Otie asked me to post on a few subjects, both in a thread, and in a PM, and they are so diverse I'd thought I'd split them up

12 stepping alcoholics/ ruining their drinking/ parents with alcoholic children

First of all, I am a firm believer in a few things:

The Three "C's"

I can't control them

I can't control them

I can't control them

oh...and I didn't cause it and I can't cure it

two: you can NOT 12 step a family member, parent, spouse or child yourself

My experience with this is vast, spans decades and is what landed me in Alanon...it just doesn't work

OK, first Parents with kids under 18:

A few years ago I went "home" and while I was visiting I went to my old home group, an old sponsee had told me there were quite a few "young people" and when I walked in I was amazed, there were 75? 100? kids from 15 to 25, most in their late teens and early twenties, I attended this meeting a number of times over the next six months, with myself and my brethren swallowed up by these crowds of kids in Sobriety and as I listened to their shares a pattern emerged, most of them had been put in rehab by their parents, they'd come out, stay sober for awhile then relapse, and for some reason the "relapses" almost always went poorly, like train wreck poorly, and it was the stark contrast between the short period of sobriety and the mind numbing pain and the pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization of the relapse that got their attention.

It took many of these kids repeated attempts at sobriety, with 3, 6, and 9 month stretches of abstinence followed by horrific relapses before sobriety stuck, but myself and most of my friends got sober in our early twenties and most have over 20 years of sobriety today, I've watched countless 100's of "young people" get sober and stay that way, and in countless cases it was those rehabs that their parents forced them into that seemed to yield no results that ultimately ruined their drinking

See what happens to an alcoholic after a period of Sobriety, not abstinence, but Sobriety with a Program is that it ruins our drinking, a bellyful of beer and a mind full of AA is a awfully demoralizing experience, not all get/got sober, but in every case it ruined their partying for those I ran into that "went back out", and many made it back

As alcoholics we think we don't have a choice or there is any other option, alcohol doesn't do something -to- us like it does normal people, it does something -for- us, a normal person has a few drinks and feels different, an alcoholic has a few drinks and feels "normal", a normal person drinks too much and feels ill, an alcoholic drinks too much and feels better, fears are lifted that have been carried all our lives with a few drinks in us, we aren't afraid of people or economic insecurity or emotional turmoil, but once we learn there is a solution, alcohol stops working, many return to drinking (I did for a few years and have talked to hundreds that share this experience) but alcohol never "works" the same way again

Ruining an alcoholics drinking and stopping protecting them from the consequences of their actions is the most loving thing anyone can do for an alcoholic, I have been watching my mother provide food and shelter for my sister for 25 years and all I see is my mother murdering her daughter by protecting her from the consequences of her actions, my mother thinks its love, calls it "love", but all I see is two women in my family murdering each other in their disease, both with "good intentions", my sister is once again a practicing addict with the emotional development of a 15 year old...she "relapsed" after 5 years of sobriety, she is stunted emotionally, and truthfully I lay the responsibility for that squarely at the feet of my mother, who would actually bring her bottles of wine from the store and bottles of vodka, because she was an "addict" right, not an alcoholic...sigh....without my mother rescuing and enabling my sister for the last 25 years my sister would have to face the consequences of her actions, the one time she got sober for five years was when she moved away from home and had a bottom my mother couldn't rescue her from, now the irony is all my mothers actions of enabling are fueled by her guilt for being a "bad mom" and she views her enabling as the...answer to that, as the...she thinks she is helping my sister when in fact she is killing her, and creating an environment that my niece is being raised in, thereby ensuring this behavior continues on for future generations....

