is it a choice once in AA - Al-Anon Family Group

Tracy · ~*Service Worker*~

is it a choice once in AA

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Tracy,

Hugs, I'm a little confused by your post this is what I got out of it, the counselor feels that your AB is choosing the alcohol over you. Now .. that in my mind is a true statement. I still go back to no matter what, yes, your AB has a disease however HE is still responsible for his choices. Being an addict is not a get out of jail free card to do whatever he wants to do all in the name that he's got a disease. That's an excuse to continue to operate out of an unhealthy place. It doesn't sound to me that he is ready for full blown sobriety, maybe yet, maybe never that's a choice he has to make for himself. He's the one playing that card to manipulate you. Now that's my two cents take what you like.

I went to an open AA meeting that happens to be a speaker meeting as well. I get so much out of it because the people speaking have been down this road. The speaker last night spoke about how they actually was attending meetings drunk for the first few months. They did go it didn't stick. They went to rehab after basically They got tired of being sick and tired. It stuck that they didn't want to drink anymore, however they wasn't really working the program until a few months later they got a sponsor. What these meetings do for me is allows me to see that side of the coin without being sucked in and it's someone's story without the excuses. It's really a mind blowing experience at least to me it is.

The way the speaker phrased their story during the first round of AA while the speaker was drinking and going that the speaker just couldn't make the choice not to drink. Now after they got clean yes, the speaker made a choice not to drink. It is a choice it's a daily choice for some it's an hourly choice, just for this hour I won't drink. Something the speaker learned during his drunk time in AA was how to use every single phrase that is suppose to keep you from drinking to their advantage and they twisted them so the speaker could drink and now he had the phrases to keep them drunk. That's what I"m hearing when you talk about your AB that there is a lot of manipulation going on, he is playing his AA card and truthfully if he were really working a true AA program he would know he always has a choice to drink or not to drink. If you haven't experienced an open AA meeting I highly suggest going it really is an amazing experience to hear from someone who knows what it is like to be on that edge of I have got to have a drink and then decide they don't want it. It is really up to them to make the choice to stop living in the disease.

I don't know if that makes sense or not. What I think that the counselor is trying to nudge you in the direction of is looking at the situation in a more realistic manner without the emotional attachment, as long as your AB continues to make the choice to drink over his program it's an unhealthy relationship. He IS going to continue to do the abusive things he's doing and yes, I would qualify that as abuse in my book, .. it's my book, and so what it is to me isn't for others. It sounds like to me that she's trying to let you know that while he continues to act out he will continue to be a drinker. This behavior that you didn't cause, can't control and won't cure is going to continue to happen. (I don't want to should all over you), putting the focus back on you, getting yourself healthy and well is priority it doesn't matter if he's drinking or not because he sounds like your obsession (no judgement just stating what I'm hearing in your post, you love him and you are in pain). YOU are what is most important especially while he is active. Feelings aren't facts they just are, feelings change, they are neither right or wrong, we don't have to knee jerk react out of feelings.

A girlfriend and I were talking something again I go back to is what is your motive in the situation. Do you think you are going to hope him into recovery? Our hope is for us and inside of us. Only he can hope himself into recovery the same way we do in alanon. Do you think you are going to cure him? Because if he only loved you more he is going to make the choice to get clean? We don't get to make composites of our perfect guy and say I like this, however man oh man I do not like that so I'm going to take what I like and change what I don't .. that is so not going to happen. Wed was not a pretty evening around here because I got a shade of a man who I do not care for and it was very confusing for me, I realize .. I have to accept ALL of him because he brings ALL of him to the table including his addiction. Ditto on me .. LOL .. I'm sure there are a few things he'd like to weed out of me, the reality is he gets ALL of me because that's what I bring to the table. It's the good the bad and the ugly, we don't pick what we like and change in the other person what we don't like.

