"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Patk · Member

have you ever received an apology and did it make any difference?

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Pat.... I cannot fathom how "holding your ailing father accountable" at 79 and failing health can do any good for anyone.... I guess I would just encourage you to check your motives, and/or what you would hope to accomplish out of all this?

I know it can sound trite, but "forgiveness" (which is ultimately for you, by the way), may be an option you want to consider.... Carrying around that burden, anger, etc., is really tough - and perhaps the timing is now right to grant your father the benefit of "he did the best he could, with what he knew at the time"??

My concern, for you, is "holding him accountable" sounds like it may, in fact, be tied together with the "expectation" of an apology forthcoming, and that event may not be all that likely....

Just my two cents.

Tom

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

BIG Hugs,

Pat, I really gotta ask some hard questions here, what is your motive for doing this? The reason I ask is because is it really going to matter especially if he doesn't remember and really doesn't believe he owes you an apology? He's 79 years old, and right or wrong did the best he could at the time. Now he may have wronged you I'm not debating that because these are your feelings. You sure are entitled to them. You are not going to "make" him apologize for something he doesn't remember and how would you feel if he said to you, "I'm sorry I just don't remember it that way." OR "You are imagining things, what do you mean I owe you an apology?" OR I mean fill in the blank. So a forced apology personally and this is opinion wouldn't do anything for me because I would spend the rest of the time wondering did they mean it or not?

I guess I think about the fact of my own situation with my dad who is now the same age. We don't have a relationship. It's been almost 3 years ironically. I will probably read about his death in the paper, I check obits just so I know. I doubt I will be informed, I have no idea what he's been doing or how his health is at this point. The last trip to visit him was a HUGE mess. I was a hot mess, his wife is ugh .. lol .. I won't go there.

The reality is no matter what paperwork I can supply and I have similar stuff, only I was told I was the reason for my parents divorce AND he cheated my single mother out of money that was suppose to pay her years of being married to him. He was a serial cheater. I see him now as someone who had a very low self esteem especially when it comes to women. I was the worst affront to him, not only wasn't I blood related, I was a girl how dare I. LOL. What's the point though? He is who he is, I can talk until I'm blue in the face for the self satisfaction of "proving my point". And then what, I'm a middle age woman who has beaten down an sad old man. Does that really make me a better person? I don't think so. I'd rather just let things lay, he knows how to reach me I wouldn't even slam the phone down I've decided I'm not going to pursue the "I'm right" with him. I know my own truth and I'm ok with that. They have a picture in their house of me, .. lol .. it's HUGE .. it also happens to be when I was 3 years of age. Outside of that there is not one other picture in that house of me, forget about my kids. It's like a shrine I died when I was 3 .. it's pathetic and sad. It hurt bad when I saw that. There he is all proud LOOK at the picture I have of you .. ummm .. really?? LOL? I laugh because it's such a sad situation, people can't write dark comedy like this, here I stand as an adult looking at this HUGE picture of myself at 3 years of age. What does he tell people about me? I died when I was 4? That's why there aren't any other pics?? WOW!! ISSUES .. LOL!! And guess what they aren't mine!!

I think STOP comes into play and look at your motive as to why are you going to do this and what do you really want because chances are you aren't going to get it from him, and even if your dad apologizes I feel like it's going to be hollow. I would def feel that way with my own dad so I own I could be projecting. An apology to me is something that comes out of the blue from the heart. It's not forced, badgered, pleaded out of another person. It's just it's going to cause a whole lot of pain for you and that I will testify to you will happen. My dad can get a hold of me if he wants to, however I've dumped it back on him, while I want to do step 9 with him it won't be a f2f it would be disastrous and that's my take right this second as I am still working on the first 3 steps myself. Plus step 9 isn't about making someone else apologize to me it's about me making amends. So I get to take the "I'm right" attitude out of what I'm going to choose to do.

Just my two cents, i probably over share .. that's to many years in therapy .. lol. :) P :)

david62 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Pat,

I have heard over and over again, from both Al-Anon members and AA members that no matter what our parents did in the past, no matter how good or how bad they were, in recovery it is our job to understand that they did the best they could at the time with what they knew. We have to let go of the past hurts, forgive.

Most of all we have to be the best daughter/son we know how to be. Regardless of how they were then, or how they are now.

Our side of the street can then be clean and healing can begin for us and for them as well if they choose it.

Thanks for sharing,

David

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Pat,

I would have to agree with the others based on my personal experience with my 82-year-old mother, who by the way, passed on last week.

I tried to get her to go to joint counseling because I knew we needed guidance in order to establish some kind of positive relationship that we both yearned for. But she refused.

