I don't think I could qualify myself as "sicker THAN" someone else because I haven't ever been an alcoholic. I have been to plenty of open AA meetings and I can see what alcoholics go through, sure, but I haven't walked a mile in any of their shoes. In Alanon, I've heard people say that we're as sick or sicker than alcoholics because we deal with all the insanity stone cold sober. Respectfully, I disagree with the "sober" part of that. I don't think I was sober. While I have never been a substance abuser, I got a high off of checking up, being right, being high and mighty, etc. This was a very powerful and physical feeling. Checking up for evidence of cheating or alcohol was my addiction. This addiction really prevented me from seeing the insanity. Maybe it should be intuitive to see how dysfunctional relationships with some alcoholics is - but for me, as I believe is the case for many, it just simply wasn't.

I do think that I was sick myself, though. I was married for 8 years to an A that cheated, lied, stole, emotionally abused, you name it. He treated me horribly. I was sick to put up with it, yes - but the simple fact is that I didn't know that I was sick. That was pretty much the whole problem. I was so focused on making him "behave" and act better, and treat me better, that I simply could not understand what I was putting myself through. The behavior I engaged in with my ex was behavior modeled for me in my upbringing with one alcoholic parent and one parent that reeeeally could've benefitted from Alanon. I'd never seen any different. While I might've thought that things could've been different, the feelings of it were the norm - what I'd experienced pretty much my whole life.

I don't think that sitting around saying, "Ohhhh, I'm sicker than he is" would be particularly beneficial, if I did believe I could qualify myself as sicker than someone else. To me, that seems like keeping the role of the victim or martyr, roles which I've tried really hard to let go of. However, realizing and accepting in hindsight that I was SICK helps me to understand my own behavior and be kinder to myself for stuff like staying in a marriage with a drunk mean guy for so long. It helps me not beat myself up for doing things I would never want my best friend to do.

As for your question about other people staying in toxic relationships when their entire focus is on their insane alcoholic, that one is hard. It's really really hard not to try to talk common sense into them. My best friend is in a toxic relationship right now, and when she tells me all the drama, I have to physically bite my lip. She's not ready yet to seek out other options. That's just where she's at right now - kinda like the alcoholic that's not ready yet to quit drinking. When the person has had enough toxic abuse, he or she will seek out help - just like when the A has had enough pain, he or she will make a change. Until that point, the person just isn't ready.

I am very interested to see the responses you get here - these are interesting and thought provoking questions.

I would agree that I'm "as sick" as an alcoholic, or have been, because I was as addicted to my alcoholic as he was to the alcohol.  Right now I'm in recovery but I can feel the pull of the relationship if I don't keep my wits about me. To me considering that I'm sick helps clarify things, because otherwise it's all about him: he did stuff wrong, but I made all the right choices; he's to blame for this situation, but I'm an angel of clarity and rightness, and so on.  The saying that's helped me most is "My choices, my results."  My choices were sick choices.  Who else would accept what I accepted: the lies, the coldness, the deception, the abuse, the chaos?  A healthy person wouldn't accept those.

Maybe part of the problem is the word "sick," which can have a pejorative meaning, as in "That behavior is sick."  Maybe "unhealthy" would be better? Whatever we're like when we start the relationship with the addict, we can so easily get pulled down into the unhealthiness.

My guess is that the answer to "How can we let them go on being in their unhealthy relationship?" is the same as "How can we let alcoholics go on drinking?"  They're both addictions; they're both full of denial.  Preaching at people doesn't make them want to give up their addictions.  We have to realize that life can get better and make the choice for ourselves.  I think that's true unless the person is in physical danger.  In that case their fear of leaving may be very realistic (abusers often escalate the abuse when the person tries to leave, as I'm sure you know), and so more drastic measures are in order.  Sometimes it helps to be told flat out that we deserve better.  But I think it works best when we're able to make the choice for ourselves.

Great questions.

For me I felt sicker partly because I am not an A. It took so much more to finally drag me down from a very healthy existance. It is HORRIBLE to see and feel that one you love is changing. Then all of a sudden they are no one like the person you knew!!

That my friend is a nightmare, Stephen King nightmare. They look the same but are in no way that person you knew. It honestly makes you insane for awhile.