Hugs I hope I made some kind of sense, .. I'm midnight driving for a few nights. P :)

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Okay...now I am speaking as an alcoholic with 3 years sobriety. At any point I could have made the choice to take that first drink. The decision to have that first drink is the one that is really a choice. Your counselor is right...he did make that choice stone cold sober. He took the money sober. This behavior is especially bad when one considers he has had AA tools and the solution available to him from attending AA for quite some time now. There is no excuse for stealing and using people after you have been in AA for that long. It flies in the face of the steps and it just shows a person that isn't really willing to recover. The "being weak from not attending AA" thing is a sorry excuse too. Who makes him not go to AA meetings? HIM. That's a choice of his too. If I had diabetes and just happened to forget to take insulin for 7 days in a row you would put the honus on me and think I was stupid for doing that. You would assume I wanted to wind up having a diabetic seizure. The same is true with alcoholism. You can assume he made the choice to get drunk. This is especially the case now that we know he has been to AA and has the tools to get and stay sober.

I have told the important people in my life to cut me off and my partner to dump me if I start drinking again. That is how badly I want to stay sober. I don't speak for AA, but the lame excuses and failure to work a good program on the part of your boyfriend sounds like a person that is wishy washy and doesn't want to have the consequences of drinking, but really wants to keep drinking. Yes, he is sick, but he is also immature and not stepping up to the plate here and because of that he is doing the revolving door of AA thing. He's responsible for that. A million people have told him he needs to go to meetings regularly and AA doesn't work when you slack off.

Literature states that the ones of us that can't stay sober are those that do not have the capacity to be honest. That seems to be at the root here. He is believing his own bullcrap about being sick, weak, and vulnerable, and he is able to convince you too.

You can decide to do whatever you want Tracy. I respect you and I really feel for you cuz you didn't ask for any other this...BUT, you are not dealing with a person that really wants to get sober.

nyc018 · Senior Member

I can only echo the excellent advice from Pushka and Pinkchip. Going to AA isn't enough - my AH did it, and went to outpatient rehab, and continued to drink until he lost his mind, lost his job, and went to inpatient rehab. Now he hasn't drank for about a month but honestly, I think it's mainly because he's on antabuse. I don't trust him otherwise. It's ultimately a choice and a big uphill struggle. It can be done - but as everyone tells me (including several RA's) - he has to want it badly enough. Going to AA isn't enough if you aren't willing to work at it.

(Pushka, I really like how you described "you can't hope someone into recovery." Totally hit a chord with me. I'm going to try to remember that every time I start down the path I can't control."

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm not trying to bash your partner either...I wanted to clarify that usually the path to sobriety is rocky and covered with slips until the person is so raw and hurt from slamming their head into a metaphorical brick wall that they surrender fully to AA and work the program with a perfect step 1 (which basically means an absolute understanding that one is so powerless over alcohol that messing around with it in any way shape or form will lead to a horrible place). A few years down the road, there is a decent likelihood that your partner will have accumulated some good sobriety. Many people in AA had multiple relapses before finally getting honest and committed. BUT: His chances are better if people hold him accountable and treat him like a grown up for his behaviors. I have not drank in 3 years (not saying this makes me great or whatever) but I have the same disease as your partner. If I took your purse you would be flaming mad. You would not say "BUT PINKCHIP HAS A DISEASE!!" and then forgive me so quickly.

Tracy · ~*Service Worker*~

Thankyou for your great ESH it has helped so much.

Especialy you Pinchip

I understand that when I have a slip in my recover it is because I have not been doing it correctly al anon comes first with me they say if you miss ameeting for a week you become weak. I have always made excuses for others your share has helped me so much. I will put boundaries in to protect me actions speak louder than words thank you so much hugs tracy xxx

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I cannot say what your counselor meant.

I can tell you the A does not think how a non a does! You have NO reason to feel ashamed or a fool!!