So not wanting to cut her entirely out of my life as I tried to do at first, I learned to accept that my mother did the best she could, right up to her death. Hard as it was, I overlooked a lot of comments and actions.

When I began to see that I was a person a value and gained some degree of self-acceptance, I stopped looking for her acceptance and love.

It's tough when a parent doesn't know how to give unconditional love. But we can learn from their mistakes and/or incapabilities.

One of my sons asked me not long ago how I knew how to parent since I was raised primarily by my mother. I told him that I employed the Golden Rule: Treat others the way I want to be treated. When our sons were growing up, I strived to treat them how I wished my mother would have treated me.

I'm so thankful that I sought out how to forgive.

Please think about your motives as others have suggested.

Take good care, Gail

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Patk, I'll tell you my experience with a similar situation---with my mother.

I'm guessing--just guessing--that you are walking around with anger and hurt that you feel the need to get out on the table so that you won't regret not having done it after he has passed? At least, that is how I had felt my whole life.

I had been treated and labeled the "black sheep" since I was illigetimate. I was born two years before my mother married and had my two legitimate sisters with my stepfather.

I always strove to be the perfect child. Hard working, never got into trouble, always sweet and obedient/polite. I got almost straight As in school and tried to excell at everything. I got scholarships for college and graduated at 161/2. Never asked my parents for a penny of money, etc.., etc.. My sisters were not "perfect" and got by with murder compared to me. I was severely punished for the smallest infraction, etc.. You get the picture---yet I was still a "black sheep" I lived with my grandmother much of the time, and thank God (literally) was greatly loved by her and my aunts/ uncles/ and cousins. I think the love from them saved my life.

My mother is now 90yrs. old. In 2005, my mother referred to me as the "bad seed".

I was so upset that I went to a therapist (I drug my husband along for support) and asked her to help me. Ultimately, she asked me to write a letter to my mother expressing my feelings in great detail. She asked me to use only "I" sentences and cautioned me that this was for me---and not my mother. The goal was for me to know that my mother heard my feelings honestly. I did not blame or rub her nose in anything. I also acknowledged the good things she had done (there were some.)

It was hard to do, and the therapist heard my letter befor I mailed it. The therapist, me and my husband all cried as I read the letter out loud.

I know she recieved the letter, because I sent her some sweet pea plants at the same time. She planted the sweet peas and tends them with care to this day. Much later she broke her arm and had extensive surgery. I called her in the hospital. That broke the ice, and I now call her frequently. She has never mentioned the letter, BUT she talks to me with respect that I never--NEVER--got before. She is not an easy personality, but I have detached enough and changed my expectations enough that at least we have a somewhat decent relationship. I feel more genuinely close to her than I ever have in these recent years. My husband died of cancer suddenly, just recently. She has been very understanding of my grief.

Long story short, it is important to be "heard" regardless of the outcome. It is for YOU. You bore the pain--you are allowed to express the hurt. A letter might be a good way to do it. I would suggest that you get a trusted person to help you with it, though.

I wanted to share my experience with you. I really do know how you feel.

In support,

Sincerely, Otie

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi, Patk. I grew up in a dysfunctional family too and I can guess at some of the pain you've felt growing up with all that you describe.

One thing I've experienced over the years is that when you confront someone with blame or anger, however calmly you express it, and however justified it is, they react defensively. Believe me, a lot of my anger was more than justified! But being blamed puts people on the defensive and they don't react in a helpful way -- generally they just throw out counter-accusations which can be even more hurtful, sometimes because they are just so ridiculous, you can see the person is just reacting out of anger and spite. But every time I've tried this, it has just left me with worse feelings than I started with. That sure is something we don't want to do to ourselves.

Remarkably, I got my elderly mother to go into therapy. I kept hammering at her until she agreed to go (she wasn't very good at setting boundaries, which had an ironic up side in this instance). The therapist wasn't all that good but she was better than nothing. I could tell something had had some effect when my mother said, very awkwardly and abruptly, "Love you!" as we hung up from a phone call one day. That was the only time in her life she ever said it to me. Anyway, I came to two of the therapy sessions, at her request. I could see her struggling to understand what the therapist meant about boundaries and empathy and all the rest of it. It was like learning a foreign language. That was when I really began to understand that my mother had no clue how to live an emotionally healthy life. She was brought up in a troubled family and she just didn't see it or learn it. It really opened my eyes. Apart from that "Love you!", she didn't really change very much, even though she was flailing around trying. But basically she was just as dysfunctional and difficult and withholding and infuriating and manipulative as ever. The thing that changed a little bit was that I was able to see that she just wasn't equipped to do any better. It would be like asking someone in a wheelchair to get up and run a race.