I was sicker becuz my mate was gone. I was grieving for someone who turned into a monster in front of my eyes. I am a VERY protective person. I had to be so on all the time so he did not hurt the animals. One time earlier he said he fed. Well the next day I did and those animals TOLD me they were not. It is ez to tell!!!

I forgot to take care of me, do my eyebrows, make my feet pretty, smile, do my makeup. I lost my spark.

He on the other hand did not care much.

I knew I could not control his "friends." He told me after many many years off heroin, this friend, after A's brain surgery walked in front of him and said come on lets do some up. He had a syringe of heroin in A's face. Yes it was A's choice. He basically "married" this friend and drugs.

Let me tell you how sick the a and friend were. My car broke down. Friend, AH said had gone to look at car and left A a message what was wrong. So we drove out to car.

A got message. we go home. Then friend happened to call. Friend had left a bunch of downers in that note! A had unknowingly dumped the when he opened note.

So A has me drive back to car, I thought to work on on it. No there goes A with a knife scraping the road to get the downers!!! I am not kidding. Scraping them up and putting it into his mouth!

Then a few days later he wants to go back and make sure he got it all.

Not sure why I put this here.BUt I tell ya he was just on his mission to get drugs. I was dumbfounded, sickened, horrified, by this thing I was watching unfold. That stuff damages a loved one!!!

Anyway the "friend" died heroin od at his moms house. NICE family. friend was a very popular guy who was very nice to me.

Mark,a non A is never going to relate to an A and visa versa. I can only share how i felt.

I am glad you have such an excellent therapist!!!

Soooo soooo glad you stayed!! I bet you are too!. love,debilyn

it's been a different experience for me because my husband is a wonderful, kind hearted, loving, caring man who has never, ever hurt me physically. he has, however, hurt me emotionally, because for a year he was lying to my face and using. I now know where all our money was going, and why he was so lethargic.  I feel immense guilt because for the four years ive known him i have drank with him socially.. I did not understand that drug addiction and alcoholism are connected... at least for him they are very much the same.. if he's not using he's drinking.. i just didnt realize at the time taht drinking was bad for him. So my issues with me being "sick" are diffiuclt for me.  I know I have serious things I need to work on... like keeping my focus on myself, letting go of control over things I have no control over, and thinking one day at a time instead of worrying about the past or fearing the future.. but to call me "sick" just does not add up in my head.. naive, yes.... blind, maybe... completely wrapped up in things i did not need to be wrapped up in (trying to fix others' problems or nagging my husband like he is a child.)  I am now allowing my AH to make his own choices for everything.. he is a grown man and needs to have all motivation to be sober and just generally make the right choices for his health in hiw own hands.  before i worried about his health very very often and all the while he was using and I did not know it.. now i am trying very hard to focus on my own health and growth.  Just keep in mind, Mark, that everyone's story is very different.. not everyone felt "victimized" but i do believe most people involved in al-anon have significant progress to make toward their own mental health... the word "sick" sounds so tragic..  in my case I was unaware of what was healthy for me.. thats what i was. so grateful I know now what I did not know then and can make the appropriate changes.  whether my AH remains in AA.. that is his path. I can only hope God grants him serenity in his life. We are together and I have no plans of leaving him.. I am working very hard on detaching from him but remaining caring and loving.

Great topic and yes I have in the past been sicker than the alcoholic. I went through most of my life stark raving sober and it does things to you. It has taken counseling and Al-anon to get to a healthier point of view and comfortable in my skin. I work a diligent program, because all the work is so rewarding within myself. How I am feeling today beats most days of my chaotic crisis driven past and I like the new calmer and funnier me. I am still the same person, but with great awareness and maturity and I am a true survivor and a victim no longer. I choose to be happier and see my blessings. I still have moments, but it is no longer my days and thank my HP fot that!!!

Mark,

Very interesting topic.  For me, I know deep down inside I was so mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally sick.  I would move throughout my days not finding any fun or happiness or peace within.  I would try to practice habits for which I used to find tremendous joy but none would come.  I felt dead inside and thought if it werent for their drinking, my life would be so much better.  

Alanon and working with my sponsor helped me come to my own realizations that I had a big part in my own misery.  I see that now.  Back then all I saw was my life was miserable because of their drinking was destroying our relationship and my happiness.   Today I have a new perspective, a different vision of how I contribute to my happiness or misery.  Either likelihood is possible.  In the end, I am responsible for my attitude, actions and inner being.  No one else can take credit for that but me.

