Even Gandhi! - Al-Anon Family Group

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

Even Gandhi!

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I understand that Debilyn, but what led to them putting the first drink in their mouth? What leads folks to put the first cigarette, pill that somebody has told them will make them high, chew glue sticks, sniff butane - all those things contribute to people getting high (well, not cigarettes so much). I truly think it is deeper than that. Why is our natural state - and alcohol is used to get high by people who aren't alcoholics - so distasteful to us that we want to get high? I just don't get it. And most of the folks I have known - pre-getting high - were unhappy.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 21st of September 2013 11:46:38 PM

-- Edited by grateful2be on Saturday 21st of September 2013 11:48:25 PM

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

I knew a heroin addict, he was a boyfriend to my cousin. I never knew anyone who used heroin. He was in jail most of his life.

I met him in his late 60's, he was a really intelligent man, he had a lot of time to read while in jail.

He was a real honest kind of a guy and you could ask him anything. One nite we were all going out to dinner, he was living with my cousin and trying to stay clean and sober, he even got a job, which was a miracle, being he was in jail for Racketeering.

Anyway, he was real open about his life and addiction. I asked him, tell me b..... why do people get high and he looked at me and said, "Don't let anybody tell you a bunch of lies and crap, the one and only reason we use is because we Love the high, simple as that".

He passed away a couple of years ago, but I won't forget what he told me. I know that Heroin is a substance that stirs a physical addiction , but so does booze, I believe its more physical then mental.

-- Edited by Bettina on Sunday 22nd of September 2013 12:11:43 AM

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Bettina wrote:

"It is wrong and immoral for a nation to supply intoxicating liquor to those who are addicted to drink ".
Gandhi

-- Edited by Bettina on Saturday 21st of September 2013 09:02:04 PM

For those of us who have suffered as a result of substance abuse of any kind, yea, I agree, however the Volstead Act tried that and the underworld beginning with Johnnie Torrio and his protege, Al Capone and then the mafia in New York and other cities jumped in on the act...made millions off bootleg booze..Others not as careful as Capone and co., made bad booze that actually blinded people...the Back yard Gin Mills thrived....Man is gonna drink one way or the other..At least making it legal, a person isn't apt to get bad booze....So I see both sides of the coin even tho in MY life alcohol drinking was the "devil" ..

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Amen

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

There are no commercials on TV for cigarettes, the same should hold true for alcohol.

Its too late now, the operative word, is supply, Gandhi is a genius.

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

The state control's liquor licenses, if you notice in low income neighborhoods, there is a liquor store on every corner.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Bettina wrote:

There are no commercials on TV for cigarettes, the same should hold true for alcohol.

Its too late now, the operative word, is supply, Gandhi is a genius.

Oh Bettina, I totally agree....I feel it is wrong to show that crap, people treating it like candy, and its a "non dangerous" substance...very few commercials warn to not drink and drive...they glamorize the drinking in the commercials..never a warning that this substance can have devastating after affects......I SO agree w/what Gandhi says and btw, he is one of my all time faves...along with the Dali Lama (Sorry I can't spell but you know whom I am referring to)

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes, I like the Dali very much...

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Bettina wrote:

The state control's liquor licenses, if you notice in low income neighborhoods, there is a liquor store on every corner.

yep...the poor drink to "wash away their worries" oh yea, poor folks fall victim to this and the rich, party hearty and more classy booze but the same drinking addiction....I don't think drinking and drugs really know any socio economic boundaries....the rich have their own "wet bars" in their homes...they go to their high class grocery markets and buy all the stuff they want OR have it delivered so noone sees them buying their "indulgence" and "store" it in their "home bar" for their parties....look at Lindsey Lohan the c- list actress....in and out of court on drunken stupid things she would do....a slap on the wrist....never jail time....makes me ill....to see these people who think they are above punishment, drinking, engaging in domestic violence...we think it is just the curse of the poor but I think that it is permeated all classes.....just different ways of distribution.......

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

What I don't understand is why are so many folks unhappy? Unhappy enough to drink, smoke, use substances that they know will bring about really difficult results? Why do so many of us need to be high? We tried to outlaw alcohol in this country. It didn't work. We've had a war on drugs for 20 years or more. Didn't work. I've known kids who sniffed butane, chewed glue sticks, breathed in the chemicals in aerosol cans. I've known alcoholics who burned their stomach lining by drinking hair spray with alcohol in it. None of it makes any sense to me at all.

What is it that so many folks are truly seeking? I don't know the answer to that question. I just wonder about it sometimes. Ghandi's quote made me consider it again.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I love reading all the things he has said. thank you!

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful to be! Addict do not use becuz they are unhappy! They have a disease! Many addicts are very happy people, successful, judges, doctors etc. Of course if they continue the disease brings them down. It's in ones dna to have a predisposition to be an addict! hugs. deb

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful and the war on drugs by the government is a joke.

