Just curious/confused - Al-Anon Family Group

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Just curious/confused

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Pinkchip, PLEASE DON'T GO AWAY!! I will be so sad and discouraged if you do.

I look forward to your responses because they seem very level and direct to the point. And spot-on for the most part.

I might be wrong, but do I detect some burnout? Also, don't worry about "playing therapist" as you call it. If you are sincere, then you aren't playing. Everyone on here is trying to get help or to help others (often simultaneously). Your background as a therapist just causes you to operate in a certain style and allows you to look at situations through certain constructs that you are familiar with. Others have their own style and filters of observation. Yours is no less valuable than theirs-----and vice versa.

Your post is loaded with several heavy and thought provoking questions. They seem very pertinent to me because I have asked every one of them---either to myself or actually here in the posts---or sometimes comb the literature searching.

I think it is good to question at times. How else do we keep ourselves on an honest or steady course. Tearing of the hair just goes along with this process.

I wish to give my own responses to your questions, but it is quite late here in the East and I can't think at my best right now. I shall be back----after I have some time with sandman.

Take care for now, pinkchip. you are loved.

Respectfully and sincerely, Otie smile

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

mark, I have been without my Ah for years now. Found my serenity, I am so much healthier.

It does not bother me at all to share my experience, yet see others go back or step into the poo again.

I know people have to be ready. If they are not ready, it is so much harder on a person. If one has thought about things, have a plan, really give it thought. Then over time it hits them they are ready. It still hurts but its much easier to have a plan. If they go back, they just are not ready.

Its ok as every time it gets easier.

To me it is almost like rehab, sometimes it takes many rehabs to get to where you are ready to start a serious recovery program.

Mark to be honest I don't know how long I could have stayed with A. If he was not brain damaged from the brain surgery, I know things would have been different. I learned to be around him even when he was showing drunk behavior. I appreciated his body was still home. I looked for the little things to be thankful about.

I am easily pleased. Doesn't take much for me to be ok. I am very independant and know how to do everything for myself. So whatever he brought was xtra. I just wanted him.

big sigh, sadly he is a monster now and not anyone I would want around me or my animals.

Every situation is different. People are different. I think we just don't know if we don't give things a good go.To be honest Mark I am scared enough about ever getting married again, but for him to be drinking or an addict in recovery, not sure I could do it.

I have lost two wonderful men, men I adored to addiction. Not to mention so many friends, I am terrified.

For me I live my life, laugh, have fun, enjoy simplicity, love my HP,I don't want a realationship, but I don't not want one. If someone comes along that feels right, and over time it turns into just natural to get married great.

I want to say Mark, A or not, I won't sleep with anyone until I am married. that means all the attention goes to getting to know each other, having a deepening affection without the confusion of being sexual.

I believe I can really pay attention to the person, a or not.

Did i answer anything?? lol hugs hon,debilyn

Jennifer · ~*Service Worker*~

pinkchip wrote:
For those of you who have been through the gut wrenching pain of trying to make it work with someone with an active addiction (who will not try AA or keeps relapsing repeatedly) and then wound up ending things to save yourself and squeeze some serenity out of life, how do you listen and support a person who just is not there yet? How do you have patience to listen to the stories of being neglected, or flat out abused without wanting to shake the person and tell them they deserve better?

Hello Mark,

I find ways to listen and support as best I can because others did it for me. Had they not listened and given me access to the shared experiences and knowledge to gain back my sanity I do not know where I would be. As much as I want to say natural respect for other's choices is the reason for not giving advice or making decisions for anyone, this practice is actually part of my program ... I once thought I knew what was best for my exAH and learned I was wrong. I also have a feeling that if anyone had just handed me the answers they thought best, I would be sitting here thinking I did not know how to make or follow through on the decisions in my life. And believe me, I would have blamed thier bad advice for my miserable life just as much as I had blamed my exAH.

linbaba (thanks again linbaba) shared the information below in a post a few weeks ago. It made a big impression on me because life with my exAH had very similar threads running through it. All of the manipulation techniques the active use of alcohol etc caused fall inot one of these categories. Had I encountered a self help group, 12 step or therapist who added more of the same I would not have found my way to change what I can.

