The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
My husband has been very active in recovery and had been doing very well. He is in two groups with a great bunch of Christian men. Last night, I suspected he had some alcohol. Not drunk, however, being around him for so many years that he got drunk, I know the signs. Speech not quite the same, some crazy body movements, not hungry and then falling asleep at 6:30 PM. OK so I asked him, did you drink alcohol today? The quick answer was, "no." I told him, "you are speaking as though you did and then you fell asleep." He answered, "I'm tired."
I know that alcoholics, recovering or not, lie. He apparently hasn't recovered from that coping mechanism. However, in therapy, I was told that if, as his wife, something is bothering me, I should communicate that with him. So I did.
Lying between anybody is horrible. Husbands and wives need to be truthful. I need that. I didn't feel well last night. Couldn't sleep. Yes, it would have made me feel better if we could have had an intimate conversation about what he did and where he went. Why couldn't I have been made a part of the weak moment when he decided to drink.
Share with me what the healthy response is to this. By the way, I had worked all day and was very tired. Sometimes, I think that leaving and going somewhere would have been a better response , but all I wanted to do was eat dinner and relax. I didn't want to run from my own home.
I certainly wish I had advice for you-- I know the "correct" answer is to focus on our recovery, remember this is part of the disease etc... But marriage vows and basic human expectations of honesty are hard to just accept as part of the "disease" (I am not convinced that ALL bad behavior on the part of an alcoholic- particularly one who is sober, is attributable to the disease alone-- some people as the big book even says, are just bad at heart and no amt of recovery will fix that. My "R"AH is one of those.
I am really sympathetic to what you're going through. Trust your gut. You know he drank and he surely did and he knows he's lying to you and no amt of you talking to him is going to get him to be honest. He's sick and thinks lying is fine bc protection his addiction matters more than his wife, his marriage, his health etc... My heart goes out to you.
I wish I had something useful to say here. I had a situation of deceit today that drove me bonkas. It wasn't related to drinking. But to finances. A long story. But basically my Ah went and used a very small amount of money ($50) of our ours on a bill that is just his. What mattered to me is that he didn't talk to me about this first and the fact he paid it was a lie by omission. Sounds so petty I know. But honestly I just wanted him to be able to come to me and discuss what his need was up front. He said he didn't because it would result in a conflict - so he avoided it and got the bill paid. Then told me what he did. (Not sure I am explaining myself well here). I just go so angry. Now I am upset this evening and he is away drinking. And what was all this for. The principle of it? Has it only confirmed that yes if he is upfront we do fight? I am so mixed up. The only thing that seems to be sticking in my head and making any sort of sense is this quote:
"My serenity is under my control, and I will not relinquish it for trivial occurences." - One Day At a Time page 259
I am not saying lying and drinking are trivial - I guess what came to my mind is noen of me carrying on about it has been worth it or resulted in a good outcome. It feels like defeat to own that. But I don't know what else to do.
"My serenity is under my control, and I will not relinquish it for trivial occurences." - One Day At a Time page 259
I am not saying lying and drinking are trivial - I guess what came to my mind is noen of me carrying on about it has been worth it or resulted in a good outcome. It feels like defeat to own that. But I don't know what else to do.
I hope you are okay. x
Hi Wife
I did relate to your posting and to the many responses. I must say that the above really touched my soul.
Alanon has given me new tools. It has opened my mind and heart to new ways to look at situations and I have been asked to keep an open mind. While I am focusing on myself , I am asked to stop judging can criticizing others. When I did that I found many of my ideas about "principles" and how someone should behave were applicable to my partner but somehow I excused myself from the same scrutiny. When I focused on my behavior I des covered I too withheld information, told tiny lies because __fill in the blanks .
Not being able to be up front and honest about my needs and wants are also a symptom of this disease. With holding information because it may cause a fight or because you may not get to do the thing is very dysfunctional but very familiar where alcoholism lives.
Trust your gut. Do not ask questions you know the answer to and know that is disease is cunning and powerful Both people suffer from the effects
I do understand your feelings. I was once there for many, many years. There is hope.
My experiences have taught me what Hot Rod has posted. I do not take my ex-AH's lying personally. He has difficulty being honest with himself, let alone anyone else.
These days, I don't focus on what he does or says. If I give any thought at all, it is to the man that I know exists deep inside. I know he is hurting; I know he feels shameful every time he says or does something that is not aligned with his true nature. I realize I no longer have to point that out to him. One of the best things I can give him is to walk away from the insanity - to disengage.
Again, I no longer personalize what my ex-AH does or says. I, for most of our married years, felt he chose alcohol over me. And then at the end of the marriage, I felt he chose it again. However, I now know that the disease has such a hold on him that he can't make good choices, at least for now.
It takes practice - tons of it. And every now and then I slip up.
Al-Anon meetings remind me what I learned through reading books and individual counseling sessions (countless sessions). (My learning, most likely, could have been expedited if I had gone straight to Al-Anon first. However, I'm thankful I eventually found meetings. They help me stay on track and grow.
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Saturday 16th of April 2011 10:16:10 AM
__________________
You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
Alcoholics lie. Even when they don't have to. Mine (who has been in AA for 11 years) loves to tell me 1/2 the truth. He will tell me just as much as he thinks I need to know, but not the whole story. I can tell because he has a nervous yawn that he does when I'm not supposed to pursue the story. If I pursue it anyway he gets flustered and "forgets" and I know to give it up and let him have his dignity of keeping his secret. I don't even question him anymore about anything. I never know what I am getting, so I would rather just live my own life and let him live his. I guess you could say that I totally don't trust him...and you would be right. I verify with someone else if I really, really need to know. Very few things in life do I really, really need to know... so my life is just a lot simpler.
