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I'm having a hard time deciding what is detachment and what is a "free pass." My AH is not in a program but he quit drinking about two weeks ago after I mentioned that I thought he needed to seek help. Since then, I have been reading Al-Anon and codependency literature and doing my very best to focus on me. I haven't said anything about his drinking...neither positive like "way to go, you haven't been drinking" nor negative like "when are you going to start the treatment plan you said you'd do?" But here's the rub...
We have three children. I am a stay-at-home mom for the most part, except when I can pick up days substituting at my boys' school. My AH has a job at Home Depot where he is completely bored and underappreciated (he's a low voltage contractor but there just isn't any work for him in his field right now).
Since AH stopped drinking, he has three activities: sleeping, watching tv with the headphones on, and going to work. Actually, four...making snarky comments about how miserable he is. I have been trying not to "control" him (i.e. abstain from codependence), but the only time I get any help with the kids, the chores, the farm, is when I ask for it. I don't have to harp...just ask. And I haven't been because I'm trying to be good. But doesn't that just feed my sense of complete responsibility? Shouldn't he be expected to do his fair share even if I have to ask? It's not just "his problem" when his behavior affects the amount of work I have.
In addition, I just miss him interacting with us as a family. I want to tell him, "I know you hate your job. I know you are miserable without alcohol. I know you want to check out. But you have a family and a wife and responsibilities. So pull up your big boy britches and do what needs to be done." The anger is just mounting more and more within me as I watch him check out.
I so understand the position you are in and now I don't know if this is alanon or not, however I do feel that you have a right to ask him to participate in the household stuff. Truthfully I find making statements about oh would you please do such and such, or such and such needs to be done it would help me a great deal. The question is are you willing to set boundaries, are you willing to let things go until he gets them done, are you willing to let go of the outcome of the situation. Sometimes that's not so easy to do, if I take on the responsibility of things that my spouse can do then who am I hurting? Truthfully both of us .. because I am allowing him to remain checked out.
Living with someone who is active in the disease is so not easy, it can be done. It is truly not an easy task to learn the balance between what is detachment, what is control, what is acceptable, what is unacceptable. That's the wonderful thing about alanon is that it gives us a guideline that we missed at some point growing up or maybe we lost in living in the disease. I will also share that my AH and I are not living together at this point .. at this point I can't accept the behavior he is doing. It's a hard choice however right now it's the right choice for me.
I recommend if you have C2C or ODAAT read everything about compassion and detachment. There is an index in the back and they will tell you the pages to look up.
Hugs P :)
Keep coming back :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Your anger is understandable. This is not a normal situation. You are right about not talking to him about his drinking. He will do what he wants to do whether that be not drinking or deciding to drink again. If he doesn't go to AA his chances of deciding to drink again is large. But there is nothing you can do about that.
Do you have a "chores" board where you write out your kids' chores? Maybe you could add some of your and his chores to that board to have them out there in writing. Asking him for help with things is not a bad thing. Asking him to do what needs to be done is not a bad thing. Detachment is doing for others what they are capable of doing for themselves. You are allowed to ask for help or remind him that he will be happier if he is busy.
You are in the middle of a transitional time in your marriage and you don't know how it is going to turn out. That is scary. Stay close to your higher power and take care of the boys yourself.
I've got a similar situation around here, except my AH is in a cycle of "cutting back" then ramping back up again, etc etc etc. He also works a job he hates because his construction specialty is dead right now. He also does nothing but work, sleep, watch TV, and complain incessantly.
A couple of weeks ago, when he was in a "cutting back" mode, he started making sarcastic comments about how "great" sobriety is. Most of the time I just ignored him, but the last time he said it I looked at him and said "I know this must be incredibly hard for you. I just want you to know that I'm proud of you."
Of course I knew that it's not real sobriety, and that he would almost certainly start drinking again. But I also knew (and still know) that every little step could be a step toward real recovery. And even though YES, he should just suck it up and be grateful he has a job at all, and gets to be home every night (unlike a year ago, when he had to work 600 miles away for 8 months), that isn't possible for him right now thanks in large part to his disease. Cutting back IS incredibly hard for him. So I try to acknowledge that when I can, without fawning all over him and making it seem like it's totally OK with me that he hasn't washed a dish or done a load of laundry in over a year. It's a hard balance to strike.
MJ, I think the chore chart might make it look more like I'm trying to parent him (not that he doesn't need it right now). I'll have to think about how to present it more as a chart of what we as a family do for each other.
I am committed to this marriage. We've been together for 15 years and through a heck of a lot. I'm not too worried that this will be the end...although I never say never. I think that AH wants our relationship to work and while he may not be interested in working on it at the moment - busy fighting some of his own demons - I'm pretty sure that he'll want to when we reach the other side.
