New here, needing help understanding the alcoholic's thinking process - Al-Anon Family Group

Wifey · Newbie

New here, needing help understanding the alcoholic's thinking process

flopadopilus · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi there and Welcome to MIP. Not sure if you are going to face to face Al-anon meetings, but that is definitely 1 place I hear stories very similar to mine and where I found my sponsor who gives me great advice. After saying that it sounds like control from your AH= alcoholic husband to me. I gave up my horses a couple years ago to lighten the burden on my AH financially thinking he would than not be able to blame me for there expenses any longer and quit drinking, but it didn't work. He found other things to compare his drinking to that I had in my life. So with that said, stick around and read other people's shares and you will get some great insights. Keep coming back and don't blame yourself or your animals for his behavior. Keep what you like and leave the rest.

DreamXL · Senior Member

wifey :) blaming his addiction on the pets, omg lol...now that is just down right nuts :) guessing here... but knowing you love your pets like your children it sounds like a convenient thing to say knowing you wouldnt part with them and therefore he wouldnt have to stop drinking......I sure hope your not considering this...if pets caused it , pets could cure it :) glad your here and keep coming back ...

GailMichelle · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome!

Hang on to your animals! You could get rid of them and promise him the moon. It won't make a difference. You know that.

I was married 36 years, recently divorced (not advocating divorce). The last decade was the worst. I went to private counseling for years; it did help.

However, I just began attending Al-Anon meeting just last month. Meetings make a world of difference. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have attended meetings as suggested a LONG time ago! I didn't think they were for me. I was so wrong.

HIGHLY recommend finding Al-Anon meetings in your area. Try at least 6. Try more than one group if necessary. The pyschologist that I've seen over the years is great; however, I get so much more from meetings. I hope you think about it. There are online meetings here, too. Others will tell you about them.

-- Edited by GailMichelle on Tuesday 26th of April 2011 11:03:23 PM

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to Miracles In Progress,

If you get rid of your pets. If you give in to his ultimatums. If you give him a reason to stop. If a bullfrog had wings............

GailMichelle offered you suggestions above that can and will change your life. She is giving you her experience, strenght, and hope.....what has worked for her. It's called giving back to others what the program has given them.

This program won't change your husbands drinking habits or stop him from drinking. It will make your life better whether the alcoholic in your life is drinking or not. You have nothing to lose. Find a meeting in your area. You don't have to be alone in the disease anymore.

HUGS to you and your pets
RLC

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

That ultimatum is called blaming and manipulation and control...it happens all the time in this disease of alcoholism because the drinking has to continue. It owns him and he will not stop until he has the capacity to be honest with himself and others that he does have a drinking problem and might also be alcoholic and then willing to go get help like you have already done here. I've hear a ton of "If you would...I would(s)" and never the "get rid of the pets line". Was almost thinking that he's told you you love them more than you love him and that maybe he drinks because of his loss of your love. I've heard that one a couple of times.

The face to face meeting rooms of Al-Anon is where I got my mind and butt back after loosing both to the disease. Not suggesting that you've lost yours and those rooms are the best in my experience for the family, friends and associates of alcoholics who suffer from a fatal, cunning, powerful and baffling disease.

Understanding the alcoholics thinking process takes the awareness that the brain is under the influence of a mind and mood altering chemical so you won't be starting from sanity but the opposite. If he has been drinking for 30 years he has missed a lot of life lessons and has forgotten where he has left the manual on how to use his brain. It is under the influence just like the rest of him. Noted physicians have been stumped by the alcoholic's mind. Focus on your own peace of mind and serenity and meetings. In support (((((hugs))))) smile

KimmyJo · Veteran Member

I had a life alot like yours...Married to alcoholic

They are "SICK" and need help. Which only they can do for themselves.

You and I become "Sick" just like them: We tend to believe them

and let them control our lives, behaviors, feelings and emotions.

