Boundaries, sponsors, etc... - Al-Anon Family Group

KLotus · Senior Member

Boundaries, sponsors, etc...

david62 · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Klotus,

Setting boundaries can be a tricky thing, especially when trying to set a boundary for someone else's behavior. Setting a boundary doesn't mean punishing someone else, especially an adult for their misbehavior. Saying "The next time you talk to me that way I'm gonna take your TV away for a week" isn't going to work, because it isn't "inforceable".

The sneaky thing about setting boundaries is they only work when we set them on ourselves and that is sometimes hard enough! smile

Telling myself, the next time someone talks to me in an ugly manner I am going to walk away from that person and not respond to it would be a boundary I set on myself that I can control. Perhaps if I do that enough times the other person will get the idea I am no longer going to engage with that person if they say ugly things to me.

We can't control other people. We can try to learn to control our responses and our actions.

As far as "outgrowing" a sponsor it has happened to me. Nothing wrong with trying another one. In my case I had to just be sure of what my motives were for changing. Isn't really that I have "outgrown" the sponsor or is there some other reason I want to change.

Great questions!

Yours in Recovery,

David

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Klotus

I agree with David and would just like to add that it is really important to remember that boundaries are flexible and are established to protect ourselves.

So ,Keeping the Focus on ourselves " because we are powerless over another, a boundary could be a very simple .phrase or action that you decide would work for you.

.

When something he does is unacceptable, simply validating yourself, your needs and then leaving the room works wonders.

It also can just validat yourself and continuing to do what you were doing without further discussion.

and

Lastly simply stating" that may be your opinion, I will consider it "and leave the topic alone. Say what you mean , mean what you say and do not say it mean,

Yes we do outgrow sponsors it is not unusual to change sponsors with no hard feelings.

flopadopilus · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi KLotus, when I read your post about taking away the t.v. I had to laugh. I could relate and my A is very smart and manipulative, but I learned it is really hard for him to treat me bad time and time again and than rationalize why it is okay, when I am no longer in the room. As soon as it starts or even before it happens I am gone. I will no longer put up with my A's verbal abuse period. As soon as I hear it coming out of his mouth I am outside, in the car, in another room reading Al-anon literature. It is really hard to treat me badly if I remove myself from it as soon as I get a red flag. After a time my A has toned it down, because I finally taught him after many years of taking it, I would no longer! It isn't easy and it is all a process of learned behaviors. Change takes courage and time. It's all about progress not perfection so don't beat yourself up in the process. Sending you love and support!
I don't know about outgrowing a sponsor, I still have the same one and although she gets frustrated with me at times, she is always patient and kind about it in a Motherly way. I know I have slips and am not progressing as fast as she would like, she also knows it is my life and that I am headed in the right direction. I had to have some very hard conversations with her and once we broke through the wall, things have gone so much better, it was my lack of communication and honesty with her that was building walls. The program works when you work it.

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

KL :)

I love what people here have shared about boundaries, Jerry comes to mind and I know a couple others have said the same. "That boundaries are promises that I make to myself." I struggle between control vs boundary. They are the consequences that are about me. As an example, I'm no longer a doormat. Go me .. lol. The consequence is I let people know how I feel and/or remove myself from the situation. I also get to do it with dignity and respect for the other person.

There are all kinds of really really great threads on boundaries it's always a good topic!!!

I got nothing on the sponsor as I don't have one at the moment, booooo. lol.