I think I'm going to try to just ask for things in a matter of fact manner. "I need you to get up with me this morning to help get the kids ready for school." "I need your help fixing the fence on the pig pen." "I need you to spend time with me in the evening just talking about life in general." This last one may seem like a stretch, but he knows where it comes from. We had to relearn how to connect after a four year affair of his. He may see it as a responsibility right now, but it still is important for us to do.
I attended the online mtg tonight and it sure helped to hear other struggles. I guess I'm still looking for someone to tell me what to do...but I'm slowly realizing that I have to find my way with Him.
The "Free Pass" statement for me gives me the willys because for me it suggest that there's some kind of entrance gate you have control over or that you're managing. I did this when I was married to the ex alcoholic/addict and it just never ever worked. She was her own person making her own decisions using her own intentions and motivations and aims along with the intitlement. Detachment for me meant partly that I didn't do for her what she could do for herself regardless of how anxious I was about her doing it at all and how. When I learned that body language was the larger part of communications I came to understand that I was always talking at her and she could read me loud and clear. She also read "how" I was saying what I was saying so I couldn't escape getting the "I'm feeling" message across loud and clear either. In detachment I learn how to love unconditionally...the person not the behavior. If the behavior isn't insync with my values I don't participate regardless of who the other person is, still I love the other person unconditionally which I remove myself. What killed me alot of times was getting caught up in judging and I spent too much time getting myself locked into the "you should be who I think you should be" mode rather than accepting the reality of my alcoholic/addict wife. Yes I had to learn how to ask for her participation without expectation other than who she was and what she was suffering from. Sometimes she did "WOW" and other times she went missing and I had to call cops and the hospitals and such to see if she was still in town and alive. I don't think anyone ever gets a "free pass" in alcoholism. It is cunning, powerful and baffling and doesn't have an off switch...thats for me. If your not in the fellowship I can suggest that contacting them and getting to meet with them is what created the miracle of serenity in my life.
Jerry wrote "If the behavior isn't insync with my values I don't participate regardless of who the other person is"
Saving this, Jerry, awesome stuff.
Hickmom- I can really relate to what you wrote. There won't be balance unless you create it. And "balance" might not look like what you think it *should*. I stopped expecting my AH to participate in household stuff. He didn't anyway, and I would either get frustrated with him about it or privately fume to myself. Eventually, I learned to just cheerfully go around him.
If I had a request for him, I would ask once- Sweetheart, your clean clothes are ready to be folded and put away; they're on the bed.
And I would forget about it. If the clean clothes were still on the bed come bedtime, he would have to either deal with them, sleep on them, or toss them to the floor. His clothes, his choice.
I didn't do any chore or household task that I did not want to do. I even quit doing his laundry and I didn't feel guilty about it. One less thing! Because I valued a clean place more than my H did, I did do most of the picking up and cleaning, but it was for *me* and not out of care taking for him. Sometimes I had to look at a mess for a few days, but it was a lot better than being all twisted up inside judging my H for being a no-good, lazy, s.o.b., etc.
You can always use the box method...you know, wherein all his assorted random stuff goes when you're tired of seeing it.
Your household may not be balanced right now with mom and dad sharing duties...but you can certainly lighten your own load and ALLOW him to be an adult and at least take care of himself. I assume since he is so busy sitting on the couch and watching tv, you bring his meals to him, etc?
Oh, and if you can work out a trade for some temporary help for the farm...maybe a high school kid? I'm not sure if this would work on your particular land, but where I live, there are farms that let you camp out in return for a day's labor/yard work. Even if these ideas wouldn't work for your situation, I hope you can see what I mean by "going around" your H. Stop waiting for him to pull on them big boy britches!
-- Edited by Dolly Llama on Wednesday 28th of March 2012 12:16:53 PM
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Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us. -from Pema Chödron's When Things Fall Apart
Thank you for your insights. I never thought about the phrase "free pass" that way. And, at least consciously, I didn't mean it that way.
I guess I just wasn't sure if I should be asking for his help with the house and kids while he is battling his demons. I know that I cannot expect him to help if he chooses not to, but what gets me is that I know if I simply request his help, he will. It's as if he has lost his self-motivation.
What I want to avoid is somehow "demanding" his help. He and I have worked so hard over the past few years to rebuild intimacy, I know that demands - either verbal or nonverbal - only build resentment.