I use to think, OH ALANON, what the hell do I need that for?

Well, Im glad I went, it saved ME from going completely crazy...

It taught me, just how sick I was and it showed me how

much I have been wounded. It gives me the tools for my

own recovery..Now 5 months later, I can breath and learning

to love myself & life...

When alcoholics say things like that, we tend to call it "QUACKING"

If you put the pets to sleep, he will only have A NEW REASON to drink.

Quack, Quack...

Dont give him a NEW REASON to drink!!!

Find yourself a ALANON class A.S.A.P

It really helps to hear others in Alanon with the same stories as yours

It will give you a peace of mind!!

Remember, he is sick and so are you.

It is your choice to get yourself better!!!! *RUN to the next Alanon class****

Being a pet lover myself, I would think, it might make more sense

if he was to be put down. (ha ha)

When he begins to talk like that, leave the room...(He's a alcoholic)

Katy · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh my, my husband was four years sober last year, when he became fixated and jelous of my cockatial, I have always loved animals more than people, he became paraniod about it, I was having her out less and less and it was making me ill, I took the desicion to give her to an animal farm, when he came home the night she was gone he went into moan mode without realising she wasn't there, it was quite some time before he realised she wasn't, it was a HUGE thing for me to do, I weighed up the pros and cons, and figured it was in her best interest to let her go where she could fly free and be with other birds and also I could go see her without feeling all chewed up, the thing is watch the resentment I did feel it, it's not about the animals, it's about them, it's very hard my bird was my comfort, I would say this is normal for an A, very common, but they will apply their displeasure to anything and everything, mine used to say he needed to go out for a drink because my knitting needles were giving him an headache, all I can say is in your heart you will know deep down.

regards

Katy

x

Freya · Veteran Member

Hi Wifey, welcome to MIP. What I've learned since attending face to face meetings and being in MIP is that alcoholism causes the alcoholic to be irrational and to fixate on different things that can be blamed for their problems. I've also learned that the person dealing with an alcoholic day in day out learns to become irrational themselves because they're surrounded by chaos. I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do about your animals, I just know that I wouldn't make a choice to get rid of animals I loved if I was basing that decision on information coming from someone who was being irrational and blaming. In my experience there is always a reason to blame the other person if we're not taking responsibility for ourselves. I don't know that I could sit with myself if I had animals I loved put down and then heard my partner find another reason to blame me for his drinking. It has also been my experience that on this journey to recovery we need all the love and friendship we can get, whether that comes from people or furry friends. My two cats have sat with me while I cried, and have curled up on my lap and given me love when I needed it most.

Take care,
Freya

Katy · ~*Service Worker*~

Can I just say? We had had a pet free home for quite some time during the latter years of my husbands drinking career, when he became sober, we were out shopping and my daughter suggested we go in a petshop, hubby would refuse point blank to go in usually, but on this accasion he came in, this cockatial just cried out in my mind buy me buy me, it kept popping it's head up and down and peeping, my daughter said Dad? can we have it, nope he said, daughter wouldn't let up, then she said when we got home, dad is sober now he has changed I'm going to ask him if we can have it, I said look, you will be going back to university soon I wil be left with him and it, if he agrees it won't be because he wants it it will be more to apeasing us and you know what he is like, narhhhhhhh she said lets try it, I said look lets think about this, it's a baby it's hand reared, it will be on it's own, I don't like shutting animals in cages so it wil have tol be allowed to fly around, and I thought but I could love it and it would be my companion and so I said look if it's still there and dad agrees well ok then.