xeno59 · ~*Service Worker*~

You have gotten some really good ESH on the previous replies !
Boundaries are meant to protect you not to punish the A. That was a kinda hard concept for me to get.
My son is my A, he is an adult so yes it wasn't as if I could ground him or take his TV away.
What I could do was if an argument was going to start or had started I could walk away, I did not have to participate. If you can leave the room, go for a walk whatever you need to do to remove yourself from the situation.
A's are extremly manipulative and are so good at turning the tables on us so we end up walking away thinking we are the ones with the problem. If you remove yourself from that situation from the get go it kinda takes the wind out of thier sails.
Also always have a Plan B. If you have made plans for example to do something together or with the family and your husband backs out for whatever reason have a back up plan so you don't have to sit home being unhappy. Personally if I was going out with an A where I know they are going to drink or whatever, I would take my own car that way you can leave at anytime you feel uncomfortable or if they are the stubborn ones who won't give up the car keys at the end of the night you don't have to put yourself in danger by driving with someone under the influence.
The boundary we set for our son when he was living at home was he couldn't come home high, the consequenses if he did was he would have to move out. He did very well for a while and then slipped back to his old ways and we advised him he had to move, which he did within 3 days. Then he lost his job and we were helping him out a bit until he showed up here a few times high again in which he was shown the door very quickly and money was cut off.
Another thing about boundaries is you don't do for the A what they can do for themselves. If they pass out on the front lawn, in a chair wherever you do not go out of your way to get them to bed. If they get arrested for DUI you don't post bail, if they lose thier keys in a bar you don't go pick them up. You don't cover for them anymore with work or whomever. We are as sick as our secrets. Basically you let them feel the natural consequenses of thier own behavior, put them in HP's hands and get out of the way. If we ( and i was quite guilty of this for the longest time ) keep cushioning thier bottom, always making sure they are comfortable and taken care of then they will never seek help. Why would they? If A misses dinner don't wait on them, have your dinner and let them figure out what they are going to eat when they get home.
Like I said it takes practice at least it did with me. and it took a lot of supprt from my alanon family
Can you out grow your sponsor? Yes of course you can. You should have a sponsor that fits your needs. Your current sponsor may have been sent to you to get you started and now maybe you need a new one that will help with the next part of your journey.
Blessings

Freya · Veteran Member

I've been learninng about how to set boundaries too, and one of the most useful things I was told was that boundaries are not about behaviour modification and trying to change someone else's behaviour, which is ultimately control, but about promises we make to ourselves to protect ourselves. Once we make a promise to ourself it's important to keep it. One of the promises I made was that I would walk away as soon as my partner started being nasty. He had a habit of being nasty or spiteful in public places as he knew I froze because I was so embarrased. I realised I didn't have to stay around and listen to him manipulate me and confuse me if I didn't choose to. For the first week we barely talked as I walked away as soon as he started being nasty, which was every day. He started being nasty, I turned tail and went home. I didn't say anything to him as I left, I just left. I didn't justify, argue, defend or explain my behaviour (JADE). I just let my actions do the talking. I found it really frightening to do as I didnt know what reaction I was going to get, but I was just so fed up of allowing myself to be hurt by engaging with his behaviour that I just didn't want to give him my energy in that way any more. Standing infront of him while he spouted nastiness/was manipulative/came up with a million ways to blame me for his problems hurt me, and didn't do anything to help our relationship at all. After a couple of weeks of me just turning round and walking away he stopped being nasty in public. he has tried to be nasty since in phone conversations, and I hang up as soon as he is nasty to me. Again I don't justify, argue, defend or explain, and he seems to have got the message that I'm not going to hang around and take his nastiness. So the boundary isn't about trying to change his behaviour, it's about keeping a promise to myself that I don't allow myself to be manipulated or engage in someone else's bad behaviour. What he decides to do with that is entirely up to him. Someone here on MIP also wrote that we don't have to attend every argument we're invited too. My partner will argue black is white just to give himself a place to hang his frustration at life, and for a long time I engaged in the arguments because I didn't want to be seen as wrong. Now I figure I'm not interested in putting my energy into arguments that go nowhere, and so again I just walk away. I'm happy to talk with my partner when he really wants to talk but I'm not interested in being his kicking post because he is feeling bad about himself and life in general.

This is my ESH, take what you like and leave the rest. (((hugs))) Freya :)

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Klotus, you have gotten some great replies.

One that I like is to say " I cant't hear you cause there is a loud roaring in my head" as you are leaving the area. You are not obligated to further comment. If you DID decide to comment---for example, if he asks why you are always walking away---you might answer "it only happens when you are speaking unkindly", or, "It only happens when you are talking trash", or "It only happens when you are being narcissistic---or manipulating--- or hostile...etc...."