I just need to figure out how to dispell the anger I feel over his loss of interest in participating in our family. I cannot imagine the challenges he is facing right now. He has quit drinking - something he has done for over 15 years - but he has not sought out any tools for success. He has chosen the hard road. And I want to support him and love him through it. I just have a hard time deciding what is MY job and what is a shared job. I've been the family caretaker for so long.
Hi there, I'm new to this forum but a long time member of Alanon and your post hit home. I struggle often with the free pass vs detachment issue. This topic brings up so many issues... expectations, resentment, control as well as the question "am I setting healthy limits?"
Here are a few of the tools my alanon friends have given me that seem to help. I was told that it was healthy for me to ask for help but I should do so without expectations, un-met expectations are a set up for resentment.
I was also told to examine my motives when I asked another person to do something. Am I trying to change and control this person or am I truly just asking for help? This is not easy for me because I'm a master at convincing myself that my motives are pure (plus I have an overactive sense of what is "just"). If I it appears I am asking for help to make things more fair that's not a good sign. For this one I need to "talk it over with someone else" usually another Alanon person.
Even more tricky am I honoring my own limits? If I am doing more than is healthy for me and I cannot get the help I need from the person I ask, are there other ways that I can change the situation? Can I lower the demands in my life? Are there others I can turn to? Here too, I benefit from hearing the experiences of others.
Finally, am I taking time to care for my physical, emotional and spititual needs? When I take care of myself I'm amazed at how much more energy I have and at how brighter the days look. Thank you for this topic, this is just what I needed to be thinking about today :)
Great ideas, Dolly! That's just what I was looking for. I can very easily let go of the chores I do specifically for him.
I remember when the kids were very little I would beat myself up for not keeping up with chores. Then one day, I prioritized. The kids needed me to play with them more than the house needed to be vaccuumed. I started looking at finished chores as the icing on the cake. If I cared for the boys well, I had achieved my goal.
I guess I need to look at this the same way. Yes, there are lots of things that I do for him because somehow I feel I SHOULD be doing it. I get up, even when I don't have to, and make his lunch. I do his laundry, fold it, and put it away. I shop for clothes for him when he needs them. I clean his office when it gets dirty because I know he likes it to be clean. I worry about how clean the house is because he likes it clean.
Some things I do for me but they still benefit him. I love to make dinner for everyone and sit down to a nice meal together. But I am going to let go of the expectation that he will join us without prodding. I like to have the bed made in our room and will continue that.
With the kids and the farm, I have chores that I still need to do. But I will simply ask for help when I could really use it, and then start working on getting it done myself.
It's funny, I believe in Love and Logic with my kids...giving them choices and allowing them to feel the consequences of their choices, either positive or negative. I don't know why it's so hard to apply that to my AH. I think some of it stems from how my mom took care of all of us. She fulfilled a very traditional mother's role and I have modeled myself after her. In retrospect, I think she was codependent too...even though my dad was not an A.
Ok. Today is a new day. I will lighten my load. I will focus on me. I will try to live in joy.
Some great feedback to this post, and the only thing I would add is that the whole concept of "detachment" is what is best for YOU, and your recovery/serenity.
You can do all those things - whether we like it or not, it is attempting to control/influence/persuade/change him - it's just that Al-Anon suggestions are tried & true experience on what is actually going to work, for YOU.
One of the many bad parts of living around addiction is that our focus tends to be on our qualifier - paying WAY too much attention and energy on the person we cannot control/change/cure, and far too little attention and energy on the one person we CAN control/change/cure - which is ourselves.
In my experience, Al-Anon seldom 'shoulds' anyone, in that our program doesn't tell you do "do this" and/or "not do that". The gentleness of our program is that it softens the message, to something that allows us our own freedom of choice, to something like: "if you want to be healthy & serene, you may want to try x".
Thanks for the post, and my sponsor used to help me steer away from that feeling of 'giving the A a free ride', to one of 'give yourself the ability to get and feel better'....
Take care
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
I think you hit the nail on the head. As I read through my thoughts, I am struck my the idea that regardless of my actions, I am focusing on how to get what I want by manipulating the situation. Am I going to quit doing his laundry so that he'll see how important I am?? Or am I truly looking for ways to make my life better/easier?
Difficult spot. And I think that the best I can do is hope that God can lead me in the right direction. I will continue to read for myself, continue to try to improve my life, and know that I will still make mistakes with regard to my AH but at least I'm becoming more aware.
just because you have alcoholism does not mean you are absolved of all responsibilities...
part of OUR sickness is taking care of everything..which we then "lord" over the A to make them feel small.. we end up feeling like their parent...because they do nothing.