So it came home, it was soooooooooo clever, it would do the door opening in the morning sound, followed by the kettle boiling and the pouring of water into the cup, it, did the tinkle sound the spoon made when you stirred, and it loved me unconditionally, now the thing was when I wasn't there it was fine with anyone, but as soon as it saw or heard me it would attack anyone holding it, it really would turn evil, it fetched blood a few times, anyhooooooo it began to have a high pitched squeal for attention, and it was naughty,it did land in hubbies dinner a few times, and? launch at him when he came in a room and he would throw his coffee all over himself, it also took to using his bold head as a landing pad, and would scrawk his head up, but what I really want to say is, I knew what would happen, and my part was I knew I knew, still went and got her though, before I made the decison to let her go, I asked myself really why did you get her? and it was to have someting to love, I didn't concider her and that I would become her world and I was being selfish, before I did take her though I tried all sorts, putting her in different rooms, but my pets are family and that felt wrong.

The thing is, we try so much in our descovery of the truth, if a person is happy they don't bother what someone else is doing they are too busy with their own life, and when dealing with alcholism the truth is skewed, once when I went to see her she came to the wire for a kiss, this bloke said wow she is tame, I said yep she was mine, he said why did you get rid of her then? I said it was her or hubby, he said it should of been hubby, I said yep, when he goes she's coming home!

I think it's a control manipulation thing is all, I used to sit reading my courage to change book with her sat on it, she has perferated the whole edge.

This is only my opinion one size does not fit allx

katy

x

Otie · Senior Member

Dear Wifey. We are not supposed to give advice on these boards. But, dear Wifey, I am going to speak straight from my heart to you---even if they kick me off this board!!!

Those innocent animals give you unconditional love at all times. You said that you love them like your children. Would you take the lives of you children to please him---an alcoholic "quacking".

If you do, I predict that it will backfire on you and you will live with the regret for the rest of your life!! In the moment, it might feel good to appease him or to be passive-agressive in the hopes that you can shame him later for his request-----But innocent animals will suffer and, later you will suffer.

As a confessed animal lover, think through what I am saying. My words might sound harsh---but, lives are at stake. Stand your ground. Be strong. Another member just said it well: "Leave the room, he is a alcoholic QUACKING"

Respectfully, Otie

-- Edited by Otie on Wednesday 27th of April 2011 08:02:01 AM

Wifey · Newbie

Thank you all...I think I knew in my heart it was booze talking and irrational thinking, but so many times I begin to doubt myself. I wish I could attend an Al-anon meeting in the flesh, but certain circumstances make that fairly impossible. I'm looking into the online meetings, though. Perhaps I can pull those off...
Thank you again for your kind words everyone. It does help knowing there are people out there who completely understand where I am emotionally and will offer support. Sometimes I feel so alone in this.

tommyecat · ~*Service Worker*~

Wifey,

As others have suggested, face to face meetings are really the best. Alanon world service organization has a directory of Online meetings as well as phone meetings. If you want support, you can contact them to get the information. Simply provide your email address and they will forward that info to you.

You had a question on the pets. I am unable answer that question for you. I cannot place my feet in your shoes which is why Alanon is a suggestion program based on members experience, strength, and hope. However, I will share with you what I do regarding major decisions in my life. I ALWAYS ask my self this question:

Is It In MY Best Interest?

If the answer is No, then do nothing. I hope that helps.

White Rabbit · ~*Service Worker*~

If it were only a matter of "I'll give up alcohol if you give up something you love," none of us would be here. I think we've all been willing to do whatever we could to get someone else sober. As we all know, nothing we did worked. Including giving up stuff.

If someone wants to get sober, they will get sober regardless of external circumstances - pets, location, whatever. If they don't want to get sober, they will find any reason to keep drinking - drink because they had a bad day, drink to celebrate a good day, drink because life is hard, drink because the sky is blue ... whatever.

Bottom line is, none of us have the power to make anyone else stop drinking. It doesn't matter what kind of deal we make with an alcoholic.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Giving up your pets is not going to change anything. He is physically and mentally addicted to alcohol and that will not stop without him taking some drastic steps such as going to AA or rehab. It sounds to me like a tit for tat (you don't like my drinking...I don't like your pets).