Love,

T 

 

 

"like trauma victims and in need of validation"  That is very perceptive and true and also a very correct consequence of living in the disease of addiction without help and support.  Validation is a love connected word for me...Loved by others and myself and able to give my love back which doesn't exist much in active alcoholism.  Love within the disease usually is a one way prospect which is hardly ever returned to the giver...result zero affirmation and gratitude leaving the giver, if like myself, trying harder to make it happen still with zero results.   Read here "Doing the same things over and over again expecting different results = Insanity = mental and emotional trauma and illness also affecting the physical being and killing the spirit/motivation for happiness, peace of mind and serenity.  Nothing seems to matter any more.

In early program they used to read the definition of alcoholism...along the lines of the AMA (American Medical Association) and it contains Al-Anon addenda, "We become as sick or sicker than the alcoholic because we do not have the anesthesia of alcohol to block out reality.  Therefore we go thru the whole thing wide awake."   When the alcoholic behaves badly or insanely everyone can point to the bottle however when the non drinking partner behaves this way there is no apparent reason for it.  "Alcoholism affect everyone it comes into contact with" is also a part of the definition and for me a most informative statement on the cunning, baffling and powerful nature of the chemcial and the disease.  Just before I found the doors to Al-Anon I had an insane event.  Standing under a parking lot light at 3am I found myself screaming into the night sky asking for a space ship...anyone didn't matter which to come and take me off the face of the earth.  That wasn't verbatium just close and I knew I was very very ill mentally and emotionally and would need to be incarcerated if the police on the otherside of the street would make the call.   I didn't know why I was insane...just that I was and that normal people didn't do what I was doing at the moment.  Semantics aside If I saw another person doing what I was doing who wasn't drunk at the time or on drugs...I would say they were hurt, in pain, crazy.  Viewing myself as sick didn't tell me what from...many just don't know until they start looking for help and many after finding help still don't/won't leave for higher ground for more reasons than we could understand in a short period of time.

I once met a member who was attending face to face meetings anonymously in the extreem.  She was brought there by and from the staff of safe house.  She had been extreemly abused by her alcoholic husband who was under court restraint and serving time as a spousal abuser.  This was her second trip and he would be facing prison if he violated the courts sentence and crossed their boundaries.  She would be in the safe house kept secret from him for months and he would be in jail and then like magic, after her body healed and she had most certainly learned about alcoholism and her situation...she returned home to her husband...The cultural aspects of relationships must be understood including the religious awarenesses and beliefs.  We speak and listen on MIP to the economics of remaining in a less than healthy alcoholic relationship and the known and unknown fear aspects of being without that person who has become to be relied on for sometimes little or nothing.

You have the benefit of change in recovery Mark and it has taken you 3 plus years to work the program to the benefits you now enjoy.  It didn't take you overnight and you scrapped and clawed for some of it.  For me that is what happened also.  It took me 5 years to "come to understand" what I now know for myself.  It was five years of listening to the experiences of others before I could recognized my own.  As it has already been mentioned...those who tried to tell me how to do it I rejected...they "talked at me"  Those who listened to my story and then shared their own with me to help me become aware that they knew where I came from and what I had been thru and had been thru it themselves were the ones I learned to trust and therefore I could trust what and how they learned to change and come out of it.  They knew and knew that they knew and helped me come to know myself.  My AHA!! journey.  On the emotional level that is called the shared compassion and empathy relationship.

I don't try to talk sense into others who might need help I try to talk shared feelings only...the "I know what that feels like because this is what happened to me."  Helping another person to change out of an alcoholic or abusive alcoholic/addict relationship isn't dangerous for me, although I've had my life threatened 3 times by alcoholic/addict relatives.  It is most dangerous to the person reaching out for help because when they quit doing what they've always done which has become habit and relied upon by the other there is going to be some form of demand for the wheel to keep rolling as it always has or for the play to beacted out as it has long been scripted.  Some one is going to make a demand that it continue and abuse happens on soooo many and variable levels as to deny imagination (cunning, powerful and baffling). How do I talk sense?  I don't I talk about the non-sense of what it was like for me, what I found out and what it is like now;  my experiences only that way I don't have to think something up for them that I already know about for me.  Share it. 