I very simply said to my ex..this is what I want in a partner...this is what I need in a partner...are you willing to do this? you have to have some accountability to one another...otherwise...why be in a relationship? If you are getting nothing but more work from the relationship, why be in it?
this doesn't mean we try to change them, or control them, or bully them, or threaten, or cajole...just simply state AND assert what we need in the relationship. and if it doesn't happen, then we choose our next steps. What will I tolerate? what is a dealbreaker for me? What do I need to be healthy? Those lines will be different for everyone...but that does not mean that just because someone is addicted that we can have no expectations of them. I think if unmet expectations turn into resentments and mindgames/crazytown...well...that's another story.
Expectations, in my mind, are a different way to set boundaries. We can do that with our As, and then decide what's next when those boundaries are crossed.
Get the book getting them sober. I can't think of a better resource for you right now.
I don't think detachment is actually a free pass. If anything detachment is a way to look at what we can do, who we are dealing with and what we need.
Sometimes we can't make people into who we want them to be. Plenty of us are unhappy at work, I certainly am. That doesn't mean I get to take it out on everyone around me.
Very good points rehprof. I think the best thing I can do for myself is to know my boundaries going in. When we are fuzzy on our boundaries, it leads to manipulation and twisting "working" on us. Same with my son who is gifted and has mental illness. When my expectations are firm and the boundaries are set, he still tries to get around them (good lord the boy needs to be a lawyer, 'nuf said) however as long as I am clear I can calmly re-state my expectations with a simple follow up of "what you choose to do, is your choice, you know what I expect".
When something new comes up and I feel my boundaries being weak, my FIRST line of defense is "I need time to think about this before I address it". Otherwise that adorable little brainiac knows just how to unseat me. And I've learned the few times he's been successful at it, I just have to let it go, not let it eat at me and set a new expectation/boundary so it won't happen again.
Last night I caught my (normally the compliant kid) 15 year old in a lie. He started lying to me just about a year ago. I don't get caught up in it but he knows my trust is being eroded. My expectations for him are mostly involving grades because in all other areas he's generally very easy to work with. He made the comment "your consequences are too tough". I went on to have this conversation with him which he actually seemed to truly grasp in the end:
"You have been spending a lot of time and energy trying to find ways around my consequences. You dismantled my closet lock to get out the xbox on school days. You've now broken my computer password twice (second one was a HARD ONE too). You beg, bargain and waste time trying to get me to lower my expectations and it never works. If you put that much energy into doing what you need to do, to bring up your Math grade (free tutoring aftershool!!), you'd have the things you want. This is not about fairness or being to tough. This is about priorities. What is more important to you? Getting your priviliges back and doing the work, or avoiding tutoring and getting home early?"
He hummed and hawed and said "you know, I guess getting my priviliges back". I said ok so we are back where we started. I expect you to have a C or higher in all classes to be able to enjoy things like computer games and video games. You decide what you want to do.
I keep thinking of one of my children having a tantrum. I try to be very matter-of-fact with them. I tell them, "If you choose to cry and scream, could you please do it in your room...it's hurting my ears." I don't change my mind about expectations just because they are throwing a fit.
I feel like my AH is throwing his own little fit. But there really isn't a natural consequence in place. I guess the consequence is that he continues to feel miserable. I do not have to choose to be a part of that consequence. My life can be happy if I choose to ignore his tantrum.
And by ignoring the tantrum, I will continue to expect what I normally would of my husband...help around the house, help with the kids, help with the farm. If he chooses not to fulfill those expectations and have his fit instead...I will choose to continue on as happily as I can. At some point, he will either change his tune (for the better or the worse), or the balance will tip enough and I will choose to change my own circumstances so as not to include his tantrums in my life.
I remember I asked myself the question.. free ride to where????
Free ride to making his own choices for his own life and having his own consequences is where. Most times that isn't free. The controlling that I am doing now is giving him the free ride.. free ride to not having consequences for what he does and a free ride to the woman who does everything for him.
How about, instead of the duldrums after work, or the chores while he sits and watches tv.. the family has a walk together? Just for 20 minutes, time to chat and catch up, just walk around the paddock or whatever... not fast, just a slow relaxing walk.
I have found lately that I don't only ask my husband to help me I ask for specific things, and often give him a choice..would you rather cook or do the dishes (he always chooses the dishes), would you rather go out and lock the gate or put the dog away? He often just does both.
But do you know what I also keep very close to the top of my consciousness.... most men are like this.... not all.... but most. I listen to my friends talk about thier lives and at some point in time, every one of them has expressed the exact same frustrations... every one of them... it is not unique to living with alcoholism/addiction.
