need advice on dating a man in recovery - Al-Anon Family Group

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

need advice on dating a man in recovery

teachmath · Veteran Member

...so how can and will you modify your behaviors this time with the experiences you have without letting your compulsions to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results cause you to re-experience insanity?

Much of what you stated at the beginning of your response has been said to me by my bf. He is working very hard and I tell him that all the day. I am so proud of all he is achieved so far.
I have modified my behaviors tremendously to accomodate my bf's personality. With anyone else, I would have exited the relationship by the 3rd date. But he has explained his personality and traits so well, and I have educated myself. I know he is in love with me and wants it to work. He just doesn't have the tools to listen and work out minor issues all the time.
Our relationship is not insane, its healthy, sweet and normal. We have a lot of fun together doing day to day things or going out. It's his oversized ego that trips us up and trying to work with that is ridiculously challenging. As a career educator, I am very good at reading people and listening, but he struggles with this even though I expect just a little in this regard.
We are talking later, in person, and I do have some proposals that I hope will help us. I know that both of us want to work this out, and despite the fact that it is ill advised to get into a relationship so early, it happened and we are very much in love.
He is equally frustrated and sickened when he hurts me. I see that as so hopeful for both of us. He has been there for me through so much - huge health issues, family bs and the birth of my first grandchild. We want this to work but we both need a little guidance.
I have been super patient and hopeful that all those wonderful traits will dominate and the difficult ones will lessen. He tells me he is trying, and I do believe him.
Fingers crossed!

-- Edited by teachmath on Sunday 17th of June 2012 01:56:23 PM

teachmath · Veteran Member

I met my bf when he was in recovery, about 2 months or so. He did not tell me that he was a recovering alcoholic, or that he was only a few months into, until we had already made a connection. We are both over 50, he is divorcing and I am divorced over 15 years. I was married to an abusive man, and dealt with it. I have been in a few long term relationships, but have not met anyone I felt right with. It did not take long for my bf and I to fall for each other.

Unfortunately, we do have some problems, and they have become very big. I have done massive reading about AA, as well as listening to him and hearing about his life and his personality. He can be very honest in this regard. However, he is hypercritical of me, and sometimes of others. He frequently makes comparisons to other women and they make me feel inadequate. But probably our biggest issue is his GIANT ego. No matter what, he must be front and center stage. Normally, I just let it go because I understand it is who he is. But once in a while, I need to be that person because of things happening in my life. On those occassions, he listens very briefly, and then makes it about him. This hurts my feelings and I tell him so. When I try to get my point across, he doesn't listen to me and then argues and supports his behavior - basically negates my hurt feelings. His overwhelming selfish behavior is doing in our relationship, despite my support and encouragement of his progress. It's just always, always, always about him.

Now, for the 5th or 6th time, he has broken off our relationship in a huff. He just won't put in the work to make us both happy and to improve himself. He acknowledges how self centered he is, but when it is pointed out by me, he gets defensive and makes it into a fight. No matter what, I just can't get him to actually hear my words.

On top of that, we are both job seekers, victims of our economy. I am long off unemployment, and have worked in some part time capacity since losing my full time teaching job 3 years ago. I will take any respectable job to get the bills paid. He is nearly done with with his unemployment, and is now starting to crank up his search.

His selfishness spills into my need to do job searches and get to work on time. He always needs me, despite my telling him that I am on tight time and need to get moving. Like a petulant child, tugging on his mothers arm, he is always needing me when I have committments.

On the flipside, I cannot speak until he is finished, I cannot interrupt him or let him know what I need because he always comes first. There is a clear double standard here where the rules don't apply to him, but do apply to me. Frankly, he can be downright rude at times.

I know all of this sounds negative, but there are positives to our relationship. This is simply an issue that rears its ugly head, sometimes often, sometimes infrequently. But, when it does happen, and my feelings are hurt, he can't and won't acknowledge what he has done.

I am seeking thoughts on where this can or cannot go for us. Will he always be this selfish, self-centered and egotistical? Or will he start to recognize my feelings and hear me out without it becoming a huge fight?