Drugs mean money, and I'm going to read a book called "Cartel" where this expert discusses the drug Cartel, which the USA is very connected too and she predicts the Cartel will be all over America. Its already here most gangs are into weapons and drugs.

A very distressing fact of life. Greed is the motivating factor.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

Bettina wrote:

Grateful and the war on drugs by the government is a joke.

Drugs mean money, and I'm going to read a book called "Cartel" where this expert discusses the drug Cartel, which the USA is very connected too and she predicts the Cartel will be all over America. Its already here most gangs are into weapons and drugs.

A very distressing fact of life. Greed is the motivating factor.

Bettina, you are spot on on this one......I , too, heard of the cartel....and you bet....greed is the motivating factor......

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

PP: And I suspect the only way to get there is by allowing ourselves to be in our natural state. I watch my cats as they stretch, sleep, eat, look out the window, drink water from their bowls, roll on their backs for me to rub their tummies, fight each other for a few seconds, or put their bodies firm against mine. Their tails are usually held high as they run through the house or pitter-patter towards me. All they eat is cat food. All they drink is water. They are contented cats. Their lives are a lesson for me.

We can very well be doing that, PP. Creating future addicts by dispensing meds for our kids. "Oh, do you have a headache? Here's some aspirin." But we don't try to find out the source of that headache. "Oh, are you acting out at home or at school? Here's some Ritalin." But we don't try to find out why the child is acting out at school or at home. "Oh, do you have a stomach ache? Here, take some Pepto Bismol, Zantac, Rolaids." But, we don't try to find out the reason for the stomach ache.

Scares me how often we use meds but don't really look at the source of the pain or discomfort.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 22nd of September 2013 08:21:31 AM

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

if it wasn't liquor it would be something else. People always find something to get hooked on. I find it sad that someone actually manufactured meth to hook people on. My neck of the woods we can't buy spray paint without ID (like we'd be able to stop our kids from going to the garage to huff it???). People always seek an escape from their troubles - heck, I'd like an escape from mine; escaping is so much more preferable than facing them day after day, plodding along through stinky cr*p with no end in sight. Addictive personalities will always seek something to be addicted to. And, don't I escape myself? I sometimes sit for hours banging on my piano annoying the heck outta the kid in the next room, or, like today, I go to every thrift store in town, wandering around escaping from the realities of my "real" life. oh, and I escape blissfully into a hot bath with my computer on some stand-up comic - talk about escaping!!! So... isn't it the method of escape rather than the escaping? I could not live with the effects of the alcohol - my ex-A's escape mechanism.

neshema2 · ~*Service Worker*~

likemyheart wrote:
escaping is so much more preferable than facing them day after day, plodding along through stinky cr*p with no end in sight. Addictive personalities will always seek something to be addicted to. And, don't I escape myself? I sometimes sit for hours banging on my piano annoying the heck outta the kid in the next room, or, like today, I go to every thrift store in town, wandering around escaping from the realities of my "real" life. oh, and I escape blissfully into a hot bath with my computer on some stand-up comic - talk about escaping!!! So... isn't it the method of escape rather than the escaping? I could not live with the effects of the alcohol - my ex-A's escape mechanism.

OH I can so relate to this share....I find escaping preferable than facing this struggle I live with....day after day the same thing....trying to keep myself going...pinching pennies, always negotiating w/this company and that company for a better deal so I can pay my bills.....Oh I am becoming the escaper, myself...it just gets to be too much for me...so I escape via you tube shows......soaking in tub and dreaming of my farm and my horses...burning my candles and focusing on the light and visualizing my deliverance....and I agree w/you "stinky cr*p with no end in sight" me too, I am with ya....feel like I should just "coast" till I go under....don't see any relief, so I create my own relief, playing games on my Iphone.......and oh yea, browsing the thrift shops...not buying stuff I don't need, but browsing the books and stuff just to get away from my hardship....and yea, "escaping from the realities on my real life" which has been so hard of late.........I am with ya....U R NOT alone.....and i wonder too...our "methods" of escape may seem less dangerous, i mean noone got liver failure out of surfing the thrift shops or zoning out on you tube, but it is escape.......I, too, do NOT ever want to indulge in any substance abuse...I hate having to do meds for my ptsd and anxiety, however if I don't take them, I am disabled from the nerve damage I have suffered....but I try to "low dose" as much as I can w/out putting me in suffering......thanks for your open and honest share.....I sooo relate to it.......as I get older, life gets harder, at some point I wont' be able to keep up, unless something comes my way in the way of an opportunity to give me a brighter future......so yea, the ODAT slogan is all I can do......get through today.....just get through today....try to put out good energy......

