The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
He made the choice to stop into the liquor store. He made the choice to say to himself, "I'll have just one." He made the choice to ignore my pleas that he stop the process of killing himself and destroying our relationship. The choice was his and he chose the booze and the pills. I believe that to blame it all on a "disease" is a cop out for the alcoholic, who, once again wins because it's not his fault. And, I become annoyed at those who say it's the "disease" talking. I believe my A says exactly what is on his mind when he is drunk; says what he hasn't the cojones to say sober, but when he is drunk I hear what he truly believes; and it's not pleasant. I can hear all the reasons why alcoholism is a disease 'til the proverbial cows come home, but ... Cancer is a disease. Arteriosclerosis is a disease. Tuberculosis is a disease. Diabetes is a disease. Taking the family car to the liquor store, stuffing a bottle into a bag and drinking the bottle dry before he gets home is not a disease. It's an addiction. Just as surely as smoking is an addiction. When an alcoholic, or one who loves an alcoholic, admits that he/she is "powerless" over the disease, doesn't that mean, "There's nothing I can do about it. Hell, I may as well go have another drink"? There IS something that can be done about it. Just, for God's sake quit! Cold turkey like one lays down a pack of cigarettes, never again to pick up another pack. Like one goes on a well-balanced low calorie diet and takes off 100 lbs.
I am not getting it folks. I dearly love you all, but I am not getting it. Furthermore, I am afraid I never will. Before one of you takes a notion to remove this post, please, please allow responses. Maybe someone will say something I haven't already heard that will ring the bell of understanding. Just maybe.
Diva
-- Edited by Diva on Sunday 7th of October 2012 04:35:57 PM
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I agree with much of what you have said. I do not separate the alcoholic and what is said by them as coming from a strange "other"than the person's true being. I too find what is said during a drunken outburst is a dark part of the person's true being.
I had given up trying to" understand" and trusted what Saint Augusine suggest:
"Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."
That works for me
-- Edited by hotrod on Sunday 7th of October 2012 05:48:24 PM
Sry Diva, im new here and i dont have the wisdom and experience everyone else here does. I cant say your wrong or right. Honestly dont know. All i can say is my AW was sober 15 min ago when she left to go to a AA meeting. She had been jittery and anxious for the last two hours. I asked her what was wrong and she told me with tears in her eyes "I just wanna 'xxxx' drink" i didnt know what to do. So we talked about all the reasons not to. She said I know I know!!! I know why i shouldnt drink tell me why I WANT to drink so bad right now. I didnt have an answer. I had to leave. I was focused on her problems not mine and i was loosing control trying to help her. I guess the point that im getting to is addiction/disease/desire/weakness??? Does it really matter? U gotta take care of U! First and foremost. It doesnt matter what they need! What do you need? Can you get it living with AH? I finally found that right now I can. I found it here and i keep comming back reading posts and reading the book. Not for my AW (why i came here) but for me now. I dont care anymore why she drinks! That alone has eased my mind and soul more than anything else. Ramble ramble sry i wish you the best "LET GO AND LET GOD"
-- Edited by canadianguy on Monday 8th of October 2012 12:02:40 AM
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IF YOU ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS DONE, YOU WILL ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS GOT
((((Diva)))) as long as you accept it as you accept it you will keep getting what you are getting. You've struggled sooo long with this. I did also until I finally surrendered my opposition. I have never been able to figure it out without the help of the fellowships, experiences, NIH, AMA, College, meetings, sponsors and all the other help I've had the opportunity to grab on to and use over the journey. MIP plays a big big part in my acceptance as you do also because I get to revisit what it was like for me then when I tried to rationalize what isn't rational. You've gotten close many times. I'm in support for you...and your husband and your alcoholic. So is HP and the board. Keep coming back. ((((hugs))))
I don't think you have to excuse it at all. Classifying it as a disease just explains why they're doing these crazy things. They have a genetic predisposition to crave alcohol, and then they make the choice to give in to it. Nobody in their right mind would sign up for the chaos, loss, and ruin that alcoholism brings. But alcohol distorts their thinking, and they stay with the alcohol despite the chaos. And frequently the insanity is spread to everyone around, and we stay with them despite the chaos. Why do we do that? For pretty much the same reasons they stick with the alcohol. It feels too hard to quit.