Being in a relationship with such a difficult man is a challenge and I question if it is worth it. Is this who he is now and forever?

Frustrated teacher!

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome, Teachmath. He may not be in this state forever -- but he may. Waiting for someone to change is always a gamble. He appears to be working on himself in AA, but is he working on his ego and his temper and judgmentalism specifically? It makes a difference whether someone says, "I know I blow up from time to time and that it's harmful -- I'm working on it and here's what I'm trying now" (and you see that he is indeed trying), vs. "You're trying to control me! I am who I am and I don't need you criticizing me!" etc.

You might look at the thread on "In love with a Man in Recovery" near the bottom of the page on this Board -- it sounds as if the issues are very similar.

If I had it to do all over again, I think I'd protect myself from people who can't treat me well now, but who I'm hoping will treat me well later. That kind of treatment takes a toll we don't even realize until later.

I hope you'll keep coming back.

teachmath · Veteran Member

Being detached is impossible at this point in our relationship. Sometimes he responds positively when he has hurt me, but not always. It's not something I bring up often, only when I am very concerned about his actions.

I don't expect him to change, I expect him to grow and to grow up. Part of the process of growing up is listening to the needs of others.

I am love him very much and the good far outweighs the negative, but we need balance in our relationship in order for it to succeed. It is his need to listen and respond appropriately that will make that happen.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Teachmath...You've got alot of information regarding alcoholism and the alcoholic. Book learning, listening to an actual alcoholic and getting the experience from real realtionship. You have your experiences from the past (abuse is abuse regardless of who perpetrates) and it hurts intentional or unintentional. Enablers (one description of the "other" participant in an addictive realationship) work so hard at getting a dysfunctional condition functional actually make the other person and the relationship the most valuable and necessary object of their life focus...that is compulsion and addiction...just like you read about alcohol and the alcoholic. What we learn in recovery, if we choose to stay inside of the dysfunctional relationship and want to maintain any sort of sanity, serenity and balance is to choose a "Higher Power" a power greater than the alcoholic or alcoholism or our delusional sense of power and control. Without a power greater than all other people, places and things you give the power and control over your thoughts, feelings, spirit and physical to the "others" that includes the alcoholic regardless of what state of recovery they are in or are not it. That is called trusting however what my sponsorship taught me was "don't trust beyond what can be received because of how you keep pressing to get what you cannot". Its the squeezing blood out of a turnip metaphor.

You sound like you can see the picture of you situation clearly. You've been around the block several times. Your experience is real and valuable...so how can and will you modify your behaviors this time with the experiences you have without letting your compulsions to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results cause you to re-experience insanity? This for me is the object of the Al-Anon program.

Its good to have you here. There is a miraculous amount of help and support here that can help you save your sanity minimum and/or life.

Sit down, listen (read), learn, practice, practice, practice. That is how I was taught from birth and then when I got into recovery. Listen to the fellowship and do what they do. If your not going to face to face meetings of the Al-Anon Family Groups in your area (telephone number is in the white pages of your local telephone book) I highly encourage it. Thanks for the trust. In support (((((hugs)))))

teachmath · Veteran Member

Mattie wrote:
Welcome, Teachmath. He may not be in this state forever -- but he may. Waiting for someone to change is always a gamble. He appears to be working on himself in AA, but is he working on his ego and his temper and judgmentalism specifically? It makes a difference whether someone says, "I know I blow up from time to time and that it's harmful -- I'm working on it and here's what I'm trying now" (and you see that he is indeed trying), vs. "You're trying to control me! I am who I am and I don't need you criticizing me!" etc.
He does not have a temper or blow up. He responds like a child and retreats, instead of listening. He does not intend to control me, he is just needy at times.
You might look at the thread on "In love with a Man in Recovery" near the bottom of the page on this Board -- it sounds as if the issues are very similar.
Her issues are totally different from mine as I never lost my life at all. I can and do have a glass of wine in front of him, even went to a party where most people were socially sipping on ONE glass of wine. I have a very full life with multiple activities, friends, family and committments and he NEVER prevents me from doing what I enjoy. I would never date a control freak as that is a trait of abusive men, and he is not one of them.
If I had it to do all over again, I think I'd protect myself from people who can't treat me well now, but who I'm hoping will treat me well later. That kind of treatment takes a toll we don't even realize until later.
He treats me very well, on the whole. But on those occassions when something goes amiss, he just cannot confront it in an adult manner. He just seems to be so overly self absorbed that he cannot handle NOT being front and center. Once in a while, it is about me because of something in my life. I am very selfless, but I like a moment in the spotlight, just like any other human being.

