The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
For me, there was a lesson in betrayal -learn to trust myself! I ignored red flags because I didn't want to see reality, as it was. Why? I didn't trust myself to be okay without him.
There is a big difference between betrayal. and my own self-betrayal.
Trust yourself (((my friend)))
-- Edited by glad lee on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 10:27:26 AM
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
(((((Trudy)))))...Lol I just laughed out loud at the alcoholic promise and the reality...What a comedian!! and this is from another recovering alcoholic...LOL...You got the picture right and your priorities and goals and infidelity??? of course. It is what it is!! Okay second stage detaching from "his program". Is the rehab offering after care? If they are call and report the alcoholic behavior which isn't so much the skyping but the delusional mind, body, spirit and emotion acting out he is doing.
You are sooo loved by others othen than the alcoholic...Al-Anon and MIP...hundreds who (((hold))) on to you. You don't need a second opinion sister...the first one nailed it. OMG!! he might be able to make big bucks as a comedian...except the competition is insanely large.
Keep coming back ((((hugs))))
By the way Trudy is behavior is not outside of the disease...this is the disease. The values systems of the alcoholic/addict truely are screwed up for the rest of the world ...and for them "I didn't know this was unacceptable". LOL
-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 12:24:05 PM
-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 12:26:35 PM
I could use some opinions. Since my AH got out of rehab (about 3 weeks ago) we have seperated, he keeps telling me he wants to be the husband I deserve and will show me by his actions how much he loves me and how dedicated he is to our marriage. I come to find out he is on the internet having all kinds of communication with other women, very inappropriate things like Skyping with them (I'm talking sexual stuff), so no physical contact but everything but. During our first couples therapy yesterday I first asked if there was anything he wanted to be honest about in terms of other women and these sites, with a straight face he says NO, so then I pull out the proof, his next reaction is "Hmmmm I don't remember that", then ultimately he says "I didn't think there was anything wrong with it". Huh? When I tell him I consider his actions infidelity (as I think a billion other people would too) and how can he be saying he wants to show me he is changed but doing these disgusting things with these strange skanky women online. Then he goes into the "nothing I will ever do is good enough for you, I will never be good enough". ?? It seems unfair to me for him to behave completely inappropriately and then turn it around as MY problem that no matter what he does isn't good enough. NO it isn't when you are chasing strange women, how does that make me unreasonable?
He then tells the therapist he will get off all forms of internet social networks. THEN after our session is over I find out he is not only not off the sites but has not changed all his accounts from public to PRIVATE. Meaning he is still on these sites but has blocked me from seeing his activity.
I realize the first year of sobriety is one of growth for A's, but this isn't simply emotional unavailability it is out and out cheating. Right? I feel like I need a sanity check here. Does this sound like a man that wants to make amends to me and fix our marriage. It seems there is no honesty in him, he has no morale compass at all. How do we seperate the disease of alcholism with the person is just a jerk?
My thought on reading your post is, he is showing you exactly who he is, whether you decide to accept him that way or not is up to you. Put Tom's slogan to work here: He'll either keep using the sites or not, what will you do?
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
This is strictly my esh and it's not pretty esh, .. actions vs words speak volumes. He wants you available while he does his thing. The bigger question is do you want to be plan B, C, D, or Z. In my case I absoolutely believe I have been plan Z when all else and do I mean all else, everyone else fails he'll get back to me. Thank you no .. he can keep whatever little STD's him and his "friends" have shared or not and leave me in health and well being.
My STBAX and I separated under the guise of him working things out and us working things out. He sucked me in for a bit and I thought maybe we could work things out until I realized he never had any intension of stopping the relationship he had been in and it started as an emotional affair and went full bloom into a physical affair. This includes match.com, facebook and so on .. that is NOT where someone goes when they are into fixing and working on a relationship .. it's just not. He's more than welcome to do those things .. I don't have to be a part of it and I'm not.
It was cruel on his part, however I bought it so I have to own that part of the deal. I wanted to believe and not look at the red flags that were presented and I don't know why those flags can be the size of bed spreads and I can still look past them and say ohhhh what a cute hankie! Oi!!
The best thing that happened to me was this board and alanon. When all this came down I was fairly new to the boards around 6 months and thankfully in alanon for a year. I spent many a 330am working through things here on the boards, scrubbing counters, and washing floors. It was not fun. It was productive on many levels for me. Then I realized something I had put my whole life on hold for the big "what if". What if he gets sober, what if we could get back together, what if things were better the next time around .. GAK GAK GAK!! I stopped waiting on the what if and started living the right now. Right now .. that is/was soooo not going to happen on any front. I might have put up with it a tad longer if he wasn't actively drinking however while I type this I think ummm .. probably not. I don't ever want to be someone else's back up plan. I'm nont saying you are this is what I have had to come to terms with and I tend to be as blunt as I need to just to get out of my own denial. So right now .. I'm living my life regardless of what the STBAX does or doesn't do. I can't live in the what if's .. it just doesn't work in my plans of not being someone else's back up plan. Right now .. I am doing things I haven't done in years and boy oh boy do I mean YEARS .. let alone ever!! Right now .. it feels really good too.