This is a roundabout way of saying that I have fears that your father is no more equipped to give you what you really need than my mother was to give me what I really needed. But maybe understanding it differently might help you as it helped me. Above all, I hope you can take good care of yourself by not expecting something that your father might not be able to give. My mother could never understand why she couldn't be like other people. (I think she had Asperger's too.) I think finally I understand it. Maybe your father doesn't understand his own actions either. But the more we understand, I think, the freer we are.

Hugs.

ilovedogs · ~*Service Worker*~

I was wondering what the motive is here, too, as I have decided to let my dad free of how I feel about how poorly he treated me. Like Otie, I was the good kid, got good grades, very obedient, yet in college my dad was drunk and called me numerous times and said the meanest things to me. He even told me that I should have been aborted and that it was my fault that he and my mom divorced since they married because I was conceived. I was hurt for YEARS from these few conversations. I've learned, though, that my dad is a sad, sad man. He now is paralyzed due to a spinal tumor and has had numerous infections over the past year or so and I have learned to have compassion for him. By putting my resentment and expectations aside, I have learned to just enjoy what he is capable of giving me. My dad is young (62) but he's only got 40% lung capacity due to the smoking and he has some liver damage from the drinking. Throw in the paralysis and he's suffering. What I have learned from my dad recently is that the human spirit can be soooooo strong. He was depressed at times about his situation especially when he was in isolation in the hospital because of MRSA, but he always kept healing, kept pushing on, and his spirit was still alive. It's been quite a lesson for me and I'm really working on true forgiveness. If the opportunity ever comes up where I can confront him about what he said to me, maybe I will bring it up but it will be in a loving manner not in a way to illicit guilt from him. I want to make sure my actions and words are pure and healthy and honest. If I never get that chance, then I think I'll be OK with it.

Obviously there is more to my relationship with my dad other than that. I remind myself that the past is the past and that my parents really did do the best they could at the time. My mother swears she would have made a better parent at the age of 40 than she was at 20. Yep, wouldn't we all, LOL!

michellelong · Veteran Member

Hi Pat,

I would like to share my experience with you, it's different but I hope you are able to take what you would like from it and leave the rest.

When I was 5 my mom died, my dad packed me up within days and basically dropped me on the doorstep of the family down the street who's daughters babysat me.

So here I was, just lost my mother and apparently my father and thrown into a home where I was not wanted. They had 2 boys 3-5 years older than me and 2 daughters 9 and 11 years older. The girls who used to play with me and take me for walks through the neighborhood now despised me as they were an already struggling family with now another mouth to feed.

The mother liked to use a wire hanger when I was "a bad girl" and at the ripe old age of 10 I learned all to quickly about sex as their boys were now in full bloom puberty! No one believed me and my father was called to come get me for "telling such hideous lies"!

My now fully blown alcoholic/drug addicted father takes me to live with him, this lasted a year with many a night left home alone until one day I walk home from school and all of our belongings are on the front lawn of the apartment complex........

My new lease on life had begun.....I went to live with my maternal grandparents. My dad would visit on some weekends then here and there until it became mostly holidays if he remembered. When I was 18 and had my own ride I finally went to him. I could not believe my eyes.....he was living in a shot down room off the back of what looked like abandoned home and there were needles visible as well as beer cans all over the place. It stunk bad!! It was Fathers Day of 1989. I remembered my dad liked to read so here I come book in hand as a gift. When I handed it to him with a card, the card got tossed on the bed and the book handed back with the statement "I already read this"! Out of the bathroom came this nasty looking woman half naked and arms bruised like I had never seen. My dad basically said goodbye and shut the door in my face.

I decided right then and there ENOUGH I did all that I could do, did I get a chance to ask him why I had to lose both parents? NO! Did I want to? YES

My dad died in March of 2009, I had to learn of this on FB through an estranged cousin on my dads side. I cried a little but not because the answers I longed for died with him.
I stopped that festering feeling I had for so many years because it was making me sick. What happened happend and I realized nothing he would have said could have made it change but I am the person I have become today because of it. Lastly no matter what he did or in my case didn't do I would not be here today if it were not for him.

In the end we all "my belief" will answer to a HP the answer may not be heard by us but it will be answered. Take care of you! You are worth more than giving someone the satisfaction of letting them know they had this hold over your thoughts for so long!