Being "kind" and protecting an alcoholic from the consequences of their actions isn't "love" although we think it is, it's something different, something harmful, and in many cases, fatal, and then causes more "warped lives of blameless children" who in turn grow up and have more children who have "warped lives of blameless children"

I had far more anger to deal with and much more healing and work to do around the codependents and codependency in my family of origin work (including mine), as in my opinion codependency (mine AND others) caused me and and my family far more harm then the alcoholicism ever did, the alcoholic might be driving the bus, but codependency throws the children under the bus, who in turn grow up to drive more busses and throw others under the bus, my alcoholic father merely neglected me, my codie grandmother and mother harmed me for YEARS with emotional manipulations and mixed messages and...just so much...codependency is a life threatening disease as well IMO, my codependency nearly killed me and brought me more grief, pain, and despair then my alcoholism ever did, and was harder and more confusing to recover from, alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful, but codependency is insidious, it's "The Devil in a Sunday Dress" as Lafayette puts it in Trueblood

Now don't get me wrong, I was more often then nought my mothers instrument of rescue for my sister as I was sober, and I was unable to bring into play everything I had learned about alcoholism and codependency and was unable to properly bring in the required loving detachment and enforcement of boundaries with her as I was with people (men) I had met and sponsored in a program that begins and ends with anonymity, a concept frequently misunderstood but anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our program, which, how to explain, I can't bring the required level of unconditional love that the process of sobriety requires in dealing with family members, that's why we can't don't sponsor our mates or family members, because we can't, we are too enmeshed with them, there is help out there but it's not me when it comes to my family, as a matter of fact me trying is what landed me in Al-anon quite frankly, I got as sick or sicker then they were when I tried

If you read the guy who actually "wrote the book"...I mean....literally....wrote the book about getting alcoholics he makes some incredibly important points

It can't be "The Wife" or "The Husband" who twelve steps the alcoholic, or even the parent, it HAS to be another alcoholic, that is the very basis of the single most effective program the world has ever seen in human history, one alcoholic talking to another:

Anyone ever seen "Cyrano"? where Cyrano De Bergerac talks the words of love but has a handsome front man, the fair maiden falls in loves with the words but thinks she falls in love with the handsome lug?

I did twelve step some people that way once, it was a friend of mine (non alcoholic) and she'd show me emails from her ex-husband and talk about her hairdresser, and I'd show her the passages from the Big Book, I educated her about alcoholism, taught her all our little games and manipulations etc, told her what to say, how to say it, and I'll be go to hell she didn't 12 step her ex husband and her hairdresser, and they are both coming up on their second year of sobriety, so twelve stepping CAN be done, if you have Cyrano De Alcoholic standing in the bushes behind you whispering you your lines, but if you don't, here is "The Book"

"Working With Others"

When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out all you can about him. If he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity. This advice is given for his family also. They should be patient, realizing they are dealing with a sick person.

If there is any indication that he wants to stop, have a good talk with the person most interested in him usually his wife. Get an idea of his behavior, his problems, his background, the seriousness of his condition, and his religious leanings. You need this information to put yourself in his place, to see how you would like him to approach you if the tables were turned.

Sometimes it is wise to wait till he goes on a binge. The family may object to this, but unless he is in a dangerous physical condition, it is better to risk it. Don't deal with him when he is very drunk, unless he is ugly and the family needs your help. Wait for the end of the spree, or at least for a lucid interval. Then let his family or a friend ask him if he wants to quit for good and if he would go to any extreme to do so. If he says yes, then his attention should be drawn to you as a person who has recovered. You should be described to him as one of a fellowship who, as part of their own recovery, try to help others and who will be glad to talk to him if he cares to see you.

If he does not want to see you, never force yourself upon him. Neither should the family hysterically plead with him to do anything, nor should they tell him much about you. They should wait for the end of his next drinking bout. You might place this book where he can see it in the interval. Here no specific rule can be given. The family must decide these things. But urge them not to be over-anxious, for that might spoil matters.

Usually the family should not try to tell your story. When possible, avoid meeting a man through his family. Approach through a doctor or an institution is a better bet. If your man needs hospitalization, he should have it, but not forcibly unless he is violent. Let the doctor, if he will, tell him he has something in the way of a solution.

The whole chapter is chock full of good information, as is "More About Alcoholism"

Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals usually brief were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.

We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.

Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self- deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about- face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums we could increase the list ad infinitum.