But you don't have to have compassion for the disease. That's best cultivated from a distance, not when you're in the thick of the insanity. Protecting yourself is the most important thing. You are fully entitled to be furious. Who wouldn't be? I guess the question is: what to do with that fury? What decision to make next?
Active alcoholics don't usually say they have a disease. Alcoholics in recovery do that to understand how sick we were and are and how we need an ongoing program to live a healthy life. You feel angry about the disease concept as it applies to someone in denial who doesn't acknowledge or care they have a disease. I have not had a drink in 4 years. By your logic, Im cured since I never had a disease to begin with. I can stop going to meetings to right? Or does part of you see that would be unwise because perhaps I am an alcoholic even though I don't drink now? If you acknowledge that, then you also must admit it's a disease.
I doubt you have a problem with me saying I have the disease of alcoholism because I'm sober. You have a problem with active alcoholic behaviors, not the disease itself.
You said why not just stop? Do you know how many times I tried that and failed? It is a cunning, baffling, and powerful disease and only after I understood hat, surrendered and went to AA, did I achieve lasting sobriety.
When I first came here to this board, I had a similar reaction to some of you. I thought "wtf is wrong with these folks?! Just leave...move on!" I know now it's not that simple. I have compassion and I see each of you as whole people and not a set of frustrating enabling and codependent behaviors. Probably you'd benefit from the AA board like I did here. Even though I do qualify to be here, I had to learn a lot from you guys about how challenging your situations were. I left my ex-A with no alanon. I figured it should not be so had. I come to realize it is that hard and it wasn't as easy for me as I thought either.
Most alanoners get upset with being chastized for "not just leaving." The people who say that do not walk in the alanoners shoes. Nor do you walk in the alcoholic's...Be glad you do
Diva, my A is very similar to yours it sounds... the reason for our separation right now was the many explosive fights over the "I can stop at 2 beers" argument... he never could. When I would comment on how much he was drinking I'd get "I'm fine" and my response was always "yeah but for how much longer?". It's unfair to have to live in a constant state of anxiety about what they might do... My separation is fairly fresh but over the course of our relationship I have way too many stories to have stood by for. I too believe that what they say when they are drunk does have some truth about how they really feel. I had thought my A quit drinking because he at one point had admitted it was a problem.. that is gone now. He had been sneaking for God knows how long and now he wants it all out in the open. I asked him if he has a problem and he said he didn't know, but not gonna stop, and we need to separate because I stress him out because I have a problem with him drinking. UGH!!!!! I wish I could understand this behavior and find the man I fell in love with...
Be glad you don't have the disease of alcoholism. You probably wont die alone of cirrhosis or pancreatitis ten or twenty years before your time . Having the disease is not much of a cop out cuz it is a horrible experience. Alcoholics don't live to hurt others. They are broken trainwrecks of a person and they inflict casualties because of that. Yes..they need to be responsible and that is why we make amends in AA. Do judges let us off crimes if we say we have the disease of alcoholism? No. So it's not like being alcoholic gives us a free pass to be immoral jerks. Perhaps more research into the actual stories of alcoholics instead of just focusing on the suffering you endured from yours...and don't think I don't empathize cuz I do.
I think it's easier for me to get it because I have a child with mental illness. No not ADHD or some version of new things going around. Real, difficult and "insane". Just last week the psych treating him while he lives with his great aunt made the comment "he may be a child who has to be in an institution, it's something we have to consider".
Did my son deliberately jump off my roof onto my car? Yes. Does a sane, well person do this because they don't want to do their homework? No. Did my son run off in downtown San Diego because he was asked to eat something he didn't want to? Yes. Did he know he was doing this? Yes. Did my son write with a permanent marker "you're a d**k (brother's name)" on his bedroom door because they were in an argument? Yes. Did he do it deliberately? Yes. Did he hide on the school roof to avoid detention once? Yes. This is just like a drop in the bucket of things my son has done that has made EVERY adult near him say "what are you thinking?".