Jen

The following are some tips from the book by Lundy Bancroft called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. There's a section devoted to "Dealing with your own frustrations" and "What if She Doesn't Believe She is Being Abused?" that are also very helpful. Personally, I recommend buying or borrowing the book from the library. It's an eye-opening read. On to the book......

If you would like to make a significant difference in the life of an abused woman you care about, keep the following principle fresh in your mind..."Your goal is to be the complete opposite of what the abuser is".

The Abuser: Pressures her severely

So You Should: Be patient. Remember that it takes time for an abused woman to sort out her confusion and figure out how to handle her situation. It is not helpful for her to try to follow 'your' timetable for when she should stand up to her partner, leave him, call the police, or whatever step you want her to take. You need to respect her judgement regarding when she is ready to take action - something the abuser never does.

The Abuser: Talks down to her

So you Should: Address her as an equal. Avoid all traces of condescension or superior knowledge in your voice. This caution applies just as much or more to professionals. If you speak to an abused woman as if you are smarter or wiser than she is, or as if she is going through something that could never happen to you, then you inadvertently confirm exactly what the abuser has been telling her, which is that she is beneath him. Remember, your actions speak louder than your words.

The Abuser: Thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does

So You Should: Treat her as the expert on her own life. Don't assume that you know what she needs to do. I have sometimes given abused women suggestions that I thought were exactly right but turned out to be terrible for that particular situation. Ask her what she thinks might work and, without pressuring her, offer suggestions, respecting her explanations for why certain courses of action would not be helpful. Don't tell her what to do.

The Abuser: Dominates conversations

So You Should: Listen more and talk less. The temptation may be great to convince her what a 'jerk' he is, to analyze his motives, to give speeches covering entire chapters of this book. But talking too much inadvertently communicates to her that your thoughts are more important than hers, which is exactly how the abuser treats her. If you want her to value her own feelings and opinions, then you have to show her that you value them.

The Abuser: Believes he has the right to control her life

So You Should: Respect her right to self-determination. She is entitled to make decisions that are not exactly what you would choose, including the decision to stay with her abusive partner or to return to him after a separation. You can't convince a woman that her life belongs to her if you are simultaneously acting like it belongs to you. Stay by her even when she makes choices that you don't like.

The Abuser: Thinks for her

So You Should: Think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.

Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with, "Don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him; you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

This is very helpful guys/gals.... Mostly, I am on an ever lasting quest to better understand myself and others. This is my spiritual, professional, and personal journey. This does help me a lot. Just questions I have been wrestling with. A big thing I have learned from this board is to try and be less judgmental but sometimes I feel like I'm slipping.

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

sooooooo timely for me, as I had recently considered closing my membership here.

Why?

I found myself reacting. Like, strongly getting attached to the outcomes. I was feeling disappointed.

I had to do an inventory. Dammit. When I have a problem, the problem is ME, I hate that sometimes. I realized I had a motive to "help"... or more honestly... to "fix." I forgot that I am only a channel for Higher power to help..... HP does the helping and fixing.... the healing, not me. There is no way I can lead a horse to water if they don't wanna go, I don't have that kind of power. And, no one can do it for me either.

I forgot.

It was an innocent mistake. I forgot that my codependency is the same dis-ease as my other addictions... same, same.... me looking for another "high." Today I feel much better remembering my powerlessness, I am released of the responsibility to play god and save anyone. My job is to wake up every morning and STAY (like a good doggie) in powerlessness, the bedrock of my recovery.

Thanks for the post......... I think, LOL!! Well, what is it they say? I can't save my face and my a** at the same time?? hehe

Love you, my friend.

-- Edited by glad lee on Saturday 4th of June 2011 08:03:31 AM

Otie · Senior Member

Hi folks. I am actually responding (in large part) to glad lee;

That is part of the problem with this pesky "free will" business. It makes it very difficult to lead horses to water. HOWEVER, I, for one, am not above sneaking salt into the oats.