I hope you'll keep coming back.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I hope that my thoughts will be useful and as they say, take what you like and leave the rest. I know as an educator myself, and someone who's done a lot of recovery (but isn't all the way there yet), I'm used to being in the driver's seat and feeling as if I have a perspective on things. One of the things I always did in relationships, even before starting recovery, was to be the pulse-taker of the relationship and the diagnoser and the one who fixed the problems. (And typically I was a lot more motivated to fix them than the person I was with -- he'd talk the talk sometimes, but he didn't always walk the walk. Well, he pretty much never walked the walk.) But all that knowledge and fixing didn't actually get me a good relationship. It was hard for me to figure out why trying the same thing over and over, harder and harder, never worked. (Also that I was drawn in to relationship that I could "fix," or so I thought -- a craving to make it all right, just as I'd wished I could make my relationship with my parents right, when I was a kid.) I was my own marriage counselor for so long. I was taking his inventory daily. I was trying to run both halves of the relationship.

Anyway, you say "I do have some proposals that I hope will help us."

What if you left it to him to ask the necessary questions and to figure out what to do? Not that you shouldn't let him know how you feel and what you need.

Our pattern is typically that we are enablers, trying to do things for them that they should do for themselves. Sometimes -- usually? -- it begins to look like we want to control them.

I always thought, "Breaking up with him is not an option. Living with things this way is unbearable. Therefore my only choice is for him to change." The change would certainly have been growth for him. The only problem was that I wanted it my way and on my timescale. Even that would have been fine if we could ever make that happen. What actually happened is that he did not change, however much I tried, and so I changed for him. I thought I was someone who wouldn't stand for bad treatment, but I certainly did.

What I wish I had done was to give him back his half of the equation, and looked upon it as a learning process -- me learning whether he was capable of rising to a healthy relationship at that point of his life.

Do you have a meeting? There is so much support and wisdom available in meetings. Keep on taking good care of yourself.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

A very good book for you is,"Getting Them Sober," By Toby Rice Drew, volume one. Your eyes will be opened believe me.

Nothing you shared is new. This is the relationship we get with most A's (addicts)

AA recommends no relationships for a year. So this shows he is already not taking his recovery seriously.

His selfishness, his putting you down, his comparing you to others, being needy, not putting you first, shows you he is in no way ready to have a relationship.

The A does what he is doing to bring you down, he wants to see you less worthy than him. As you say, he wants to be the one with the attention, not you. This is a form of control.

What you describe is not a healthy relationship in my book. When we are healthy, assured, love ourselves, we would NEVER put up with even one time, having the partner we love compare us to others, put us down, put themselves before us.

Their disease makes us sick, puts us in denial. It's not your fault at all! If you continue in Al Anon, meetings, come here, research, pm us, ask for what you need, you will get well again.

Of course there are good things about him, a dog who bites still has good qualities too, but is that what you want?

As far as wanting someone to change, all through time we hear of women who want to change their men, we can only change ourselves.

I know what a person is like in real, serious recovery. I also know what they are like when they relapse, and when they are not working their program.

How healthy is a realtionship when he breaks up with who he supposedly loves when he gets to a certain point?

Also to have expectations, saying you expect him to grow up, may not be his goal. He has a right to be who he is,loved just how he is. We all have an innate need to be loved for who we are, warts and all.

You said: I don't expect him to change, I expect him to grow and to grow up. This is expecting him to change.