My son has a disease. A disease of the brain, they can see the difference in brain scans with people who have mental illness. But he KNOWS what he is doing and after the fact he can clearly and easily articulate not only what he did wrong but what other options he had. His IQ is somewhere near 140, so he's not retarded and just engaging in crazy antics because he doesn't know better.
Every emotionally disturbed teacher has not been able to get through to him. And it's because 99% of kids in ED classes are not mentally ill in the nature my son is. They have behavioral issue but my son is actually very well behaved. Until his illness acts up. Then he stops being able to think and begins to react. He doesn't care who he hurts, even himself. He doesn't care what damage he causes. He doesn't care about anyone else's feelings. He pre-determines his actions even. I can't explain how in control he looks when he does this stuff.
Anyway diseases are not just of the body. They are of the mind as well and I believe that is what alcoholics have.
I certainly understand your frustration. I spent countless hours trying to figure our why they continue to drink, too, and not just quit. I finally accepted that I'll most likely never understand. Nowadays, it doesn't matter to me what this condition is called - an addiction - a disease. All I know from observing my ex-husband is that this condition is powerful, and, yes, baffling. So I don't focus on what I don't understand. It drove me nuts!
What gives me peace is my strong belief (I wish I could say "knowing") that I'll be given answers when I'm prepared for them and no sooner. The more I practice this belief, it seems things are revealed to me more and more.
What I do focus on is what is in my control ~ my actions ~ my responses ~ my thoughts, etc. I gave up wanting people, including my ex, to act according to my desires. It might sound a little hairy-fairy, but, I'll say it: I've discovered that I'm as happy as I allow myself to be, regardless of what others around me are doing.
Practice, practice, and more practice . . . The Serenity Prayer. Some days that's all I could do is recite that prayer so I wouldn't think of others things.
Wishing you a peaceful heart :)
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You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
My exAH has a an addiction and I look at it like my new bf has diabetes both were brought on by very bad choices and are now out of control health wise. Both diabetes and alcoholism lead to death if not managed and that takes discipline and usually outside help. I used to take care of a guy who was a diabetic and he had 4 amputations before he finally ate according to what his dietician had prescribed and he is still alive and well last I heard. My exAH continues to drink and is getting sicker in mind and body each day he continues on this course which will lead to other diseases and ultimate death. I sometimes worry about my bf who is diabetic and I see what he eats and notice throughout the whole day he doesn't check his blood sugar or eat healthy. It is worrisome and I see the relation since his diabetes came on with weight gain. I can see how they are very similar diseases, but yes they have differences. I don't give either of them a free pass and try to explain they have to be accountable for how they take care of themselves, but yes I am dettached and am not taking this on, it is a full time job taking care of me and my kids in my life. I am sending you love and support!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
I know for me when I try and rationalize an irrational situation that's what I have done for a long long time with the disease of alcoholism/addiction. I'm never going to rationalize with an addict. They don't think the way I do. I had to stop looking at it as a physical disease and for me swallowing the mental disease is much easier for me to handle. My STBAX if he was not in active drinking/or active drunk thinking he wouldn't be doing what he is doing. He would not be taking his children on his visitation nights and leaving them for 30 min out of a 4 hour visitation to "go for a bike ride" one my son asked if he could go on and was told NO YOU didn't bring your bike .... he's 8 .. it's not his job to remember to bring his bike to his dad's house. Better yet .. why doesn't he have a bike at his dad's house? That was my question .. lol .. however .. again .. he doesn't think the way I do. Why couldn't he walk with him? Well .. because the disease wants what the disease wants. Whatever fix it was .. he found a way to get it. How can either of my kids, myself rationalize with him and make him think the way we do .. why would a dad do that to their kids? For me that's not mentally right in the head and that's how I can wrap my brain around the idea that it's a disease. I also see that initial first drink as a choice, every day I can make a different choice to live my own life differently. If I keep doing what I'm doing .. I will get what I've gotten .. nothing changes .. nothing changes.