Please, don't anyone get their knickers in an uproar----I am but a comedian with a day job.

Peace

Love

Otie smile

Otie · Senior Member

Hi. (again) folks. This time I am being serious.

Pinkchip, I hear what you are saying. It is my opinion that you are doing just as you should. If you are feeling unsetteled inside on the issue of judgement you SHOULD wrestle with it until you reach peace of mind on it. I don't know how long it will take. But, for your own personal integrity I don't see that you have any other good option. I posted the same question about 11/2 wks. ago.

You are the captain of your ship.

Love, Otie smile

-- Edited by Otie on Saturday 4th of June 2011 08:21:56 AM

Crazy Frog · Veteran Member

Mark
I have not been at al anon for long but I had the exact same questions as you yesterday
I am choosing to leave my relationship I believe I had chosen that path long before attending al anon the more I work the program the more questions I have my ah denies having a pb that's fine I work my program because I have a problem.
I an not angry at him anymore I am powerless I love him as a friend not as a husband could I keep living with him as is the answer is no. But it is a personal opinion and choice
The reasons are lack of emotional and physical intimacy are in the way of living a fulfilling relationship but I also have changed and realized it doesnt work for me
Sometimes I am overwhelmed by the what Ifs scenarios but I can't live in fantasy anymore.
So I understand your dilemma there is no reason why one cannot live in such a relationship it takes work from both sides it's a balancing act.
All the best in your quest

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

HI Mark I understand you concern and like the question.

I do believe that the FIRST STEP is the key In alanon we believe that we are POWERLESS over People,Places. and Things.

If I have truly taken this step I would understand that trying to force solutions and giving my advise and opinions DOes NOT WORK This is exactly what I am trying to recover from in alanon.

My husband was in and our to 10 detoxs in 2 years before he finally became sober in AA. I am a long standing member of alanon and have no difficulty sharing my ESH with people. I know that life is a journey as you say and that pointing out "MY REALITY" and Opinion to someone else is not how alanon works

Everyone must be able to go inward and find their own answers and path. I am not here too give them the answers that I found, I can only give them the tools I used to recover. They in term can pick up the tools try them out and then find what is important to them and what they need to do in their life. I love the alanon slogan

UTILIZE and DO NOT analyze. It reminds me that everyone must act on the tools before recovery can take place. This is why we do not give advise.

Living by principles is sometimes difficult and being"Happy" and eating a steak sandwich is good once in a while but life requires many difficult tasks and responsibilities that do not create instant "Happy" .Living up to responsibilities does create self esteem which is more important to functioning in the long run. Alanon tools have taught me how to do that, with compassion, understanding and empathy

I believe that Happiness is an inside job and people can be happy if the alcoholic is drinking or not. Alanon has taught me to see the glass half full not half empty, to appreciate a flower, and bird and the sunset My happiness is overflowing when I am in the moment and the day With HP I can live and respect my obligations and be supported by HP and my program.

Keeping the focus on myself I can support newcomers as they explore their path. Accepting that everyone as exactly where they should be and knowing that alanon is a fellowship of equals enables me to share my journey without giving advice or my opinion.

I do believe that HP has a Plan for each of us and it is not my job to translate what that is.

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 4th of June 2011 08:51:19 AM

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 4th of June 2011 09:48:35 AM

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for this great thread! I have used this board to sort out issues I have had over the last six years- and everytime I did start one, I was humbled and given much to ponder, the board helped me work out so many of my issues (and patterns) that once ruled my thoughts. They still tend to come up, and for me identifying what is a judgement - would allow me the opportunity to release it. I am still releasing pain from the past and my childhood.

Im acoa and I have ADHD- which means I obsess waaaayyy more than most obsessed people do... it is a constant thing I try to keep in balance, by mostly putting my issue to me- why does this make me uncomfortable? and who am I to judge their lives or know what is healthiest for them in their immediate situation. Alanon is all about YOU and figuring that out for yourself (so that you make your own choices, become empowered and stop having the convenient pattern/excuse of being stuck as a victim-(unable to voice my needs, know the self, know reality, and have boundaries to protect me and allow me to have emotional autonomy from others). No one appreciates being told what to do, in fact that is how we all get resentments built up. When we share ESH here, we describe what we have done & worked in our own lives. Others get to apply it or not-everything is a choice.