A's are driven to use. That is their ultimate goal always. Even if sober for many years, they have to stay in a recovery program and continue to practice sobriety and staying on the path to working to be a better person. Not lieing, being moral. discovering other things they enjoy. they have to believe choosing life/recovery is better than using.

NO it is not personal. I have to use this example becuz it is my passion. Ok Debilyn if you had to choose to live on a planet with just people no animals, or a planet with just animals no people. It would be with animals every single time. It is just ME.

If having my animals was sick, omg i would have to realy work a program HARD.

It's not that simple tracy. now we with how we think as non A's Its simple oh drink or give someone back their money?? well duh of course we give back money.

they do not think like this.

Of course there is always hope they will find they WANT sobriety and work a strong recovery program. But its so much more than not using!Most all relapse. They are sick forever, its an incurable disease! If he had a brain tumor making him be like he is would you take it personal?

Also for someone to say they worked with ONE A and knows something about addiction????um hmmmm. I doubt it.

It takes YEARS to really come to the realization that a non A has no idea what they go thru, how they think, or what makes them do what they do!!! I only know some stuff becuz of experience, taking a bunch of courses in college, going to aa open meetings, researching the physical aspects of it and more. Plus I was my AH's friend too so he talked to me a lot about it.

AH was a very intelligent man, faced the demons.

Anyway I hope this helps. I myself do not believe it helps us to go to counselors that do not have extensive experience in addiction. Better to see a person, I think a male, who has MANY years of being on a program who will not baby us or try to protect us.

They are the first ones to tell an A to get it together, get off your A** and work your program, stop this stupid stinking thinking, oh wa wa so what? get going on that job, change your attitude you big baby.....It takes tough to fight this disease.

hugs,debilyn

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

The requirement for me regarding listening to others whatever their position in life and professions and the like is "always keep an open mind". When we preclude a share or opinion with the statement "just for me" we recognize that there are other opinions and experiences which also are real to others and could be helpful to us while we keep an open mind and are open to trying the experiences and awarenesses of others. Counselors are people "and for me" I didn't and still don't just buy into what is being expressed as if it is exactly what I need...I keep an open mind and use patience and more exploration regarding the share...My sponsor taught me "Don't react!!" and "When there is doubt Don't make a decision right away." Those are natural recovery laws for me now. My mind, body, spirit and emotions tell me when something is more true and useful than others especially others I have been using that haven't worked...That is also called using my gut.

Sobriety for me isn't just about not drinking.

Alcoholism is a compulsion of the mind and allergy of the body all of it wrapped up in one person. The compulsion lives and has already been mentioned is alive and well no matter what else is going on in the alcoholic including...using a sponsor, meetings, literature, step work and the most useful of all...a higher power. We acknowledge that alcoholism is cunning, powerful and baffling and if we acknowledge that; and for me that is a irrefuteable truth, then my natural expectation is for the alcoholic or alcoholic addict to drink and use. It is when they are not drinking or using that something is not in order.

Not drinking and using is about changing behaviors and thoughts (millions of them) that use to be natural. The natural state of the alcoholic is to want to drink (compulsion and obsession) and then drinking physically. The compulsion is the strongest thing going on in their lives and they must change "everything" including placing not using old behaviors, thoughts, feelings and motivations which were the only things they knew before.

Alcoholism doesn't slow up for Alcoholic Anonymous otherwise the program would work the first time every time. There is just too much involved that supports the compulsion and obsession. Alcoholics drinking when they don't want to and are justifiably stunned when they do even after years of recovery. It is not unusual to see relapses after 20 or more years of being alcohol free.

Alcoholics are not "bad" people...they are "sick" people with a life threatening disease and that disease touches everyone it comes into contact with. Those it touches are powerless over it on all levels and the only one who can help is "God...may you find him/her/it now." Alcoholics have only a daily reprieve and no guarantees. It is treacherous and scary. I have long term being alcohol free and less time being sober. There have been many times I have had to use all aspects of the spiritual program of recovery from "both" rooms to stay alcohol free and appearing to be sober. I thank God for the programs and for the people in the programs who have crossed my path and helped me to attain one more 24 hours period where I can be of use to God, myself and others.