Linbaba also gave some Greeeat ones once, but I can't remember where.

Good luck with your collection!

Sincerely, Otie

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Boundaries are an action thing to me by setting them i decide how I will be treated. when husb is acting irrationally or just taking my inventory I tell him that if he dosent stop , or lower his voice and speak to me the way he does to others that I am going to leave the room , if he dosent stop its up to me to take action and walk away . of course ony if its it safe for you to do so . 3 great argument stoppers I learned in this program are . I am sorry you feel that way and walk away * trying to explain yourself is a waste of time ,he has already made up his mind that he is right * or you could be right and walk away , or If husb is pointing out my defects * thanks for pointing that out I will take a look at it *. the discussion is over but the secret is to walk away and leave the room dont stick around for the argument that is comming . It dosent take long for people to realize that if I am being verbally abused I am going to leave the room and it stops- the hardest part for me was to remain consistant . You mention your sponsor perhaps like me you didnt want anyone to know you that well so for awhile I chose to talk to other people instead of calling sponsor .. trust is a biggie with us and today I know that I was afraid if my sponsor knew me that well she would reject me . which didnt happen .

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Grateful for this post...kinda like a DIY workshop which is what helped me go from what I knew to what I do. Freya's share for me is a "this is how it's done" and God did I need that when I first got into program because I needed to stop using my bruised brain and to use my feet. Don't Think it out...Act it out was the experiences I needed. My old thinking was stinking and my brain needed to be put back in it's box.

One thing I learned in the University of the Al-Anon Family Groups is that there is a consequence for everything I do and don't do. That for me is a fact now and in the lessons on the slogan Keep It Simple my sponsor taught me, "If you choose the consequence first rather than leaving the outcome out to fortune than you can do the thing that gets you the consequence you want...or close." I use to work for NASA and never heard a rocket scientist speak like that. My sponsor managed a winery...LOL

It is not up to me to set consequences...Like Freya works it, her alcoholic's consequence was watching her walk away...which is the exact opposite of what he wanted and a negative consequence. After a while he has to change his behavior in order to get a more desireable consequence and yet amazingly she didn't build the boundary to change him at all. He loves her and needs her around so he can safely act out and not loose her. She will keep coming back...only now not in the way he's been having it for a long while. God the courage it takes to do the new stuff is large!! from my own experiences.

Boundaries are not punishments...not even close. Consequences are punishments or can be at times. Boundaries keep me on my side of the fence where I water and fertilize so that the grass is always greener than the other side. Boundaries are also barriers which can keep others and their crap out of my pasture. Simple metaphor..thank God I do need pictures drawn for me.

Living in the disease I learned required me to learn how to give grace and have understanding that often times others (especially the alcoholic/addict) don't "see the picture" like I do and are not on the same page as I am and that there are always differences in perceptions and attitudes and by giving grace I allow others to be where they are at and to care before just writing them off as not valueable. My alcoholic had feelings and perceptions. Often they were different than mine and rarely were they less valueable than my own. They were hers, uniquely hers and I learned how to give grace and to love unconditionally by just listening as I would like to be listened to. There were conditions as Freya states. It had to be respectful and supportive of the partnership; the talker and the listener or the consequence was that the listener left. After she learned she had to change in order to keep the listener who loved her present the process changed for the better. All Al-Anon stuff.

Our program is about changing for the better and a sponsor taught me that includes changing sponsors. There isn't a management contract only a mutual agreement and unconditonal love and concern. (((((Hugs))))) You guys are wizards and I just love wizards!! smile

-- Edited by Jerry F on Thursday 14th of July 2011 02:22:26 PM

-- Edited by Jerry F on Thursday 14th of July 2011 02:26:49 PM

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh Abby,

One of my favs is "you know what you may be right." That is a show stopper too. :)

P :)

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

When we truly love ourselves for the person HP helps us to be,we won't even listen or absorb garbage talk about us.