It is an immediate red flag for me, when my thoughts go to someone else-- be it their state of mind or one of their life choices -- that is none of my business or concern. So, yes that would be a slip for me. Slips are a part of growth and they give me the opportunity to re-commit to working it for myself. Slips let us re-evaluate what we are doing or not doing and what is working/not working.

I know I sure hated it when that unsolicited advice came my way bc the moment they are telling you how to be- they are no longer being great role models for what works best. I am also reminded that for the grace of god, go I- bc it wasnt that long ago that my life was a living helll and I was lost in the shuffle of other's needs, wants, issues & unresolved feelings/junk.

If I am not actively working it for me- Imma slipping basically. When I recognize that, I turn my focus back to me. Or I simply feel the emotion through - look to the self to trace it to its source and then be honest and willing enough to let it go through forgiveness work and guidance/help of my HP/god. Once I identify a thing as being from me (the feelings or thoughts) then and only then, can I become willing to release it- this makes me think of the 3 A's: awareness, acceptance & action. I fouind that by accepting others and allowing them the dignity to be them and figure out themselves- offered me that dignity too-- then I began devloping actual respect for our human condition. I have to be compassionate to me (and not perfect) before I can convey that to others. Im still a work in progress! Boundaries allow me to see what is me -and- what is not me-they allow me to stay on my own side of my life and program, which helps me not get tangled up in what are doing in the first place.

It helps to boundary outcomes or to relase all expectations of them. If I am sad or depressed or disappointed- again- I quickly look at me and ask my tried and true magic question: What can I do to allow me to feel better right now or will improve my situation? Then I do that thing, focus on my changes and I do feel empowered. Practice not judging others or at least when you id it-- forgive and let it go a lil bit more. The only authority for us all -individually- is HP/god.

-- Edited by kitty on Saturday 4th of June 2011 08:59:20 AM

Otie · Senior Member

Dear pinkchip, your post has been occupying much of my braintime since last night. It resonates so much with me.

I promise that this is my last comment for a while.

I do have a great deal of trouble when I see that children are left steeping in the middle of the caos that their parents have created. I find myself wanting to grab them by the collar and slam them against the wall while I deliver a "Come to Jesus" lecture. I want to scream---they have NO VOICE/NO CHOICE!---consider the effect of active addiction on them for the rest of their lives.

I really have to contain myself. I'll bet that many others who respect the sanctity of children feel the same way.

I will be interested to read any replys to this. I know they are coming.

Respectfullly submitted, Otie

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

hahaha Otie! ;; )

I know what you mean about the kids asepct-- bc I remember exactly how it felt being a kid in those situations.

Unfortunately, when other adults get to seeing our situation, they empathize and then they have this big over reaction emotionally and then they are also-- there causing emotional conflict and a scene -- which to the kids-- just looks like no one understands what we are going through and that all adults are emotionally and power crazy or unstable.

It also puts the kids in a very awkward sitauton bc even though the kids are feeling hurt or ignored-- if others criticize the parents (or care givers) the kids take that on personally. We feel we are a relflection of our parents- we are a part of them and if anyone puts our parent/s down, we want to defend them bc they are also putting us down.

No one is going to "win" by getting in between a child and their parent/s - at any age. That is a losing battle and it shows a lack of boundaries and disprespect on the part of the adult trying to interere, intervene and help out.

Compound that fact with-- the child then does not want their parent to "get in trouble" (or whatever) so the kid then lies, covers up and does anything to protect the parent and dismiss their own needs and issues... which is why it can be so hard (as adults in recovery) to trace them and get to the core of our own issues-- bc we are so good at defending, justifying and protecting others, all the while we continue to abandon and neglect ourselves, bc we love others so much. We do feel overly responsible for our own parents and kids and getting perspective, balance and health in that regard takes a lot of brutally honest and fearless love and forgiveness work with the self & HP/god.