If I had a nickel for every "right" thought I had about situations outside of my control I'd be wealthy and if I gave a guarantee or warantee along with my "right" thinking I'd be surely poor and still in court being sued by someone for whom my thinking advise didn't work well or at all.  I'd rather do the "share" and at the same time rely on a power greater than myself or you for that matter than control or manipulate situations into proving at last that "I am right".  That for me, learned in Al-Anon has become the truth.  Trying to get someone to do something my way even if I might never have done it that way myself is about my power and control and the more I try it, my self will running riot.  I rather go with Higher Power than Jerry force.

One of the things I was told by my alcoholism counselor and my college professors was that using "shared experiences" in the counseling room is or can be a detriment.  None of my psycologists or psychiartist shared experiences with me...none would even when asked.  Only my alcoholism counselor did and he ran the VA recovery program in my town which had a strong tap root with what worked for them...Spiritual based, 12 step AA so therefore though I still paid him for his 45minute hour we shared and on several occasions (non-paying) I was the counselor and he was the client; by mutal agreement.

We get healthier than where we come from from doing what works as we are showed how it works by others.  I do what others have taught me...it is not unique other than uniquely Al-Anon.  Much of what I learned came from the ladies of Al-Anon many of whom at one time or another were sicker than their alcoholics and are not now.  Several of my female mentors have shared with you on this thread...none have as much time as I have and at times they reveal a deeper understanding, strength and hope to me.   "If you keep and open mind...you will find help."   Soooo you do that...I've watch you do that including this post.  Keep your mind open...look for new awareness and understanding outside of your own and your program of support will grow beyond expectations.

For me I'd be interested in how you'd respond to Glad's response.  She does that for me also...clues me into looking inside and asking "So what's my part in this?"

Thanks for the thread...really listening to it and caring.   ((((hugs))))

 

Definition of mental illness:

Medicine / Pathology) any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people

This is me over and back and back to front.  How many people do you know/meet who have abusive backgrounds and meet the criteria for a mental disorder (ie sick).  The DSM IV has criteria for addiction disorder.  It also has criteria for many other 'illnesses'.

Normal, may be relative to a setting on a washing machine but I ask, is being downtrodden and beaten on a daily basis normal,

is growing up in child abuse and sexual abuse normal,

is being scared of many many people in your life, including yourself at times, normal,

is passing this life onto your children normal.. then behaving as if you (the child, me, in my case) is not affected. 

I could go on with what is abnormal in my thoughts and emotions and all those that I affect along the way including myself. 

My abandonment issues are not normal.. who picks a fight with someone because they haven't held your hand long enough and therefore they must show how much they love me.. all the while I am yelling at them???

I have threw things, screamed and yelled, checked up on, pulled the house apart looking for drugs, talk in sarcasm and said hateful things, I have gotten into physical fights with other women, I hav worked as a prostitute, hurt people in ways totally unimaginable and said nasty things... all in the name of co dependence and insecurity.  The need for love and validation after a traumatic childhood.

Yes I am sick.  Unfortunately, I agree with other points made here.  The people who take the substance have a clear 'marker' or 'grade' of illness and/or recovery.  The date he last took a drink or used or started medication etc.. there are even chips for it.

For us.. what is there.. nothing... we have put up with this treatment and then we are all happy when the alcoholic has an anniversary.  I am not saying that is a bad thing... but the progress of recovery is not as open, and I think also the 'sickness' is not as open.  Our illness if often triggered by the active use of the addict in our lives.

My addiction is people that treat me badly.  Why??? BEcause that is what I know. 

You said "I would be hard pressed to call them sick (even if they are) because I would want them to see they are healthy enough and good enough to deserve better."  Do you not want this for the addicted person also????

Does this mean if you see a person who is sick, that you do NOT want them to feel healthy enough to get better???

I know that is not what you think or you would not do what you do on a day to day basis.

My final point is... this isn't a competition about who is more sick than the other.  That is different for every individual.  I know I am sick and I am mentally unstable becasue of my upbringing.  I can only accept treatment once I know and accept I am unwell.

Read some of the stuff on the ACoA board and you will see some other effects of this 'sickness'  No one who is healthy, would live the way we did before recovery started for us.  I truly believe that person can be healthy and live with a mentally sick person.

All that aside, any physical abuse, I call the cops straight up.  Where I live we have mandatory reporting rules unless we feel to do so would put the person at further or higher risk.  That is for all citizens, not just health care workers

Lindaoakford wrote:

---

No one who is healthy, would live the way we did before recovery

---

 Now THERE's a true statement whichever room you meet in!