All that uglines is coming from the A, what they feel inside. Has zero to do with us. I very much agree with David. I probably learned from him and others about we can only control us.

I have shared after I realized it is just a stupid diseased brain talking, I would not get drawn in.

I am going to burn the house down, oh ok Babe the lighters are by the insense. I am going to leave. Ok Babe, there's the door.

I was fortunate mine never, ever put me down. At least to my face. If he had, I would have said,"Well you would know, you asked me to marry you."

Mostly I would keep my cool and walk away to get a drink of water, go read, go get into the shower, go take a nap with my pigs.....

Oh sounds like a problem, hope it can be figured out honey. Walk my cute wiggly bum out of the room.

A couple times I just went over and hugged him and kissed his neck. THAT really freaks them out.

Oh I get so excited when you talk to me like that! huh what??? lol

Hey this was after years of it and having Al Anon. I knew it was the disease I was talking to so I could be as nutty as it was.

We had a thing we said, he started it, He would say I am sorry the "other" one was a jerk yesterday. I have shared mine has multiple personality disorder. He was horribly abused by his father and saw his father beat and terrorize his whole family.

Anyway for me learning not to give it any energy was how I delt with it. Plus if I was treated badly, guess who did not make dinner, or wash his cloths or???I don't reinforce negative behavior from anyone.

Honey nothing he says when he is like that means anymore than if he had a hi fever and said mean things.You would not take that seriously.

I think it is we learn so many things, then it becomes natural not to even bother to listen.

Good share! thank you,debilyn (c:

KLotus · Senior Member

You all are awesome! Thank you for the insights.

I hear what you are saying about the boundaries being about me. I was curious when his treatment counselor asked me to make sure there were consequences for his behavior. Really, though, I'm at a point where I am so much more sensitive than ever before, and even a little repeated exposure to negativity from him seems to send me into a hole - I know ultimately this is a choice. I just almost wish we could live in separate homes for a bit until he is deeper into recovery - he's 4 weeks out of a treatment program. I think I'm also just exhausted: I'm the only one with a job (full-time at that), and I come home to my 14 month old, another full-time job (which I adore more than anything, but this still takes energy).

I tried to address some issues beneath the surface of an argument we recently had today. We had an email exchange. I asked if we could save the main conversation for a marriage counseling appointment coming up. When I came home, he was on the phone talking about how stupid my feelings are and how I only want to talk with a counselor to validate my side. I felt hopeless - even when, as he asked, I find a couselor who neither of us knows, as a fresh start, I still can't win. I know I can't "win" anyway with alcoholism.

Why do I continue to not feel or think enough about myself to be in a healthy relationship? Now that I am married to an alcoholic, I feel all of the work I've ever done to become a healthier person has been wasted, drained. I felt so hopeless today that I began to think that, if I have to continue living in this kind of dynamic, I won't be able to be a good parent to my child anyway, so why stick around? This kind of thinking is SO not me - Being a parent has been the most wonderful experience of my life, so much so that I wish I could stay home and do it full-time. It is a symptom that I am failing myself, and I don't know how to find myself again - No matter how many meetings, talks with my sponsor, or literature I dive into. I am so angry that I am having physiological responses, medical issues, due to the stress in my life - and I'm only in my very early thirties. I want to have another child someday, and I just don't see it happening. Everything I offer him in terms of communication about my thoughts and feelings is used against me... it's the same dynamic as before he went into inpatient treatment.

I will pray.

Thanks again.

KLotus · Senior Member

...Ugh. So, I feel the need to clarify from my last post: When I mentioned being so exhausted from work and baby, I meant to say that I am the one who (from the beginning) has been the parent to our child full-time. My husband has struggled even to be kind to her at times, though he's better now. However, though I'm the only one working, she still goes to daycare, and I am still the full-time parent when she's with us. Not to mention, dealing with my AH's adolescent behavior.

The "maybe I shouldn't stick around" part was my way of being open and honest about having end-of-life thoughts. I don't want to feel this low anymore, and I've never so easily felt so hopeless before. I want the will and the joy of living back.