Recovery is not for wimps- I got mad and stuck often in my early program (first 1-5 yrs) and I was annoyed that I would "have" to keep coming to alanon and working it forever-- but the fact is, the thoughts and reactive thought patterns dont go automatically away- we have to (or get to) work through them (bc no one else will or can do it for us) and we continue to work through them. These are coping tools for life and the second I stop using what I have learned in alanon, is the second I slip big time.

So I guess the best way to help a kid or an A or an alanon with an active A -- is to listen, accept what you hear, love and not judge them about any of it, so that they can feel confident to continue to share and work on it.

One thing is for sure- codependency is not just for alanons -- today I see all A's as codependent enablers too and we have way more in common then I ever wanted to admit previously. Now I see it is the same thing- people not wanting to take self responsibility and accountability and people unwilling to stop judging and thinking they know it all or what is best. Alanon is all about YOU. We can only rescue and fix~ ourselves but the beauty of program is when we truly get it and stop jumping in to other's messes -- eventually they will come to you, to ask what and how you did it.

Being a role model and working it for me and owning it to the best of my ability-- is way more affective and effective-- then anything else I had ever done previously. By not judging and by offering dignity and respect... people will gravitate to you bc they want the accpetance, peace, forgiveness and understanding you have. Know that only they can grasp it for themselves. The lucky thing for the kids is: one day when they become an adult, they can live the way that supports and nurtures them in their own lives and learn to love and respect others as they are too- just like we get to do right here and now.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

There is that word again! "try"

DO! I will be less judgmental.

(c:

You are valuable here, we need you and you LOVE us! Don't ya? I have seen you grow so much since you have been here. The way it was at first you kinda freaked me out! lol

Like you I have to be careful, I learned from this very special psychiatrist to use the word invite. I like that. Its so smooth and not pushy.

It's always ok to take a break if you like. I sure have. But I have found this to be such a part of me to come here.

hugs, and duct taping you to your chair! debilyn

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi pinkchip,

It's evident that you are very sincere; I see that in your posts and replies. I jump over to the AA board and read the threads there. I like to get the perspectives of the recovering alcoholics.

I understand your frustration and zero tolerance when it comes to children. I work with children, too.

You received a lot of excellent replies already. I especially like the information given by Jennifer, regarding the abuser. I think that is well worth considering and possibly integrating into your practice.

I've always valued your post and reponses; they've given me food for thought. I hope you keep coming back. Perhaps you need a little break for now.

Take care, GailMichelle

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

Mark,

I understand your concerns. Wanting to help others is in our DNA. Many times here on MIP and in my f2f meetings I "feel" I know exactly what a person need to do to correct their problem. But I ask myself this question. Why do I think I know the answer to someone else's problem when for years I didn't have the answers to my own problems? It puts things in the right perspective, gets my mind right. I can only offer my ES&H, what worked for me. Ollie used a metaphor about putting salt in the horses oats. Maybe ES&H is the same as sprinkling a small amount of salt in the oats. Giving advice is more like pouring a whole bag of salt into the oats. To much salt and the horses might be afraid to come back and eat the oats.

"Have you seen anyone really be truly happy and fulfilled yet stay with someone who is an active alcoholic or addict?"

My wife is an active alcoholic. Did the word divorce ever cross my mind? Did I ever wonder if I could be happy whether the alcoholic in my life was drinking or not? Do I want to be #1 in my wife's life? Do I accept that I am not? Is my wife a good womam? Do I love and accept her as she is? The answers to those questions many similar questions are all yes. With the program working it and practicing it to the best of my ability I have been able to have serenity, peace of mind, and be happy. It's an inside job with the help of my HP and the support this program offers. My wife has a disease that I will never fully understand, a cunning, baffling, powerful, disease. I am powerless. Over time by making little changes in me using the tools of the program, keeping all the focus on myself, always taking care of myself first, changing my body language, and turning my alcoholic over to my HP 100% then getting out of his way has allowed my life to get better. Yes I am truly happy and I give all the credit to this program along with the help and guidance of my HP.

