the highs. but you are right, right after i am loving or sexual with him, he always drinks. why? i wonder. not good for a woman's self-esteem. Remember... he may never stop drinking...

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

Greetings Melly,

I am in a similar phase in my life. I told myself that I would be honest and then learnt that part of being honest with myself was the acknowledgement that I did not want 'crazy' in my relationships anymore. I need AH to earn my respect and trust before I shared with him again. I've come to realise that I can not live in the level of denial that AH would prefer and that is fairly uncomfortable for us both! The price of this new awareness is that I do not have intimacy in my day to day life and I miss that. I think that intimacy with someone is a very basic human need. The question that I find that I ask myself these days is how long am I going to continue doing this? I don't think that I will be putting the rose tinted glasses back on (yay!!!) but the downside of that is what do I do to get my needs met? I enjoy the company of friends; I seek out things that I enjoy and add value to my life. Baby steps. I hope that I will reach a point where I stop beating myself up for staying in a bad relationships without speaking up for what I need. The next steps will, I hope, show themselves when I'm ready

I shall be trying the cold water towel on my head next summer - it sounds very refreshing and worth a giggle of relief!

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh dear.

In the supermarket today, a cute guy starts chatting me up. I walk away feeling good (it's good to be noticed).

Later I go to the river with my daughter for an evening dip and she says look mum- there's that guy who was talking to you in the supermarket today! She is right. He's waving to me. He and his buddies have clearly been drinking all day on the river bank; there is a pile of empty cans and bottles and the 3 of them are trying to help him operate a kayak and somehow every time he gets into it he travels a few feet and suddenly flips upside down..You have to be pretty drunk not to be able to sit upright lol. . It's sad. It's hillarious. I watch them for ages and giggle and let the reality sink in. If he was MY boyfriend it wouldn't be funny, it'd be as embarrassing as hell and I'd be so pissed at him.

This is why I'm going to have to be alone for a good long time. I don't want to but I'm going to have to. Until I stop being an A-magnet.

-- Edited by Melly1248 on Wednesday 15th of January 2014 05:43:47 AM

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm not sure we are exactly A magnets - but our ability to see them for what they are doesn't work properly, we see the cuteness without seeing the disease. When they say while trying to be charming, "I'm gonna do this, gonna do that, good at this and that, etc..." while downing a beer like he's dying of thirst, I pay attention now.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

But, he did give you an affirmation that you are indeed desirable as a woman, then your HP, said, not yet, not him. This is all perfectly orchestrated "from the desk of" HP.

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

I can agree unfortunately Melly, I attract men that are either needy or have some other problems related to insufficient care of themselves. I am getting a handle on my need to grab to fix or save these men. I decided I will not go down with the ship and have a shiny new life preserver with al-anon written all over it. Until my mandar (man radar) improves it is singledom for me and it really is very freeing. I am sending you much love and support!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Melly: Are you growing or are you growing!!!!?????? To recognize your needs as a woman and to be unwilling to "go there again" before you have made changes and gotten stronger as the beautiful woman you are are strong, courageous words to allow into your consciousness. And from that consciousness will flow the follow up actions that can determine a whole new kind of life for you. (((M)))

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks so much everyone.
You really do all have a way of turning my thinking back around when I wander off down a negative path.
Today was a better day

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

Also, it has been really interesting to explore my boundaries around this issue.
I know that I used to accept really crumby conditions because I thought if I proved to ABF (and husband before him, etc) that I was crazy about him no matter what, he'd realise that I was the bestest most loving devoted and awesome woman in the whole wide world and, once he came to this amazing realisation, he would modify himself to match. Insane, yes, but there it is. That's what I thought I believed.

Since I started erecting boundaries, he has tried soooo hard to test them and find ways over, under and around them. For example, in regards to intimacy, I decided for myself- not if he's drunk, not if he's dirty, not when he's been mean, not in his gross room, not when I'm asleep and not if I don't feel like it. He's tried so, so hard to make me think I am unreasonable and push me to back down. Sticking to this has been really scary...because somewhere in there I think I believed that the only thing that WAS lovable about me was my willingness to completely compromise myself in the name of love.

But there's more and it absolutely doesn't matter whether he sees that or not. Boundaries aren't about teaching him to treat me better. They are about teaching myself that I deserve better. What happens next will be an adventure

Sorry if I'm repetetive. Just reinforcing this stuff for myself. It feels good to write it, feel it and mean it.

-- Edited by Melly1248 on Thursday 16th of January 2014 11:55:51 AM

Cathyinaz · ~*Service Worker*~

Melly take care of YOU....and don't give in but also be prepared for anything. No is a complete sentence and no further words are needed. Keep it simple my friend.

((( hugs )))

Beatrice · Senior Member

Melly you are moving in the right direction and you have come a long way.

But not till you become sick and tired of being sick and tired will there be a change for you. I saw one of the responses about your A not coming around. We do not do Alanon for the drinker to come around or to make a change in him. Its not about him. Its about you.

What I see is a big spoiled brat that's been created and enabled by his Mother, let her take care of him. Because he is a bully and bullies can fall quite easily . The only change in him would be he would be crying like a baby if you ever left him, he would crumble . And not just a getaway , he would know your coming back. Alanon doesn't teach survival techniques, it teaches solutions , serenity and real happiness. I would never tell a person what to do Melly. Its totally your decision if you want this man and obviously you love him and want it to work out and for him to change. We all did. If you want a change , you have to be the one to make the change.

You may have to depend upon him for a home or support and you do have a daughter. Still doesn't mean that you should live your life on egg shells and it be a constant strategy.

We cannot sit around and do Alanon and hope the alcoholic changes or that we do our program in hopes of just keeping the peace. The goal here is for your happiness. He is happy the way things are, because he gets his way. I lived 30 years with an Alcoholic, he never stopped drinking and he never changed, but I did, it was a long sorrowful road. He died @ 58 from organ failure. What was the first thought? I want my years back, give me my years back....boy I had to work thru that one.

Your young Melly, think of the big picture, don't take a lifetime like I did. Learn from our experiences and mistakes and keep working it . I can't remember if you have a sponsor or not that would really help you.

Best in recovery

Bettina

Melly1248 · ~*Service Worker*~

I certainly don't depend on him for a home or support lol he pays half the rent and sometimes contributes to the bills IF I let them get to the point of disconnection and he realises I'm not paying my half until he pays his. Actually I used to support him financially because he couldn't bring himself to get a job for several years so I paid all of the rent, bills and everything else for him. As sad as it is, the fact is that I have stayed with him out of pure sickness, not any financial need lol. I'm feeling great about where I am at; it's light years from the wretch from a few years ago that struggled to pay the bills, feed him (carrying all of the groceries and beer home each day in a backpack while he played computer games), and cried and cried all the time because I was "trying so hard and he was just so mean to me". I had a fair way to go, you know. Still do.

-- Edited by Melly1248 on Thursday 16th of January 2014 07:51:02 PM

Beatrice · Senior Member

What did he ever do in his life or past life to deserve a person as yourself......Is this a cultural thing?

Keep empowering yourself Melly, so you don't need him financially....you might ask why do you need him, do you feel responsible or sorry for him.?

Keep working it.

Little Bird · Member

Although my story is different than yours, I can relate to several of your feelings. I am grateful for the support of Al Anon, and I am grateful for the tools it teaches us to find strength.
Hang in there. Stay focused.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.