Thanks.

Pushka · ~*Service Worker*~

KL :) Hugs hon, once you start sticking to your own program of recovery I promise and I do mean promise if you work your program you will receive energy 10 fold. I am amazed at the things I did before and how tired and overwhelmed I felt. Be kind to yourself, you deserve kindness and compassion from yourself, no one gets it all done in a day when it comes to dealing with an addict in our lives. They have their own stuff to work through. You take care of you so you DO have energy. You can't give out everything and not fill your own cup up. You matter and you have needs that need to be met.

I'm a little taken back that his counselor wants you to hold him responsible for his actions. I don't understand what that means, I would personally want more clarification. I remember early on having a conversation with my pastor (I met with him privately) and at the time we (my AH and I) had started a class on marriage when we were both so not sure what to do ... and his response was you have to make him .. LOL .. I had a good laugh and said really? What would you like me to "make him" do because if I had a choice it would be to stop the insanity of addiction. The pastor chuckled and said that didn't come out right and rephrased what it was he really meant. Sometimes what we hear and what someone says needs to be clarified. I don't see his sobriety as a full time job for you. You are not responsible for him on that level. You are not the drink police, nor should you be.

Hugs, there is only one direction to go when you are looking up from the bottom and it's straight up. Hang tight and trust it's going to happen :)

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't think I agree with the counselor, if the counselor suggested that there be consequences for someone else's behavior - maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'm understanding it as, "If you do _____, then you can't (for example) have dinner with the family."

In my opinion, that puts one person in the parent role and assigns that person the responsibility of monitoring someone else's behavior. That's part of what got me sick in the first place. I'd set "boundaries," which I later discovered weren't boundaries at all - they were ultimatums. I'd say there would be some consequence (like, "I'll kick you out") and then I wouldn't follow through. All it did was cause tension and fighting. Not to mention, all the attempts I ever made to control/hold accountable any of the addicts in my life were a source of frustration and sickness for me. They didn't work, and I got sick. Part of what I've learned in the program is to hand all accountability for someone else's actions back to that person. I am accountable for MY actions, and that's it. I keep my side of the street clean and mind my own business. If someone else wants to act out, that is their choice. I'm not that person's HP.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the counselor was saying. If the consequences are really supposed to be directed at the other person, as opposed to an action that you will take to protect yourself, to me that sounds like an ultimatum or a control mechanism.

Just my .02 - take what you like and leave the rest.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Dear Klotus

The feelings you describe are exactly how I felt when I returned to alanon, in such pain, anger, sadness that I was willing to" go to any lengths'. It was my bottom and just possibly that is where you are now.

I know it is hard and you are tired but I urge you to please keep coming back, use the tools and live one day at a time.

As to a consequences for your husband when he crosses a boundary, I see your not engaging as a huge consequence. You will not keep the game going . He thrives on the chaos and the absence of an active partner will be consequences enough

Please be gentle with yourself

ELEKTRAWMN · Senior Member

Debilyn wrote:
I have shared after I realized it is just a stupid diseased brain talking, I would not get drawn in.
I am going to burn the house down, oh ok Babe the lighters are by the insense. I am going to leave. Ok Babe, there's the door.
I was fortunate mine never, ever put me down. At least to my face. If he had, I would have said,"Well you would know, you asked me to marry you."
Mostly I would keep my cool and walk away to get a drink of water, go read, go get into the shower, go take a nap with my pigs.....
Oh sounds like a problem, hope it can be figured out honey. Walk my cute wiggly bum out of the room.
A couple times I just went over and hugged him and kissed his neck. THAT really freaks them out.
Oh I get so excited when you talk to me like that! huh what??? lol
Hey this was after years of it and having Al Anon. I knew it was the disease I was talking to so I could be as nutty as it was.

This made me laugh. And I NEEDED to laugh tonight. I'm looking forward to the point of NOT engaging and having the willpower and strength to just walk away.

(((hugs))) to all of you. :)

-- Edited by ELEKTRAWMN on Friday 15th of July 2011 08:22:40 PM

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