Just my 2 cents :)

Michelle

youfoundme · ~*Service Worker*~

In my own childhood, I survived sexual abuse. At one time I wished I could get some kind of an apology. What I realize now is that I need to forgive what happened to me, for me. What I am doing is I found a sponsor to help me work the steps. I go to meetings and I come on this board. I read my literature. I am learning to let go of what happened. That Beattles song Let it be is helping me too ....
I don't know my biological father, I know where he is, but I have moved past the point of wanting to confront him for never being in my life. Everything happens for a reason. I am glad I was raised by my step dad. Take care

clep · Senior Member

I led a horrific childhood filled with alcoholism, abuse and neglect at the hands of my father. He sexually, physically, emotionally and spiritually abused us. He went to prison for what he did to us and that is when my mother got out. I was thirteen at the time.

I saw him twice in my adult life. I am now 41. He had obviously not changed at all. I did not receive an apology. An apology would never take away many of the crippling fears and hangups that I was provided. It would never provide me a new perspective, healthy thinking or better start in life.

My father died in February. I am so grateful that when he died I was at peace with him and the situation in my own mind. He was abused as a child. He was living with distorted thinking as well. The one difference is that he didn't have all of the aid available to him that I have now. Help was limited back then, and a man asking for help was not widely accepted.

My dad did not strive to be a poor parent. He tried to be a good parent as every parent does. He had many things to get in the way. All I know is that I would like for my children to have the same forgiveness with me that I would hope for. I have made so many mistakes with my own children. Maybe they are not to the degree that my father did, but some may seem unforgiveable to my children. I hope not.

I didn't have to confront my father and have that conversation. He had his own guilt and shame to deal with. I am so saddened he took that to his grave, but I canot do anything about that, just like I can't make someone see my way of things.

Patk · Member

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all for your replies and insights and experiences you shared. Regarding my motive(s) to see my dad and rehash this stuff from my past, well, to be honest, I still have a difficult time trying to forgive. There are days when I feel serenity and that I can honestly say I do, and then there are those other days when I cannot seem to let go of the anger and resentment. A sponsor in AA told me to pray for two weeks every morning for those people you hold resentments towards. wish for them the same things you wish for your family. I began that two years ago, and again, to be honest, there are some days when the thought of a person does not bother me, and then there are days when I relive the pain and hurt.

So with my dad I kind of feel like the victim of a crime who would like to confront the person who comitted the crime, maybe not to hear a confession or act of contrition, which may not be forthcoming, but to look them in the eye and say, " I was hurt, but I do forgive you..." I have done lots of reading of stories of remarkable people who have forgiven and I find inspiration from them, but I do struggle with it. It is akin to some people in AA I have heard on the AA speaker tapes saying they tried to "become so holy and spiritual only to admit later that this new person was not the real them, that they could incorporate the concept of a HO without reading the bible daily or going to church on weekly basis..."

I read a book called Toxic Parents by Susan Forward PhD who said that many of her clients say they have forgiven parent(s), but the truth is they have not yet TRULY forgiven them. What she recommends is these people either write a letter to the parent or meet them in person to tell them how they were hurt; not a big dramatic yelling showdown, but to tell the person they were hurt. I am not sure if my father realizes how much he hurt me, and like several of you wrote, there may indeed be no point in trying to demonstrate to him the pain I have felt for 30 years. I guess I am just being honest with myself about the difficult time I have with resentments, not only toward my father and decease mother, but others in my life. My AA sponsor recommended burning the paper (my Step 4 inventory) was written on, as a symbolic gesture to clear away the past...It did help at the time, but I still have issues.

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Pat,

Hugs again and I can so understand. Issues don't go away they just don't, it's a lot of work to look past and to at least be able to recognize that yes, this happened, yes it totally sucked, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy whatever the situation. Sometimes the best we can do is change our perspective of the situation, would you make the same choices your parents made? I know I wouldn't want to because of how damaged it left me. I want to really say it was NOT ok what happened to you.

We have no power to make someone else see they have wronged us in some way. I really encourage you to write a letter to your dad, write one with your opposite dominate hand, (right if you are a lefty and left if you are a righty) from the child you were and how you felt as a child. THEN write a response to your dad as the adult and how it made you feel and so on. THEN I again encourage you to write a letter to yourself doing the same thing, from the child to you, and again from the adult to your child self. Work with your sponsor (sorry I'm sounding preachy and telling you what to do I'm just strongly encouraging you to find a different path to put this behind you) read the letters to them both sets to your sponsor and then have a mass ritual of burning all of the letters with your sponsor and give it all over to your HP. Make a decision to move on, you so deserve better than to continue to give power to your dad and mom. I'm not minimizing what was done to you at all it is horrific when a child is helpless and is violated on any level. What was done to you is NOT ok.