I suggest more indepth investigation on alcohol and alcoholism even from outside of the programs.

Keep coming back and keep working at it...Your life depends on it. ((((hugs)))) smile

PS I once gave my director my definition of addiction which was, "The continued use and abuse of a mind and mood altering chemical in spite of the evidence of its negative and destructive consequences." or something close to that.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Friday 7th of October 2011 01:41:11 PM

rrib · Senior Member

Tracy wrote:
although he is sick he made a choice the first night to drink know ing the consequences.

I know this much. When I was still drinking I FELT like I didn't have a choice. I FELT like if I didn't take a drink, I'd go nuts.

A.A. taught me that I DO have a choice. I can choose to not pick up the 1st drink AND A.A. gave me the tools to make that choice and stay sober.

It taught me there are other things I can do today to stay sober if/when I feel this way. I can call a sponser or another A.A. and talk. I can go to a meeting or an extra meeting. I can read the Big Book or other A.A. litature. These days, I can even hop on-line and get to a meeting that way. Or go to a chat room and one of these boards.

Or I can choose to say f...-it and drink anyway.

-- Edited by rrib on Friday 7th of October 2011 02:29:16 PM

youfoundme · ~*Service Worker*~

You have gotten some great E S & H here...

I have done a lot of different reading with the AA big book, books by addicts, books by codependents and I have listened at meetings, and to pod casts from speakers all over the place. I have heard something similar in all of them. The disease is that we don't want to feel our own feelings and we choose to either use drugs, drink or obsess over people (our qualifiers) inorder to not feel our feelings. The thing is, for me, I am addicted to this mood altering guy. He does stuff that causes chaos, or we create chaos together and then I get my adrenalin fix. So you see, I am no better than him. I cannot judge. This is a simple program for complex minds... I can make it so difficult, by not going to meetings, not calling my sponsor, not reaching out in some way, not coming on these boards and then I get down in the dumps. If I use the tools I have been freely given, I feel better, I don't want to get chaotic, I have serenity. I have a choice too, and I can choose my attitude so that I don't get into my addiction. I like what RRib just said here... and just for today, I choose to be in serenity... just for this moment. I can only live in today and so I will only do today. HUGS to you...

Doozy · Senior Member

Thank you tracy for this posting, and I'd really like to thank our double winners. I got a lot of insight from you guys tonight. Hang in there tracy!

John · ~*Service Worker*~

I can only share my personal experience and what I have witnessed over the years with many others who "seemed" to have made a choice...

The Big Book of Alcoholics Annoymous use the phrases... "mental blank spot" and "pecular mental twist"... to describe what an alcoholic experiences as a part of taking that first drink, it also says that the day will come when nothing tangible or any one will stand between them and a drink... its then at the mercy of their spiritual fitness.

My thoughts on your question is wide ranging...

If the alcoholic had been sober, and working a program and then took a drink... either not thinking of the ramifications or thinking of them and drinking anyways... would indicate that at that moment in time, they were most likely suffering from alcoholic insanity. So, even if they made a choice, can we say that the choice was made by someone of sound mind? When this happens are we again, expecting normal behaviors, reason and logic from an abnormal mind?

POWERLESS...

I have been sober for over 21 years now, but I have to stay in fit spiritual condition to this very day to insure that a power greater than myself is making my decisions, and/or restoring me to sanity, before I act on the insanity taking place between my ears. Self knowledge avails me nothing when in that mental blank spot, it cannot even remotely put a dent in the insanity taking place. I have to seek out other recoverying alcoholics or get on my knees, possibly both.. to get a daily reprive and be restored to enough sanity that I am able to make a healthy decison.

John

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.