Mark you received great feedback and ES&H form many members of MIP. You are a valued member of this board and have much to offer. You showed that in the wording and awareness of your post, reminding me once again that we are all here for each other.

In Support,
RLC

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

We stay for many reasons ,some are listed here ,there was never any physical abuse in my marriage so it was much easier for me . In Al-Anon I learned how to stop the verbal abuse by standing up and saying enough and learned to walk away ,you cannot argue if there is only one person in the room . I learned to make myself happy durring the 3 yrs in program before husb sought sobriety ,did i want him with us in those 3 yrs ? yes of course I did but I learned to make my plans and to not plan the outcome , I learned to do it anyway with or with out him . I also have to be honest here and I stayed for some purley selfish reasons my husb was a great provider we lived well and I simply was not prepared to give up and settle for half , I knew I could not provide for my sons on my own , I promised myself I would work this program to the best of my ability for one year and if things werent better i would leave the yr came and went quickly and I was truly much happier when I learned to back off and allow him the dignity to do his life the way he chose while I got on with mine . This program has improved every relationship in my life today I am a better mother , wife and I learned how to be a friend . 3 yrs after comming to this program my husb sought sobriety ,we have 20 yrs in our home now and alot of improvments I am truly greatful that I chose to stay in my marriage and I could not have done this with out the support of program people .. Do I ever want to lean across the table and shake people yes often hehe but have learned that we all come to our own conclusions eventually, what they dont need is me telling them what to do with thier lives so you just practice patience and tolerance and know that if they keep comming back thier lives too will change for the better. For me the best way to support is by example . I am no where near Mrs Perfect nor is my marriage but I am happy joyous and free . Louise

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

"Just trying to grow, get feedback, and be helpful rather than judgmental. I know I have stuff to offer here but I do think it gets lost in how I say it sometimes."

That's good...been there and doing that by coming back, keeping and open mind, listening, learning, practicing, practicing, practicing.

We are not perfect and none of us know everything about everything and certainly I am not God or a god on any level. The program takes constant participation and commitment. It isn't only about being a servant and like your post and wishes it is about being here to be served as long as I come back, keep and open mind, listen, learn and practice.

Before the program my ego and pride was huge and false. I tried to do something(s) to correct a condition I had no idea about. I knew nothing about it and besides, Al-Anon, College, and AA plus some other support systems I have learned and still don't know everything about it...I still need others Hooray!! double benefit cause I get to love and be loved in the process which is for me my HP's will and also my HP's name and behavior.

Curious and confused are assets for those who want to learn and feel aware and serene and that partly comes from following the suggestions. Got a Al-Anon Sponsor and HP? people wiser and more experienced than Mark? If not follow thru. What I know and what I have learned and what I have as experienced isn't the end all to someone elses support. Sometimes all it means to others is that I have spent a lot of time doing and learning stuff that isn't helpful for them. "We are not perfect and we are not saints"..."We do the best we can with what we have and sometimes it isn't appropriate and doesn't help and doesn't work for any of many reasons...we don't have control and happiness isn't from other people following thru and living according to our wills. If I get back into that mode of thought and feelings I have to inventory and ask myself "What program of support are you in and why"....duh.

Our recovery is a recovery of service and being served. It for me is the practice of "Humility" being teachable and giving away without expectations.

I practice remembering the lessons of perception...Often times I'm too close to the picture to see what is in it beyond my nose and then often times I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. I need to back away from it even far enough that the frame is off and what I am looking at is in relation to all things around me.

This fellowship is much much more than just me. I am so much more grateful often for what another MIP member has shared to another than what I thought would have sounded good coming from my own experience and mouth.

Al-Anon is Social-model recovery therapy...shared experiences, shared thought with an open mind. Rigid opinions to people who have come from hurt, pain and a multitude of negativity over a long period of time don't work from my experience. I have been told in the past that my opinions stated the way I use to state them (without understanding and compassion) sounded very like and from "their" alcoholic partner. Ugh...not what I want to happen.