Also he is the age he started drinking or using other drugs. He could mentally be 15 years old, or 13!!!! If he only has a few months of recovery, believe me he is still a child in sooooo many ways. If we drink away our problems and challanges we do not mature. Dealing with obstacles, fears, grief all of it is how we learn and mature.

We cannot be their counselors or teachers. It does not work. It makes them feel less than. He is who he is, he will grow or not, that is up to him. Also we have no idea of the level of brain damage he may suffer.

People forget his whole body has be compromised for many, many years. A's do not think like us, we cannot put ourselves in their place nor can they put themselves in ours.

We have options.

We learn to use Al Anon skills to be able to stay with our A and make it as pleasant as we can.

We can keep it as is and be miserable.

Or we leave the relationship.

Even an addict who kills people when they drive are so sorry, genuinely sorry, but will drive again. His sharing with you, apologizing is all A symptoms and behaviors HE has to work out for himself.

It's not our job to critique them or tell them how to be.

He has a right to his own path, he has the right to be who he is, not having to be with someone who keeps on him to change what they think is better.

Al Anon can teach us how to look at how we can be better people. How we can stay with those we love and stay out of their business.

We learn never to argue, never to respond to the tin god thing, or the me me me thing. That is how they are. A's have symptoms of being A
even when they are in recovery. They go into recovery to have a map of how to be. Like a map. It does not come natural. Mine had to learn to ask how i was doing when he got home!

He had to learn to be considerate. He worked his program hard. I was spoiled rotten, as he was.

You may not be ready to learn all this and that is very ok!!! We are so glad you are here, we have been where you are. You are so very welcome and we learn from you also.

MIP is a very safe,loving wonderful place. I need to figure it out but I think I am on 11 years now. Gotta ask this one old lady who's been here forever....I am going to get clobbered for that. haha

So please come back, you are really working your program but facing these things.

hugs, and love,debilyn

LeenieBeanie · Senior Member

Welcome, Teachmath. So glad you have found this forum.

The wise sage (Debilyn) has said it all, in a most straightforward, gentle way. And I second Mattie & Jerry: if you continue seeing this man, please get to a face to face Al Anon meeting.

Good luck to you.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

One thought that I've found "sobering" (!) is this: that the early days of a relationship are that wonderful honeymoon period when everything is so fabulous, before both sides begin to wear out their ability to be their best selves. After that period we begin to find out who people really are, flaws and all. If we turn out to have found the right people, they're people with flaws we can live with longterm -- because no one doesn't have any flaws. And that wonderful honeymoon period is something we can look back on with fondness.

In my relationship with my A, there was no real honeymoon period. Right from the beginning I was hoping he would "grow into" the relationship, because it wasn't all there. But that was as good as it was going to get. Because every relationship goes downhill from the initial period. Where it ends up depends on how good it was in the beginning and how far down it goes. Healthy relationships start out great and don't go down too far. They have other things like stability and trust and comfort to keep the flaws from being fatal.

With unhealthy relationships, we start out wishing they'd go up. But instead, like every other relationship, they go down.

Just some thoughts.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear teachmath

I am glad that your relationship is working so very well and that you are able to discuss issues and reach consensus.

I found that being in a long term relationship with a long term recovering alcoholic that alanon continues to be extremely beneficial.

Alanon, being a spiritual program enables me to remember to stay focused on myself, live one day at a time and trust the process.

I suggest that you check out the face to face meetings in your community and attend at least 6 different meetings before deciding if alanon is for you .

Keep coming back here as well You are worth it.