I am lucky and I can afford a cleaner and a lawnmower man. But even then.. the chores that are extra to that.. usually fall to me... Sometimes it gets to me.. sometimes I just let it slide.. but I do know.. I am in no way unique to my female friends that do not live with addiction
Keep your expectations low and you wont feel so frustrated , new sobriety we seem to think ok now were back to normal , NOT . he has to learn how to live with out booze so he sleeps at least he is not passed out . ugh .. If you need help ask , they arent good at reading our minds either hehe. Don't miss the good days enjoy . Louise
I wanted to chime in on this, but your last post sounded like you had a pretty good minset on it already and everyone else has stated what I would say. I do identify though and I really support asking for help simply because you need it and he is your husband. He's not physically incapacitated and getting up and doing things is good for his recovery. Arguing and nagging is not, but you never said you were going to do that and I think you have identified ways of dealing with this that are healthy and realistic.
P.S. - Im in AA and sober 3 years. Several people have told me to pull up my big boy britches when I was acting like a little baby and it did not make me drink because I didn't want to take steps backwards. Nothing you say or do will make him drink. Yeah there are certain things that might be a bit more helpful or hurtful, but ultimately, his decision to drink or not is HIS. There's never a good reason to drink for a sober alcoholic. If he relapses cuz you told him to do more chores, then his recovery wasn't solid enough and maybe next time he will go to AA instead of just thinking he can do this on his own while maintaining sanity.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 29th of March 2012 09:45:55 AM
I absolutely understand the having to ask to get my spouse to do things and he will do them but it's the having to ask that drives me nuts. I've talked to my counselor about it etc. I've tried letting things go, etc but it does build some sort of resentment on my part. I don't know that the issue you are describing has anything to do with being an A although he is dealing with that at the same time.
One bit of ESH from my counselor was maybe make a list of chores/expecations - that way it is clear who is to do what and when. Then there is no let down on your part and it is agreed on who will do what. Then if something doesn't do it you fall back on the "contract" not the person.
I have not tried this myself yet, though I need to.
Again, it drives me nuts - why should I have to ask, nobody asks me to do that stuff - it just gets done. It's a very passive agressive thing for someone to do. My H's favorite thing to do is to show up when I'm 90% done with something and say "Oh honey, I would have done that"
-- Edited by amills4294 on Thursday 29th of March 2012 10:12:32 AM
Amills wrote "My H's favorite thing to do is to show up when I'm 90% done with something and say "Oh honey, I would have done that"
HAHAHA! I know that story! Bless my HP that it makes me chuckle to remember.
Housework. My H goes away a lot for work. When I was home alone, I didn't cook every meal or clean up like I did when he was home. But when he came home, suddenly the sight of socks and boots in the middle of the floor and a sink full of dishes drove me crazy.
Hm, funny that.
Of course, the hyper neat freak I became when H was around was my way of trying to control an uncontrollable situation. If everything was neat and just so, then my life didn't look like it was falling to pieces...and if it looked that way, it must be true! This was all unconscious, of course. Looking back, that was definitely a message I got from my family of origin. As long as the grass was cut and the yard tidy, the neighbors wouldn't suspect anything crazy was going on inside.
In my marriage, I saw how cleaning became a martyr type thing for me. Here I was doing all the chores and Mr. Wonderful couldn't even get off his behind to take the trash out. So it gave me a surface reason to feel resentful, something to hang my irritation on. I realised my H didn't ask me to, and probably didn't even notice, if the rubber seal on the refrigerator door was crumb-free. And these feelings of annoyance at him for not pitching in like *I* thought he should were probably really about something else.
Just some more thoughts I had on this topic. It feels good to be able to relax these days!
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Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us. -from Pema Chödron's When Things Fall Apart
amills and dolly.... wow.. both those posts really spoke to me... this is a good thread
Ohhhh amills you made me laugh... mine does the same thing..... Ohhh I was going to do that.... If he does that, I stop the chore and allow him to finish it. The other one is that he will do something.. and ask 100 questions along the way like he doesn't know how to put the dishes away... 'Where does this glass/plate/tray/insert item go" my menu of reply "wherever you want to find it next... anywhere; the kitchen isn't the tardis, we will find it again.. or... with the others" Often I will deliberately find something to do out of the room.
Dolly.. you are soooooo right. ONce I started going to counselling, I realised that I started cleaning when I was triggered. funny.. I never did any chores when living at home. . but I knew that by looking ok on the outside, then that means everything is going alright. Doesn't it??? Ohhh the black eyes.. no... thats ok.. look how clean my kitchen and bathroom are!!!! Look at all the tins lined up exactly so we can read the labels!!!!
Man ohhh man... nowadays I deliberately leave my clothes on the floor for a while. COS I CAN!!! hahahahahahahaha