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I've never pointed a finger to shame alcoholics in my life. I've understood they were sick (my grandmother and great grandmother) since childhood. As a child I just didn't have a name for their illness. I just knew they had one. That has been true in cases with other folks with this disease in my life. So, in my case, I'd have to say no. The alcoholics in my life didn't have people pointing fingers at them for drinking. This applies to the people I've worked among for many years, too. But, I have seen people angry with non-recovering alcoholics for criminal behaviors and refusing to get help. I've also seen folks let people with drinking and drugging problems get away with things that are criminal, too, and feeling sorry for them because they are sick which didn't help either.

-- Edited by grateful2be on Sunday 22nd of September 2013 11:27:58 AM

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

Bettina: "...we love the high." That's the statement that is the source of my wonderings. Why is it that so many people want to get high? Why is being high more valued than simply being who we are in our natural state without mood altering substances? There could be no cartel without a demand for drugs or an Al Capone without a demand for alcohol - both which alter the chemical function of the brain. Again, I don't know the answer, but the question still exists for me. Why is getting high more valued than simply being in our natural state? What is it that we are attempting to escape as LMH suggests? What do we seek?

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

A great quote to begin this thoughtful discussion. Before my feet hit the ground this morning, I was wondering if the consistent us of over the counter children's meds are somehow changing their brain chemistry...are we creating future addicts? As Grateful, I wonder about the original set-ups, and perhaps it is that some people just like to get high. Stuff to ponder....in the meantime, lets soak the world with prayer and grace.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful, I believe we are all seeking the connection to the divine......

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

I know that, for me, I was addicted to cigarettes way back when. I always wondered about the advertising thing. I mean, why advertise booze on TV but not cigarettes? Cigs are HUGE profit making consumables for tobacco companies and these companies have very influential lobbyists in Washington. Just surprised that tobacco companies aren't pushing for that.

What Grateful said in her last post really made me realize how we think, as humans, trying to fix our kids' ailments (or our own ailments). The quick fix is always easiest, right? My son has Tourette's and ADHD and some anxiety issues. I've never medicated him. He's only been on antibiotics twice and once was for strep(I don't mess with strep) and the other time was for pneumonia(another one I don't mess with). Anyway, I homeschool him so that I don't get pressure from the schools to put him on a STIMULANT for his ADHD and then have to put him on a blood pressure med(for his TS tics) because the stimulant will make his tics worse, etc. Anyway, even ibuprofen can tear away at your stomach lining. I have lots of friends who have awful stomach issues in their 40s and 50s now because they overused ibuprofen. Docs tell us: just take ibuprofen every day until the pain subsides, not revealing to us how much damage that medication can cause to our digestive systems.

As for us: I've had my son tested out the wazoo for his stomach issues including IgG and IgE testing, lactose tests at the hospital, he's going to acupuncture now for his tics and ADHD, and we've done tons of testing with the neuropsychologist, etc. I guess I like to figure out the 'whys' and I do that with all aspects of my life, including my AH.

I was able to quit cigarettes because I knew how bad they were for me, because I knew it would influence the men that would choose to date a smoker (I was 22, and on the hunt for a guy, LOL), and mainly because I didn't want to wind up like my dad. I have my dad to thank for my quitting drinking all those years ago, too(even though I have a glass of wine now and then NOW, but I had quit back then), because I didn't want to wind up like him: overweight, apathetic, smoking 2 packs a day and had emphysema, and acting like a fool when he was drunk. I just didn't want that for my life so I made other choices.

My AH told me he was making different choices than his parents did, as they were both alcoholics. Unfortunately, life was pressing in on him and he started drinking after 15 years of sobriety. What made him take that first drink? He claims it was the relief from the stress of his job that caused him to take that first drink. Is that really it? I don't know, but that's why he says he started again, to quell the emotional stress he was under and how he felt that alcohol just gave him a break from dealing with life. It was his escape.

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

I still think that everyone is forgetting the physical part of the addiction, its not so much a psychological problem. Alcoholism is not an emotional weakness. Its a fatal illness. My thinking is if its a fatal illness , why does the alcoholic have to wait to hit bottom.

There should be no blaming it as a charecter flaw , just recognizing it for the disease it is .

We don't carry the genetics. I can have a small glass of wine and not want another. While a person whose liver will not process

alcohol will crave another glass and another. I'ts like an allergy.

The alcoholic or addicts mistake is picking up that first glass thats starts the process in the body.

It's not so much that we understand the disease , but that the alcoholic understand that he has one.

My question is , why are alcoholics blind to their disease. Why are they not educated on their own disease.

Is it because society points the finger at them and makes them feel ashamed of their condition?