Does that excuse that behavior? Not for me it doesn't and the kids and myself have let him know when he goes over a boundary. He may do it again at least he knows in the moment how the kids and I feel. I have a right to feel all of the feelings that go through me as far as the anger, rage, disappointment, sadness, all of that during those kinds of visitations for the kids to have to deal with it. I like what Mattie said about what do I choose to do with those feelings .. they aren't going to change anyone. I feel awful after that kind of high, it drops me to a very big low. I change during those times of having contact with him and I don't like it .. that is my disease of the affects of alcoholism in my life. When I continue to choose to try to fix, manage and control I let go of me and who I know I am and who I want to be. The only person that hurts is me. It doesn't change the A in my life.
Betty said letting go of the need to understand .. that is pretty big .. when I can do that I feel so much better about myself. I feel so much lighter because I am powerless over the disease of alcoholism. I can't rationalize with something that is totally irrational.
That's why Alanon works for me .. it takes the focus off of the alcoholic and puts it back on me so I stop trying to do the things that in the long run hurt me.
Keep coming back,
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
No answers here. My AHSober always said that the alcoholic will take himself and everyone else down with him. Well, he has succeeded in taken our 30 year marriage, our family, himself, our finances, and life as we knew it down. I am in recovery and don't want to go down with him.
It was important for the Al-Anon fellowship and the literature to mention and keep mentioning to me "Learn as much as you can about this disease of alcoholism" because what I learned would drag me away for my own non-working thinking. I came to understand that I didn't know anything about the disease and that I didn't know that I didn't know and so I learned to sit down and listen with an open mind and with out the natural opposition I had at that time to anything different than what I opinioned. I wouldn't let go of my perceptions and so I was locked up and neither my alcoholic/addict or I would escape the insanity of what was going on as described by my own thinking. My early thoughts was that she was a bitch and she was doing what she was doing to hurt me on purpose. After I first heard that Alcoholism...in part...is a compulsion of the mind and an addiction and the alcoholic has lost the ability to choose when they drink or not my reaction was complete oppositional defiant reaction. I was judging the alcoholic and not the alcoholism. It was her choice I believed and had no room for other explanation. Later on I came to the awareness of choice under the influence and choice without the influence and watch as the outcomes differed. Under the influence doesn't only mean while drinking. The alcoholic can be under the influence of the addiction and after having no consumption of alcohol for a while. It is a disease of the mind...body...spirit and...emotions. I've seen my alcoholic/addict wife grab at and secure a free glass of wine after being told that "it isn't anyone's" with two hands at such speed and accuity that it compared to any reactive behavior I've ever seen. She reached out, grabbed it and started drinking (gulping) the drink with abandon. How great a need must there be for that to happen without thought. Compulsion along side of progressive deterioration. The mind says "I want a drink" as Rellik relates while the awareness says "and its killing me". Often times both happen at the same time and the compusion/need to drink wins out when a different program of awareness is absent.
I've experienced alcohol overdose three times during my drinking career. Why not just once? It happens for many many reasons because the disease has many many factions and in order to understand in part it might be helpful to attend open AA meetings to get it from the alcoholic them selves. It might be helpful to attend college or higher education of any sort. Here at MIP we get to listen to the stories and experiences of many many others spouses, family, friends and associates of alcoholics and we get to look at the simularities in our stories...not the differences. Alcoholism is thousands of years older than the life of the Christ...It's been around 5-6 thousand years...how do I out think that or justify it or come to understand the why she did what she did?
I never thought my ex-alcoholic/addict spouse would out live the disease. I was sure she would die. Didn't I have the experience of finding her in the county hospital listed as a Jane Doe after she had been missing for 72 hours? Why couldn't she just drink properly. Like Relliks wife...my wife didn't know either and neither did I...I nod to the similarities in our experiences...those I understand completely. My spouse didn't die...she got sober in a way that I have never heard from any other recovering alcoholic/addict and she became my metaphor for humility and commitment to change. My spouse turned herself into a large re-hab, one I would find myself doing therapy later on. (I guess you can say we both went to rehab...LOL). The morning she was to start the program her leader walked into her room to prepare her for the process and found my ex-spouse sitting on the edge of her hospital bed with a paper bag over her head and after he asked why she was doing that she returned, "I have come to learn that if I do not allow myself to be blindly led thru recovery I will not survive". She wore that bag over her head night and day for two weeks. She came to understand what few of us come easily to understand with total surrender...she had no "why" questions left. I am grateful to my Higher Power for being allowed to experience that event...had I the courage to use a paper bag it would not have taken me so long to "get it".