Change it. Listen to what your sponsor and others have done to correct their lives and find serenity and do that...let go of what you do that doesn't work.

Always keep coming back...with an open mind and willingness to change.

Stick around with your changes Mark...this isn't clinical therapy. ((((hugs)))) smile

danielle0516 · Senior Member

Hey Mark... Please don't leave!!! I look forward to your posts and replies, as I'm sure many do... actually, since you and Lin ventured over here... I no longer find myself creeping the AA boards as often.. ;) You both offer such a unique perspective. Also, you ask fantastic questions and I love these threads you get going.

I haven't been around long enough to comment on weather most ppl, after being in program for a while, stay or leave an active alcoholic. I would like to think I would not stay, and I think I was about ready to leave before he went to rehab, but, I'll never know if I actually would have. I was so so worried and scared to death all the time and always filled with so much panic (so bad that I thought I was dying sometimes) that who knows, leaving him to live or die on the streets in the winter would have probably almost killed me. But, I also know I did him no favors by allowing him to live comfortably in this house. And I did kick him out, and he chose detox then rehab... but I wonder, if he did not choose that path, if he chose to continue to drink and pop Vicodin, and came knocking at my door in the middle of the night freezing, would I have been able to turn him away? I'm just very happy he chose recovery cause it saved me from having to make either an incredibly hard (not taking him in) or 'wrong' (letting him come back) decision.

I do know if you asked me 5 years ago if I would stay with someone who was irresponsible, selfish, untrustworthy, drunk all day, ect.... I would have said HELL NO. Well, I would have been wrong...or, would I have? How long, if at all, would it have taken me to leave? Just like in AA, I suppose it takes what it takes.

It's so easy for people to say what they *would* do in any given situation. But I firmly believe that unless you are actually faced with that situation, you can't answer it in any real way because you have not experienced the journey and all the emotions that went along with it.

Pointing out cognitive distortions (btw, is that a fancy psychological term? I like how it sounds... would make a good band name! haha).. anyway, I personally am not offended when you point these out, I know for me, sometimes I need to hear it, I sometimes want or need someone to be blunt and not pussy foot around the bush about it hoping I'll get the point or see what I'm doing. (although, I know everyone has their own approaches and that's great, I like a mix). Even when you point them out, you're still offering strength and hope and being compassionate.

The never pointing stuff out - sometimes annoyed me in therapy... I get the whole own journey thing and needing to realize stuff on my own, having my own aha moment, my own path, but I almost felt too therapized or analyzed, like I could feel it was happening, like she was employing some text book technique and I wanted to know what it was! haha.. and I remember often just wanting the therapist to point out what I was doing. But, I also think it's a balancing act because if she sat there constantly pointing out all my flaws...I would have felt attacked and probably never have gone back. It really is a process and a journey. Everyone's own journey. Looking back, in the beginning, I remember how I used to mostly justify and defend my actions/thoughts/behaviors and now I'm wanting to understand them, recognize the unhealthy ones, learn and move forward. I recognize what and when I'm doing something and own it, not justify it away like I'm a perfect angel and can do no wrong and all my problems are the rest of the worlds fault. Huge similarity, among many, I think between codies and addicts - everything is everyone elses's fault, feeling victimized.

I sometimes feel the urge to ''shake sense'' into people, to say something along the lines of "just leave him, you deserve better"... but I always refrain from this. I LOVE that this program gives no advise because if everyone told me to leave him when I came to alanon, I would have left alanon -- I heard enough of the advise and telling me what to do from everyone else in my life. Also I think it's so easy for 'outsiders' to tell someone else what to do as they aren't the ones who have to do it. Easier said than done.

Thanks for posting and getting this conversation started:) I thumbs up Like button it. :)

Danielle

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Not going anywhere folks. Mainly, I think I needed to step up my AA program some, as I tend to get judgmental and cranky when I am not focusing enough on self-care. That is when I start doling out advice and getting judgmental.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.