What I am hearing you say in your postings and I could totally be off base so take what you like, yes, you were hurt by your dad I just get a strong feeling that you are really more upset with yourself over the situation like you should have been able to do something about it at the time. The truth is as kids we have no power over the adults and the injustices that are done to us. As much as we crave the apology from those who wronged us we truly have to be able to forgive ourselves for being violated and being powerless. This is NOT your fault. I said before many of us did not get the parents we deserved and we have to find a way to meet those needs in other ways. I strongly encourage you to forgive yourself first and then re-exam the need to to get an apology from your dad.

I try and look at forgiveness as I'm not saying what was done to me was ok, I'm choosing to stop putting the power in someone else's hands and take my power back for me. I don't have to go to tea and cake with the person who has wronged me, I can choose to though to say, I forgive them so I can see them and not want to slap them silly. If the person has no awareness of what they did who's wasting more energy on that issue me or them? Who has the ulsers me or them? I hope I'm making sense .. LOL .. it's been a long hot day. :)

Hugs and you just so deserve better because whatever was done to you as a child does not have to continue to negatively impact you. In that we have huge power, in that we live a good life, a healthy life and we are happy and survived in spite of what was done.

You are so worth that, P :)

clep · Senior Member

Patk wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for your replies and insights and experiences you shared. Regarding my motive(s) to see my dad and rehash this stuff from my past, well, to be honest, I still have a difficult time trying to forgive. There are days when I feel serenity and that I can honestly say I do, and then there are those other days when I cannot seem to let go of the anger and resentment. A sponsor in AA told me to pray for two weeks every morning for those people you hold resentments towards. wish for them the same things you wish for your family. I began that two years ago, and again, to be honest, there are some days when the thought of a person does not bother me, and then there are days when I relive the pain and hurt.
So with my dad I kind of feel like the victim of a crime who would like to confront the person who comitted the crime, maybe not to hear a confession or act of contrition, which may not be forthcoming, but to look them in the eye and say, " I was hurt, but I do forgive you..." I have done lots of reading of stories of remarkable people who have forgiven and I find inspiration from them, but I do struggle with it. It is akin to some people in AA I have heard on the AA speaker tapes saying they tried to "become so holy and spiritual only to admit later that this new person was not the real them, that they could incorporate the concept of a HO without reading the bible daily or going to church on weekly basis..."
I read a book called Toxic Parents by Susan Forward PhD who said that many of her clients say they have forgiven parent(s), but the truth is they have not yet TRULY forgiven them. What she recommends is these people either write a letter to the parent or meet them in person to tell them how they were hurt; not a big dramatic yelling showdown, but to tell the person they were hurt. I am not sure if my father realizes how much he hurt me, and like several of you wrote, there may indeed be no point in trying to demonstrate to him the pain I have felt for 30 years. I guess I am just being honest with myself about the difficult time I have with resentments, not only toward my father and decease mother, but others in my life. My AA sponsor recommended burning the paper (my Step 4 inventory) was written on, as a symbolic gesture to clear away the past...It did help at the time, but I still have issues.

I have that book and a rather large library of self help books. Before Al-anon I thought they would fix me. I couldn't identify what was wrong but I knew something was. I did what the book said and talked with my mom about her role in the abuse in my childhood. It made things worse for me, since she didn't agree at all or acknowledge my feelings in the slightest. I went away from that with a rage that ruled me. I couldn't believe her blatant justification for all the crap I went through.

After coming to Al-anon I finally realized that if my parents saw what they did and were ready to apologize they might be doing so. I can't make someone see things in the same perspective I do. The guilt they felt did not allow them to admit to the things that were my reality. I had 14 pages of typed out resentments for my step 4.

I lived with the rage until I did my step 5 with a reverend. After that day, I have a peace that I never received from all of the books I read or counselling I did. For me my step 5 was what changed my life.

Hugs

Patk · Member

Hi Clep and Pushka,

Thank you for the replies and advice. Pushka, I just want to make sure I have this write. You wrote the following and I want to check to see if this is what you suggest I do...

I really encourage you to write a letter to your dad, write one with your opposite dominate hand, (right if you are a lefty and left if you are a righty) from the child you were and how you felt as a child. THEN write a response to your dad as the adult and how it made you feel and so on. THEN I again encourage you to write a letter to yourself doing the same thing, from the child to you, and again from the adult to your child self.

1. I am right-handed, so with my left hand I will write a letter as a child (40 years ago) to my dad.

2. Write a response from my father to me (the child I was 40 years ago)

3. Write a letter to the child in me from the child me (40 years ago)

4. Write a letter to me as a child (40 years ago) from the adult (me today)

Pat

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"