Alcoholism caused dis-ease in my life from birth. It tilted and warped both sides of my family and myself...all at the same time. I defer to all other experiences on the subject...their stories are mine. I'm not so different after all. (((((Diva)))))
We are powerless over their drinking. Same as you are over a smoker or an over eater. There are so many things out of our control. "and there's nothing we can do."
Oh, but thats not true, you do have options, you can choose to shut the door and move on. or we can accept the drinking and live with it or we can choose to live in separate homes and only agree to see eachother when the A is sober, there are a lot of creative ways you can chose to live with the problem or chose to not live with the problem. But we cant just will it away to fit our life , we must respect the Alcoholic's choice.
one of my biggest problems with the "disease model" of addiction is that it seemingly absolves the A of all responsibility...
but...there is a different way to think about it...
many diseases can be treated...and it's the person's choice to enter treatment or not...as with untreated diabetes, or untreated cancer...the disease will progress, and the person will die..that is where the model holds true for me.
I tire of "poor him, he has a disease, and can't be held responsible" -- to that I say BS. He can choose to get better. If not, he chooses the consequences. My exA is alone...at 55 living with his sister...no job...no nothing...still letting others carry him. It's ridiculous. The fact that it makes me angry does not mean somehow, that I am not "in recovery" -- it's a natural reaction to be ticked at irresponsibility.
I think it's okay to be angry with their choices...as long as we know that no matter what we do, we can't control it, cure it and didn't cause it....and we don't let that anger do US in. we can't get stuck in that headspace because it will only eat US up...but it's absolutely okay to acknoweldge that anger. IMHO.
I find myself echoing Bettina - you can choose to stay or go and that is what delving into the world of Al-anon did for me. Upon identifying the biggest problem between my ex and I (alcohol), I said, AA or divorce. he tried AA, well, says he did, but probably won't be ready to face that until somewhere down the road when he has exhausted every person available to use. Anyway, me, identifying the problem showed me the path to solution and when I took the path and he chose not to, then the decision to divorce, though painful, was the only choice there was to make.
There is nothing we can do to make them do anthing; my ex lives in squalor bumming cigarette and beer money and there is nothing I can do.
However, my ex-a's anti-social behavior has little to do with alcohollism, may be part of what drives him to drink - and the stuff that comes out of his mouth isn't the alcohol's fault. But it doesn't mean i have to live with it. He still blames me for divorcing him, forcing divorce down his throat are his words but he left me no real choice, either live with this unacceptable behavior or don't and i chose don't! What I have nothing to do with is his grown up man choice to drink. I believe as you do that somewhere they are choosing the addiction over everything else; I also have come to understand that, at least for my ex - it was like he did everything he could to prove to me that he was worthless and throw him out. Almost like his father had convinced him long ago that he was worthless and no one could possibly really love him. So the harder I tried to prove my love, the more atrocious his behavior got until I had no choice but to get away, proving to him that he is worthless and unlovable.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I agree with you about not letting the anger eat us up. We cannot live appropriately if we lived in anger most of the time.
Your X is being taken care of by a bunch of enablers. Thats not the alcoholics fault. By respecting the alcholics choices, I also meant he would have to respect mine too.
How long can one live in anger??? There are some that hold onto it for a long time, years.
Our life is about letting go of things we have no control over, alcholics included.
Here is what I am thinking. I don't think it matters whether or not you believe it's a disease. I think acceptance does not mean approval, and if you want serenity for yourself, perhaps you might work on acceptance of his problem, whatever you call it. Does that make sense?
i wish you the best "LET GO AND LET GOD"