The two are completely separate issues. I do think you should both look into couples counseling instead of doing this type of bargaining that is only going to wind up with both of you mad at each other. Of course if he is determined to be a drunk, couples counseling wont work too well.

Loving animals is great, but one thing to watch out for is that you don't take all the love that you feel is missing from your marriage and try and get those needs met by the animals. That is what I see too commonly from people who are stuck in a rut with their relationships and they are not getting their needs met by actual people. Yes, animals are wonderful and a rewarding bond is to be had with them, but you only live once and a meaningful and functional relationship is important too.

RunnerMom · Member

Wifey wrote:
My current situation is this: AH says he will stop drinking cold turkey if I get rid of my pets, whom he hates.
That is a lot of B.S. After you get rid of your pets and he fails to stop drinking it will be bc of something else you are/aren't/need to do. Do NOT bargain with a terrorist. Alcoholics aren't terrorists obviously but it's the same mentality... (in my opinion)
On the one hand, I feel like this is an ultimatum coming from a drunk who has never gone more than a dozen days without caving in and drinking,
Yup, that's it.

"but on the other hand I have to wonder if he's in the right. "
Or could it be that you know it's not likely that he's in the right but you really want him to get sober and are willing to believe or hope that THIS (getting rid of the pets) MIGHT JUST be the "thing" that makes that happen? I've been there. Nothing you do will make him get sober. All that getting rid of your pets will do is make you sad and then when he doesn't get sober, make you resentful... Please don't.
"Maybe that's the fair thing for me to do, since his biggest problem with me seems to be my animals...maybe with them gone, he won't be so angry and won't drink as much. "
It would be awesome if it were this simple. But if it were I bet you would have been able to figure out a way to help him be less angry and drink less a long time ago. I'm sad for you and know what you're going through. His biggest problem is NOT the animals and NOT you. His biggest problem is he is an alcoholic and alcoholics project their problems onto anything, anyone and everything around them.
Maybe he's right that they're unnecessary expenses. Then again, maybe he's just trying to enforce a childish game of tit for tat. I have to give up something I'm fond of, so you should have to, as well.
Your animals aren't an addiction, they aren't killing you, they aren't ruining your relationships, they don't make you an ugly person who lies and takes advantage, they don't change your personality. You giving up your animals has NOTHING in common with him giving up drinking. He is pissed that he has to give up his bff (alcohol) and he wants you to be miserable and hurt too and lose something you love. But pets are normal and healthy and alcoholism is not.
I need to make a decision if I'm going to do what he asks in a bid to save our marriage. Thing is, two of my animals are not re-homeable for various reasons, so I'd have to put them down. This just kills me, because I love my animals like they were my children. Is bargaining or giving ultimatums typical behavior of an alcoholic? Am I wrong to think he's being unfair, or am I being just as selfish by refusing to let my pets go?
PLEASE go to al anon or get the book 'Getting Them Sober'. Getting rid of your animals and putting them down in hopes that it will save your marriage get your H sober is going to result in nothing but misery for you. Your H needs to decide if he wants to get sober. It has nothing to do with you. He wants you to think it does and he has you as convinced as my H had me for years. Please keep coming back or pm me and we can chat...

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS!!!

Nothing you do can make him stop drinking or make him drink. NOTHING.

They are very sick, A's manipulate to get what they want, they will lie to you!

They are brain damaged, they cannot think in a healthy way.

I had an animal sanctuary, believe me you need those animals to keep you sane and loved.

No one that loves another would ask them to get rid of something important to them.It is totally a control issue.

It's just a sick mind trying to control you.

Believe me he won't quit. If he wants to quit, he will do it on his own. Nothing else works.cold turkey does not work either. They need to go to detox, rehab, then 90 meetings in 90 days and continue as many meetings as they can.

What will help you is Al anon. at the end of my post is a site and number to call to find a meeting place in your area., They would love to see ya!

We also have meetings here, chat room and this board. You can pm people and many will share their home emails.