-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 18th of June 2012 09:10:40 AM

teachmath · Veteran Member

Thank you all for your thoughts but to clarify, I never asked him to change to "fit" our relationship. He HAS changed as he has recognized how his disease has impacted his relationships with others. From the beginning of our relationship, I saw that he was self centered and accepted that because the other traits he possessed were so very positive. Our relationship has grown and gotten stronger over time because of the way we are able to talk things through. We are more in love than ever and that is a great relationship. We resolved our issues and realized how easily it could be done.

teachmath · Veteran Member

Just as things started to seem wonderful, my relationship fell apart yet again. I had family visiting for a week, something that is very trying for me emotionally as I am not treated well by any of them. By the time they left, all the hurt feelings of my childhood welled up and I just wanted someone to listen to me and make me feel acceptable without judgement. My bf said he was here for me and that he would listen. But, unfortunately, he judged and belittled my feelings, and for 3 days, he argued, criticized and made life even more miserable. It was the same old routine of somehow making it about him and claiming all these terrible traits about me. I finally asked him what he saw in me that made him love me and find me attractive. It was a tad shocking to hear the things he said, none of them matching what close friends would say. They were nice things, but it felt like he was searching for anything to say, and certainly not the big personality traits that just stand out there. Eventually, he flipped out, attempted to break up in his usual storming out manner, but he did not follow through. Instead, he headed over to be with friends out of state, leaving me in a very upset state.

He has no ability to listen, to show compassion, or to see how the things he says or does hurt my feelings so very much. He can get on a criticizing roll and hit me over and over with my character defects, or just criticize everything around him. All of that negativity is such a downer, and when you are hit with it after being decimated by your family, it makes you feel like a nothing. He just could not hear me and recognize what he was saying and doing. And then, he rationalized every single word of it!

Is this a common trait of an alcoholic? Will he never be able to offer emotional support when something is causing me emotional pain? Will he always make my emotional hurt worse by heaping on more hurt?

He has changed on so many levels, but not in other ways and I wonder how much of it is just who is regardless of the addicition. One of the things that worries me how is unable to see how he dominates the relationship and that the majority of our conversations revolve around him. He continues to claim it is the other way around, but it most definitely is not. In fact, after 7 months, I know so much about his entire life, but he knows next to nothing about mine. When I have pointed this out, he disagrees (of course).

Is this cycle of fighting, getting back together going to continue ad nauseum? Is there ever going to be a time that he can truly listen and see himself through my eyes? Will he always become defensive when I tell him that he has done or said something that hurts my feelings?

I love him, but I cannot continue with these emotionally exhausting fights. I cannot figure out if this is just him or the disease.

Any thoughts on this? And yes, I am now thinking I need to find an al-anon meeting to hear what others say.

Thank you for hearing me out.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear teachmath

I am so sorry that you are in such pain. The questions that you asked have been answered in this recent post by" Namaste".

I believe that k you will find your answers there.

Ponderings...

(Preview/Moderate)

Please keep coming here and sharing and check out the face to face meetings in your community

There is help and hope

teachmath · Veteran Member

Hotrod,

These are the very things he has told me, but it did not answer my questions. Is this the permanent and forever person who is or will he "learn" to have better social graces and improved relationships over time? Perhaps I am expecting too much at this point, but he offered to be there for me. I always give him options to do things and be part of things because of who is. But no matter how hard I try, it is never good enough. He is unable to recognize how our entire relationship revolves around him and his needs, or to appreciate all I do for him.

Because of my past, his critiques hurt more than most would feel. Perhaps he and I are a not a good match becuase of our individual needs. I don't know anymore.

Utterly frustrated! Thankful a girlfriend is coming over tonight to hang out - boy do I ever need that!!

teachmath · Veteran Member

I need help.... yes, again! Just over a week ago I crashed on my bicycle and got very hurt. My bf was with me, and in fact was responsible for the accident because of his wreckless biking. I never blamed him for out but he knows he caused the accident which lead to an ambulance ride for me, 5 hours in the ER, concussion, smashed knee, multiple sprains and incredible bruising and internal bleeding to the right arm and particularly my right hand. Right now, it is unknown if there is still undiagnosed damage because it needs time to shrink to normal size and for me to resume normal activity level. Believe me, it sucks big time because I am super active and either bike, walk or weight train every single day. I spent the first 6 days mostly laying down due to the overwhelming nausea, dizziness and headache caused by the concussion. Unfortunately, he was not as supportive as he should have been during this time and we had 3 or 4 arguments during those days. It always comes back to him and how he needs this, that or the other thing, or someone in AA or a family member needs him and I have to wait. I feel used and unappreciated. And when I suggested he go back to his other place to avoid a big blow out between us, it turned into a big blow out. He managed to accuse me of not being supportive of his needs and insisted he never left my side for the past 6 days and that I complained nonstop. That statement couldn't be further from the truth as he was barely here, and did nothing more than make sure I had dinner every night. It was until day 5 that he fulfilled a simple request for me.