Thanks guys for the responses, they are helpful and thought provoking. To answer Glad lee,

I am sorry to separate myself from you guys as I do qualify in alanon too. Was I sicker than my ex-A? I would say I certainly was. My behaviors were not checking and so forth though. I didn't make myself feel mighty and powerful. I dealt with his alcoholism by mimicking it and then I surpassed him. That is very sick I would say. I couldn't deal with the reality of my relationship going down the tubes, him being drunk all the time, us not relating, money problems, my own personal problems, so I checked out and drank myself. For me, I would have always accepted the "crazy" label because I am the one that was on meds for depression and I would get that thrown in my face a lot. Whenever I complained about anything it was often "Did you take your meds?" What finally made things change is when he tried to kill himself with my meds when totally drunk and I had to call 911 and have him committed. During that time he was in the hospital, I was able to get some clarity, take a step back, and part of me recognized I was better off without him....or at least I could function without him. So, while I didn't up and leave at that point, that's when the seed was planted. When he got out the insanity of our lives escalated, but at that time I realized I was better off on my own.

All along, my family tried to tell me to not let him handle money and such....to make important choices on my own...to protect myself. I read that as criticism and my mother telling me I was stupid and could not take care of myself. My Ex-A latched on to this and started calling my mom a bitch all the time. He also told me I couldn't take care of myself. In response to that I just drank and wallowed in misery. I called the AA hotline a couple of times and asked how likely it would be for me to get sober while living with another alcoholic...they said it would be much harder. I felt so trapped. I remember crying and screaming (both in drunken and non drunken states) about how sad and empty I felt. By this time, I'd let him convince me to move to Florida. I had no family and almost no support. I was terrified of change. I clung onto him until I almost killed myself. I literally almost killed myself trying to make that relationship work. Yes, that was pretty sick. I crawled into AA sobbing, crying, saying I didn't know what to do...I just crashed my car, broke up from a 7 year relationship, went with just 2 grocery bags full of clothes to say with my 1 friend that I had left...That was my alcoholic bottom. I now realize that was also my Alanon bottom though that recovery has been much harder for me. I accepted I am powerless over alcohol and came into AA waving the white flag. When it comes to being powerless over people...I snatch my will back constantly and it causes me a lot of grief. I am a helper by nature and profession but I am always getting confused between facilitating change vs. forcing it. So...what I need from alanon is reminders that I truly am powerless over other people. It did make me very very sick in the past....and just because I don't drink any more does not me that trying to control others will not make me sick again (it has several times in recovery already). I hope this answers the question.

Thanks guys for the responses. I am not just doing a study here and I wouldn't stick around if I didn't identify. It's strange sometimes writing about my past for a few reasons - I have changed so much - In addition to alcoholism, I also picked up smoking and overeating in that relationship (other behaviors the Ex-A had). I have dropped 60 pounds, stopped smoking...I go to the gym. I have a relationship with a stable man who hardly ever drinks. Daily life is radically different. I thank my HP for rescuing me from that point where I was so sick from both the relationship with my EX and my alcoholism.

Mark

I like what abbyal wrote. :)

Thank you for this post, Mark. I read every comment. I Just read and read and read and learn and learn and learn. posts like this give me more and more and more.

haha.

glad lee: you said "I need al-anon because people don't act the way I think they should act." That is me in a nut shell. I am working on it every single day. something that is probbaly a no-brainer to most people is a complete challenge to me. I just pray for my HP to grant me his will to be able to do this one moment at a time and then to not beat myself up if i don't get it right... since I was always trying to be... perfect. and there is no perfect.

i hope you keep reading and posting, Mark.

Acceptance. I think I read about it in the big book of AA. That is something I work on daily. I have to accept people for where they are, and myself too. ODAAT Says something about it too, when I accept me for me, and stop looking at what everyone else is doing...I don't feel so sick anymore. I have heard of the alcoholic about to get in the car and drive drunk, and the alanonic laying down behind the car to stop the alcoholic from driving. Either way, its not good thinking...

YFM,

I just love the reminder of the car backing up analogy.  I have not heard it in my face to face rooms in several months.  What a precious reminder coupled with an eruption of laughter for me this morning. 

Thanks for sharing!

T