Trust yourself. Trust your HP that where you are right now is the place you are supposed to be and tomorrow will take care of itself with the HP in control. It is not defeat to use detachment. It is self-preservation. And in the long run I know I am better for it because it got me back to trusting my HP.
My A never acknowledged when he was drinking, not one single time in his entire life, as far as I know. If the alcoholism has him enough to make him drink, it has him enough to make him lie. We just drive ourselves crazy expecting them to tell the truth about it.
I got to where I'd just say to him, "I don't want you to tell me whether you've been drinking or not, because it will get us nowhere. All I know is that you're behaving exactly as you do when you've been drinking. Therefore I ... [am not giving you the car keys/am not going out to dinner with you after all/am going out to meet a friend, or whatever]." He would just shrug. But I felt as if at least I wasn't playing along with his "It's not happening" masquerade; I was telling my truth and moving on. It's when I'd let myself get in an argument with him ("You've been drinking," "I have not," "Just admit it," "You're crazy," etc. etc.) that things went downhill.
Just last night I thought to myself, "the lying is worse than the drinking". I really think I could handle the drinking if it weren't for the lying, if she were honest about it.
I read what Hot Rod wrote and I know the answer is there; I also know I am not there yet and I need to continue to work harder. It is hard because it is counter to everything I have done in my life for the first 40+ years. There is a lot of history to try and change.
I asked my wife last night "did you drink tonight"? Meanwhile, she could barely stand up. I felt like such an idiot afterwards. The hard part for me is I just feel "wronged" when I'm lied to. As Hayes said: I am not saying lying and drinking are trivial - I guess what came to my mind is noen of me carrying on about it has been worth it or resulted in a good outcome. It feels like defeat to own that. But I don't know what else to do.
It just feels so uncomfortable and wrong to be lied to, by my spouse. But have I been perfect? No, not close. Have I been "better" than my wife? Sure, I guess. But I am not sick as she is. I need to stop pitying myself and realize this situation is what it is and me feeling sorry for myself won't change anything.
I feel bad, really bad, when my wife lies to me. But I know for certain, I know that she feels way worse than I do.
-- Edited by usedtobeanyer on Saturday 16th of April 2011 08:36:33 PM
I think lying comes front and center, it's part of the disease. It's part of their DNA. With that in mind, to maintain serenity and peace of mind I have found acceptance to be the key. Why do I want to ask a question I already know the answer to? In the yellow pages you let your fingers do the walking. Living with an active alcoholic you let your eyes do the listening. My alcoholic doesn't have to lie about her drinking beacuse I never ask. Call it not reacting or not asking, in either case it's taking care of myself first. At the end of the day what did it matter anyway, they are either drinking or they are not drinking, they are either lying or they are not lying. When I put my detective badge and lie detector equipment into retirement it was like moving out from under a tree filled with pigeons.
Why do we ask those stupid questions ? like Gail said we already know the answer , expecting honesty is just setting us up for another resentment . If he had said yes do you really think that would have been the end of the conversation , it probably would have led to one really good argument and who needs it ?
RLC's reply reminded me of the Alanon reading about pigeons (can't remember if it's in Courage to Change or One Day at a Time). In a nutshell, just says that when you go to the park and sit under a tree with pigeons in it, and pigeons do what pigeons DO, you get pooped on. The pigeons aren't purposely trying to poop ON you - they just poop but since you're sitting there you end up with it on you. Point is to not take it personally, but realize that you can sit somewhere else. For me, this is a great analogy.
I don't believe that, by not asking questions like "are you drinking" we allow the alcoholic to have a free pass for his or her drinking. However, we allow ourselves to not assume responsibility for it - we don't need to pull out the magnifying glass and put all the pieces of the puzzle together. That's time consuming, mentally exhausting, neverending work. Instead, we can put down the magnifying glass and pick up a mirror instead...we just focus on ourselves instead. It's not giving a free pass to someone else, it's just acceptance that we simply cannot change it. Even if someone admits that yes, they were drinking, THEN what? Either way, having an answer to this question does not change the reality of the situation. FOr me, this was the hardest thing in the world to grasp...the acceptance didn't come easy. When I started to realize that acceptance did not mean that I LIKED something, it just meant that I could objectively accept that somehting was what it was, life got a lot easier.
Hang in and keep coming back - the miracles will keep coming if you work it. "Miracle" is the only way I can describe my progress in here. I felt very hopeless at particular points when my AH's drinking consumed my life.
Just wanted to point out what is typical alcoholic thinking. "I lied to avoid a conflict." And then you have an even BIGGER conflict because not only did he do the thing that bugged you, but he LIED about it. Mm hmm, real effective. Sorry, but I heard the same thing quite often from my exabf.
Hayes wrote:
I wish I had something useful to say here. I had a situation of deceit today that drove me bonkas. It wasn't related to drinking. But to finances. A long story. But basically my Ah went and used a very small amount of money ($50) of our ours on a bill that is just his. What mattered to me is that he didn't talk to me about this first and the fact he paid it was a lie by omission. Sounds so petty I know. But honestly I just wanted him to be able to come to me and discuss what his need was up front. He said he didn't because it would result in a conflict - so he avoided it and got the bill paid. Then told me what he did. (Not sure I am explaining myself well here). I just go so angry. Now I am upset this evening and he is away drinking. And what was all this for. The principle of it? Has it only confirmed that yes if he is upfront we do fight? I am so mixed up. The only thing that seems to be sticking in my head and making any sort of sense is this quote:
"My serenity is under my control, and I will not relinquish it for trivial occurences." - One Day At a Time page 259
I am not saying lying and drinking are trivial - I guess what came to my mind is noen of me carrying on about it has been worth it or resulted in a good outcome. It feels like defeat to own that. But I don't know what else to do.