The what if's for me is a place of fear .. because if it's not right now then it's why not?
I trust my instincts even when painful because in the long run it saves me a whole lot more pain down the road. If nothing changes then ... nothing is going to change. I also don't have to make a decision this second about anything .. I can pray about it, talk to my sponsor, talk it out with an alanon friend. It is my personal responsibility to myself and knowing what I do and don't want that I will base my own decisions on. Someone else's back up plan while they figure things out .. sooooooo not on the scope of options.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
You are most certainly not being the unreasonable one here. To me it sounds as if he is replacing one addiction with another, and in true addict fashion, trying to make you feel bad about your very normal reaction to his behavior. I agree with everyone else that you have to trust your judgment. In support, nyc
You guys never fail me. Pushka, you are 100% right, he wants the safety of me and the endless support he has gotten from me, but truth is I am an after thought to what he wants, when he wants it (booze, women, whatever). I guess it's just a crappy feeling to walk thru fire for someone and have the repayment be betrayal. I needed the feedback, I know I am not crazy (as he would have me believe) in calling him out and saying ''regardless of your disease this is not acceptable behavior'. Period, no more arguing about whether he is right or I am right or all the reasons "why" he does it. It just isn't acceptable. Turn the page. You all rock (and are my rock)! :)
Jerry F ..you nailed it perfect...theres nothing left to say!! I always say if it walks like duck, quaks like duck it is a duck Trudy...it is exactly as you see it...& as Jerry said Bless you Jerry & thank you Sending you love & support Trudy.
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Icie
"Holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die..."
I am going to share my sister's story with her H here, with her permission. She is married to a guy who uses all those sites (among others) to meet women to fulfill some sort of 'what she likes to call a relationship addiction'. She was never enough for him, he always needed more attention and he sought it out on the web, through watching porn, meeting women on chat apps, and on websites. He'd lie about his age, talk about the job he doesn't actually have. It was insanity and still is.
He is living with his girlfriend now, he finally took all the stuff he did online and found a real live woman to have an affair with. He lost his job, because my sister wasn't there to wake him up for his very good paying job. Then his car blew up because my sister wasn't there to put oil in it. He has told my sister that he doesn't know what he wants. Basically he wants the best of both worlds. He wants his family and still wants to live with them, but he doesn't want to give up the websites nor his girlfriend(who is currently paying for everything for him and giving him a free place to live).
As you said above: Turn the page. My sister had to be forced to come out of denial, she refused to see what her H was doing to her. It took him to have a physical affair and actually to LEAVE HER before she recognized what a snake he really is. You have a great support system here. I agree with everyone here who says: trust yourself. Trust what you see, not what you hear. Keep coming back, we're here for you!
Many As stitch addictions when they are trying to stay sober - they need something to obsess on so they don't have to feel the feelings that come with sobriety. Some switch to drugs, some to porn sites, some become workalcoholics, some choose hard core religion, but some focus all their attention on working their program...just my observation.
The only thing I would gently add, is that doing all this legwork to "prove" (to him, to his counsellor, and perhaps to yourself) is keeping your focus squarely on him, and his disease - rather than putting all that effort and energy into the one person you CAN do something about - yourself. Is he still sick? Sure sounds like it..... Is he consistent?? Nope, doesn't appear to be aligned with his own recovery.....
Soooo, the big question - does enmeshing yourself in all the stuff he is (or isn't) doing do you any good, and does it help you find your serenity??
I am not going to answer that, cuz the honest truth is - I don't know.... I DO believe, however, that we need to find our balance, and find & do things that make us happy, serene, and at peace with the world....
I tried to 'rush' my decision, as I wanted to know everything, so I could make the right (stay vs leave) decision right then and there.... My reality, is I needed to be in a better emotional head-space to make that life-changing decision, and it wasn't until I fully accepted MY recovery, and stopped focussing on my ex-AW's - that I began to get healthy enough to make some of those bigger, life altering choices...
Take care
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
SHOW ME DON'T TELL ME. DON'T EVEN TELL ME YOU'RE GOING TO SHOW ME. JUST SHOW ME.