We all need to learn our part in this. We learn to look at our own lives, choises, and what we can do for ourselves. We learn to stop looking at their inventory, their disease is their own business, we are no part of it.

In time as you learn tools and used them, you will feel sooooo much better.

Hon my parents split up after us kids were gone.Daddy had mother find homes for her dogs, her antiques and more. then he moved with out her!

rrrrr

Anyway we have a right to make our own lives happy ones.

HOpe you come back! love,debilyn

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

And maybe, just maybe, if you give up your pets, he'll find a different excuse to drink.

Wifey wrote:

Hi, I'm a middle aged wife of an alcoholic and am in need of advice, guidance, or maybe just a good swift kick. My husband has been drinking for over 30 years, heavily on and off for the past 7 or so years. I had started therapy, so I've been able to begin addressing some of my issues, fears and concerns regarding living with an alcoholic, but there's still a lot to learn.
My current situation is this: AH says he will stop drinking cold turkey if I get rid of my pets, whom he hates. On the one hand, I feel like this is an ultimatum coming from a drunk who has never gone more than a dozen days without caving in and drinking, but on the other hand I have to wonder if he's in the right. Maybe that's the fair thing for me to do, since his biggest problem with me seems to be my animals...maybe with them gone, he won't be so angry and won't drink as much. Maybe he's right that they're unnecessary expenses. Then again, maybe he's just trying to enforce a childish game of tit for tat. I have to give up something I'm fond of, so you should have to, as well. I need to make a decision if I'm going to do what he asks in a bid to save our marriage. Thing is, two of my animals are not re-homeable for various reasons, so I'd have to put them down. This just kills me, because I love my animals like they were my children. Is bargaining or giving ultimatums typical behavior of an alcoholic? Am I wrong to think he's being unfair, or am I being just as selfish by refusing to let my pets go?

drummerchick423 · Senior Member

We have all felt alone at one time or another. That's the great thing about al-anon. You can find people who can relate to the unique challenges and problems loving an alcoholic.

Wifey wrote:

Thank you all...I think I knew in my heart it was booze talking and irrational thinking, but so many times I begin to doubt myself. I wish I could attend an Al-anon meeting in the flesh, but certain circumstances make that fairly impossible. I'm looking into the online meetings, though. Perhaps I can pull those off...
Thank you again for your kind words everyone. It does help knowing there are people out there who completely understand where I am emotionally and will offer support. Sometimes I feel so alone in this.

ythannah · Senior Member

I'll admit upfront that my bias is being a huge animal lover, and I currently own two dogs. I've owned dogs for the last 27 years of my life, and I've "retained custody" of my dogs through the breakups of five relationships. They're my sole source of unconditional love, they comfort me when I'm sad and they never fail to put a smile on my face with their silly antics.

I wouldn't give them up for anything, and I'd seriously question the motives of anyone who asked me to give them up, whatever the reason.

My ABF has told me that he has relapsed because it rained for three days in a row; any handy excuse will do for an alcoholic. He doesn't drink because he's "fond of" drinking, he drinks because he has an addiction. There is nothing I do that causes, controls or can cure his drinking.

purpleraven · Veteran Member

welcome, Wifey :) first i'd like to say, i don't think there is truly any way to understand the alcoholic's thinking process. the only thinking process you have any control over is your own, i've learned that here and in face-to-face Al-Anon meetings.

giving up a pet compared to him stopping drinking? doesn't sound like a fair exchange. you say he's proven himself unreliable, in which case you'd be with no pets and he'd be drinking. also, pets are a valuable addition to a person's life (of course you have an addiction problem like on "Animal Hoarders"!), they can be like children ... could you give up a child to stop an alcoholic from drinking?

even with a clean-n-sober alcoholic, even after 26 years of sobriety, there were ultimatums and lots of bargaining, over "dry drunk" behaviors. i honestly don't think anything works except the alcoholic working the program for themselves, and you working your program for YOU.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.