Is this typical behavior and attitude for an alcoholic? Do they have a propensity for altering the truth? Do they run away when they are needed? Do they always get defensive and attempt to flip things around to blame the other person, generally by inventing things that are untrue? Are they ever capable of apologizing and recognizing that other people have feelings and needs too?

His pat answer for all his behaviors is that he is an alcoholic. If I make a request, he insists it is a criticism (when no other person would take it that way). He seems to feel that if you are not an alcoholic, then you have no feelings or needs. This just does not seem typical to me and I am beginning to question how much is just who he is as a person and if he can ever truly be there for me and recognize my needs, and LISTEN to me.

This week has been a very upsetting reality check and I am close to ready to break this off. I am hope someone can enlighten me because I am bullxxxx with him right now.

-- Edited by teachmath on Saturday 21st of July 2012 08:49:46 AM

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 21st of July 2012 08:59:28 AM

teachmath · Veteran Member

Hotrod,

If what you say is the truth, than why would I want to remain with such a callous oaf. If this is who he is and he cannot recognize his behavior toward me on a daily basis, then I am finished. I am not asking him to change but to treat me in the same manner he treats his kids, ex wife, friends and AA buddies. I just don't think he cares about me, and that he is using me.

I have only one expectation: to be treated respectfully and with consideration just as I give to him many times over. I have the same feelings as any other human being, I bleed when hurt and cry when sad and he just doesn't see this.

Perhaps he needs someone to lash out at or he just doesn't love me as he continues to proclaim he does. I just know that observing his compassion toward others, and not receiving it in return makes me question the validity of his feelings for me. When you love someone, you do not treat them like xxxxx.

I cannot understand why anyone would want to date or be in a relationship with such a person. He tells me his sponsor advices him on how to treat me, and that he observes this when he is with his sponsor and his sponsor's wife. Unfortunately, he is not able to treat me that way.

I guess I know what I need to do. This is too much for me and I deserve to be treated well, not sxxxx on and used.

Thanks!

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 21st of July 2012 09:42:03 AM

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

teachmath wrote:
Is this typical behavior and attitude for an alcoholic? Do they have a propensity for altering the truth? Do they run away when they are needed? Do they always get defensive and attempt to flip things around to blame the other person, generally by inventing things that are untrue? Are they ever capable of apologizing and recognizing that other people have feelings and needs too?

His pat answer for all his behaviors is that he is an alcoholic. If I make a request, he insists it is a criticism (when no other person would take it that way). He seems to feel that if you are not an alcoholic, then you have no feelings or needs. This just does not seem typical to me and I am beginning to question how much is just who he is as a person and if he can ever truly be there for me and recognize my needs, and LISTEN to me.

-- Edited by teachmath on Saturday 21st of July 2012 08:49:46 AM

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 21st of July 2012 08:59:28 AM

Dear teachmath

I am so sorry that you have been so badly hurt and that recovery is slow.

I copied a portion of your posting so I could just simply answer "Yes" to your question.

As far as his statement, I find that he is being very up front about his behavior and what he needs. Expecting someone else to change is a complete waste of energy and time. If they tell us and show us," who they are " believe them. It is up to us to recover and learn how to change.---if we want to continue in a relationship

It is also why we in alanon must learn to keep the focus on ourselves, lower our expectations, live and let live and live one day at a time, if we intend to remain in a relationship with a active or recovering.

The good news is that Once we begin this process we find that the tools are universal and applicable to every relationship . They provide us with the ability to love and be compassionate while nurturing ourselves .

I urge you to search out alanon meetings in your community and attend. If you are unable to leave the house, please try to join our on line meetings.

There is help and hope.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.