This has become my personal mantra. If I had a dollar for every broken promise, every line of BS, I would live in a mansion on Lake Michigan. At this point, the words go in one ear and out the other. I look at the actions, and only the actions, to determine where my AH is psychologically. I trust my gut, and I try very, very hard not to spend hours trying to analyze WHY my AH does what he does. It is an extremely difficult change for me. So many old cliches apply to an alcoholic, the biggest one being "Actions Speak Louder Than Words." Were I in your shoes, I would be equally upset. So no, I do not think you are being unreasonable, and I think you are EXACTLY right when you surmise that his reaction was a way for him to once again push responsibility onto you ("I'm not good enough for you and I never will be" as opposed to "I'm struggling and trying to be a better person"). My experience with my AH has been that there is zero accountability for anything anymore. My AH won't hold himself accountable, and I'm done trying to do it for him. I am trying to only be accountable to myself, for myself. And that involves acknowledging the damaging behavior, the betrayals, the lies (which I know are true, despite his attempts to convince me I am crazy, or that it's all my fault) and deciding whether/when to move on with my life. Because he has made it crystal clear that he will not be changing, despite how many times he SAYS he will change.
Talk is cheap.
(sorry...can you tell I'm having a "punch someone in the face" kind of day? I don't mean to be overly negative or harsh.)
You are right on action speaks much louder than words...Spouses tend to hear only what their alcoholic say & pay no attention to their action or behavior.....Alcoholic pay no attention to what we say but do pay attention to our actions.
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Icie
"Holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die..."
Looking at porn is one thing, spending hours looking at porn is another thing, actually skyping and pretending to be single on dating and sex sites is yet another thing. All 3 of those things vary in severity down a continuum of sexual impulsivity and infidelity.
It's a related, but separate issue from his alcoholism. Not all alcoholics behave like that....but it's not uncommon either. Furthermore, some people act like that without being alcoholics. It's another thing that factors into your decisions but I wouldn't lump it into his disease of alcoholism and say "that's just part of his sickness." It's a separate but related behavior.
Agreeing with Tom about this now needing to become more about you. You know he's been very sick. You know he's acted with poor moral judgment. It wont be surprising if he continues, despite what comes from his mouth. What will you do? That is to figure out in alanon.
All this advice is so good and so right on the mark. Thank you all, your words refocus me, keep me uplifted and strong in the knowledge that I know what I know, the question is what am I going to do with myself now? I had an appointment with my therapist last night, will be doing my thing today on these boards and will be going to a f2f this week. I need to put the brakes on the insanity of him and find my calm. You are all the best!!
You know I think the ex A both wanted the relationship we had and knew he was destroying it at the same time. I do genuinely believe there were points where he did want to be in a relationship and have common goals. The problem was that his obsession with alcoholism took precedence over everything. I absolutely think that the first years of "sobriety" are a tricky encounter. The ex A would promise me the world and then decimate it. Then he would accuse me of being the one who wasn't comitted to our relationship. At one point he accused me of loving our dogs more than him. This was after I had to take his dog to care for it after he had left it for 3 days without food or water!!!
For me the issue has always been what to expect around an alcoholic/addict. I know I currently know some. I don't really take anything they say seriously. If they profess they are on to a really great job (that never materialises) or a settlement that also never materialises I just let it go. I am constantly bemused that they are absolutely believeable. All kinds of people have told me that a certain alcoholic is about to go back to work (he has said that for 18 months now). You are not alone in being in a quandry they are indeed great at convincing others.
The question is what do you do to take care of yourself. I spent a lot of time checking up on an alcoholic I knew where it sent me to a place of incredible resentment. I got to a place where I could stop. I also got to a place where I could resist the demands, the convincing and the manipulation without being in a state of rage to do it. I do think that is an incredibly difficult place to get to but it is possible. I know I always believed in every relationship I was in that couples therapy didn't help much but it did it helped me to see that I wasn't in a relationship that was working and I didn't know how to cope. I stopped allowing the therapist to be the guru and me the follower. I got to follow my own path. No one expects anyone to exit a relationship straight away but there are paths to do it where you aren't convulsed in pain all the time. One of them is to take time completely away and focus on yourself, rather a difficult undertaking when you are out to catch someone out.
My AH does that.. I honestly think that for recovering AH it is less about sex and more about portraying a fantasy life that places them in more of a position of control. With my AH, I think he feels nothing is in his control.. I feel with me, my husband doesn't feel at ease because I know all his dirty lil secrets and who he is not who he'd like to be. Maybe he can't feel fresh with me. IDK, just speculating. But I caught mine too and when I confronted him, something to that effect came out. Plus I also think my AH is substituting one addiction for another.