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't see that the physical piece is being overlooked....the discussion took some interesting turns. I enjoyed reading the perspectives posted...got me thinking.

likemyheart · ~*Service Worker*~

I think the alcoholic has to hit bottom before he may be willing to admit that it IS a disease. If I went to the doctor and was told I was a diabetic and to do this, this and that to not die from diabetes you bet your life I would do this, this and that. When my father had an odd heart condition and was told, stop eating this, stop doing that, don't walk or exert yourself, eat bananas and take these pills, boy howdy he did what the doctor said because doctors know about these things. With alcohol its different because #1, we aren't doctors, we are wives and friends and family telling the alcoholic he needs to stop drinking and the alcoholic perceives us as trying to take his alcohol away and everybody knows that alcohol leads to good fun times, right? #2, their so-called friends and fellow alcohol consumers are ensuring they don't lose their drinking buddy by telling him he doesn't have a drinking problem, the old ball and chain is just trying to control you, here, I'll buy you a beer and we can drink like real men are supposed to drink. #3, the effects of alcohol are slow to affect the quality of life - let a diabetic keep eating sugars and not taking care of himself and whoops next thing you know he's in the hospital or worse. With alcohol it takes a long time to progress from first drink to liver disease, complete alienation of everyone who ever cared about you and more.

Society makes it seem like you are abnormal if you don't drink!

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm a diabetic and yes I take my insulin and try to eat correctly, but I can tell you Diabetis doesnt even compare to the disease of
alcoholism. Diabetis takes even longer than alcohol to progress, I don't get the comparison.

Whats worse, a diabetic alcoholic.!!!

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

My niece is a diabetic alcoholic, who is also a nurse, and knows everything she should do but does not do it.

She smokes, drinks and does not watch her diet. She is always trying to stop, but is not willing to go to AA to help stop drinking or take any med's to stop smoking.

I believe the predisposition to alcoholism, that is in the Genes, play a huge part in the disease of alcoholism and the reason why people drink and cannot stop. I have heard many alcoholic recall their first drink and the feeling that they .experienced as a result. They say it touched every part of their body and made them feel fantastic and as if they " had come home" I have had many drinks in my day and have never felt like that. This a powerful disease.

Bettina · ~*Service Worker*~

Yes Hotrod, its is and agree. I think Alcoholism is 2nd or third highest death rate. Organ failure.

My Husband who passed recently was also a diabetic.

grateful2be · ~*Service Worker*~

I attended a conference on alcoholism last November. There were multiple speakers. Two keynotes - 1 being Martin Sheen and another man who was an alcoholic/drug addict for much of his life whose first name was Eric (not much help, I know) and is now an interventionist helping other alcoholics. Both shared on their own lives and how treatment made such a difference for both. Eric (unknown - darn) shared how the only thing an alcoholic cares about until treatment is the next drink or fix. The whole time we are talking, the only thing going on in their head is "If you don't have money, a fix, or a drink for me, I have no time for you." Later, a neurologist shared how Antabuse doesn't help recovery and that there are few drugs that really have any affect on alcoholism. That talk therapy has been the most successful treatment for chemical dependency which is different than addiction as science is beginning to show. It has also been determined by brain studies that someone chemically dependent (that includes alcohol and nicotine) has brain patterns that aren't functioning properly. There are also brain receptors that are constantly seeking ways to balance out the dysfunctional patterns and will only respond to those chemicals like alcohol, opiates, nicotine that artificially straighten out the dysfunctional chemistry in the brain. Addictions, according to this expert in the field of brain studies, are not the same as chemical dependencies. They can be stopped by the person using the particular drug ie a good person who has formed a bad habit. Chemically dependent people cannot stop on their own and need help to do that. Unfortunately, according to him, medical science has not been able to come up with much so far that can actually help people with chemical dependencies stop because of the brain chemistry's need to attempt to balance itself out. He also said that depending on the brain chemistry, those of us whose receptors are seeking outside forms of help, will not choose alcohol, opiates, cigarettes, if that is not what the brain requires. We may use them, but we can also stop using them. If we're chemically dependent on those substances, those are the only substances we can't stop whether we want to do that or not without help and thus far, the help is not widespread. It is my hope that one day this will no longer be true. It is also my hope that human beings will learn to live without getting high for reasons that still make no sense to me. (I'm talking about folks who don't struggle with chemical dependencies.)

-- Edited by grateful2be on Monday 23rd of September 2013 07:55:08 AM

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

My husband said that he used to feel a "zing" in the back of the head. I likened it to an instant feeling of euphoria. I do believe that there is a predisposition to becoming an addict, and, I also believe that we are creating addicts that may not have the disposition, however, we are contributing to the reorganization of the brain chemistry AND a psychological dependence at an early age. We do glamorize alcohol. We also have instilled in our society it is preferable to not be in our natural states (we do not even know what our natural states are), to disconnect and tune out.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

And I believe there is a spiritual disconnect...the 12 steps can help repair that disconnect in a powerful way.

PP · ~*Service Worker*~

Fascinating! Thanks for this post....such a complex study. Good to have info from people that research the brain.

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