Are fights/arguments ever productive? - Al-Anon Family Group

usedtobeanyer · Senior Member

Are fights/arguments ever productive?

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

I am sorry you have this and iIt's definitely not easy.

There are components to your post; the children, you, and your wife. Children may normally fight over shared or even their own gifts. Parents in any household may agree on handling their childrens' fighting differently. I just want to qualify that these things are not easy even under more 'normal' circumstances.

In my house, ideally, I would have wanted congruity on handling our daughter. I wanted both parents to agree to support each other in front of our daughter, and, to settle disagreements in private. I dreamed of a house with a unified parental support system and a functioning family unit.

This was not the case.

My ex could not bear the thought of having boundaries or consequences for himself or our child. (but, of course it was ok if I took on the consequences lol) I was entirely overwhelmed raising our daughter, as could happen with many parents.

Using alanon tools, you are right to know to mean things you say, say things you mean and not say them meanly. So, you'll remember to pull the last part of not saying it meanly next time... there will be a next time to practice that. I find that there are some communication breakthroughs with my exha when I am able to state things without being mean.

Alanon would also address managing boundaries, consequences, and expectations. You are able to set your own boundaries for yourself and determine what consequences will be helpful. The boundaries would be for when the children fight and for when you would like spousal support.

It has helped me to step 4 the resentments caused from lack of spousal support in raising my daughter. I know my focusing on resentment hurts what I want to accomplish. It also helps for me to think of the addiction as a disease and detach.

I came to a place where I do not expect my exha to behave how I want him to as a parent. I cannot make him act how I think he should act. I could not make him co=parent with me. He has his opportunities to interact and develop a relationship with our daughter how he sees fit. It is not what I would want for them, but it is not my place to interfere. This is not my ideal and this has not been easy, but it has released me from feeling responsible for how my exha behaves and focus on how I am going to parent. I feel more effective the more consistent I can be.

You aren't alone. I hope this helps.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm so sorry this happened.

My experience is that, as you've seen, fights only very, very, very rarely (read: only once in a million years, when both partners are healthy and coming at it from a place of good will) are fights ever productive. No matter how right and justified I've been, fighting with someone and telling them what they're doing wrong has never worked for me. It's very frustrating, isn't it?

Unfortunately, it also models losing your temper as a response to frustration -- just what you were trying not to teach your four-year-old, I bet.

I remember those days with small children. It's so hard to keep on an even keel. I'm not trying to justify your wife's behavior. I do remember that when our son was young, sometimes I was so overwhelmed I'd just check out. Especially when my H was around to pick up the pieces. He was an A and mostly oblivious to how much work a small child was. I'd be taking care of our son all day (and I also was the one working), and he'd come home and I'd think, "Right, you can take over now, and see how 'easy' it is." It was a position born of burn-out, resentment, and bad communication.

I guess I'm telling the way it was for me because I suspect that the only way for things to really change is from your end, and I'd guess that understanding what's going on on a deeper level is helpful. It sounds as if you're already coming at it from a place of understanding, seeing that fighting doesn't help things. It does show that things are becoming overwhelming for you too, though. I have no idea what the right solution looks like for you. In my situation, some daycare every week (I think we started with a few hours a day, three times a week) let us regain some energy so we could be more civil to each other. I think people tend to underestimate how demanding it is to take care of little kids -- that goes for you as well as for your wife. Hugs to you.

Debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

This is such an instrumental time in your babies development. It's so important to help them grow into comfortable people.

At four they are seeing how to relate to others. Many are almost mean at this age. Once they are taught, by seeing mostly how to deal with frustration, they get so much better.

If they see you fighting, they will learn that is how you deal.

If your wife said to you, "I can see how frustrated you are with me. I never feel anything I do is right anymore. How can I get help?" or "What can I do to help?"

I am sure things would be different.

I know it is a hard concept. Drinking, using drugs is just one tiny part of being an addict! She is still very sick, immature from using and not learning skills to deal with life struggles. An addict has so many more obstacles than drinking/drugging.

I have seen many A's don't engage. They just don't. They honestly seem to not know how. Unless they are drunk or whatever, then it is phoney and worthless.

They are so uncomfortable in their own skin. One being on the computer, constantly glued to the tv as things go on around them, is their bubble/;protection. They crave a rest to not have to deal.

They do not feel balanced. Remember too they are the maturity age they were when they began using.

Maybe it is a good thing you see how she probably is when you are at work. She zones out while the kids do whatever they do. It does show they would get more in a childcare situation.

For her saying she can leave at anytime tells you Sooooooo much. It is on her mind. So instead she leaves in a way that her body is there but her mind is not.

It's hard enough to have a seriously sick spouse when you are childless. But to have children is ever so so much harder.

I can still feel the anguish inside me when I loved my first husband so much, but he drove drunk with our babies. I knew I had to separate. It was horrible, as I did love him. I feel very strongly we must protect our kids at all costs.

Its so majorly horrible when it is our spouses illness we must protect them from. My husband was so there with the kids, he was a GREAT dad. the stupid disease took him away.

ugh.
Its so hard I know. I am here for you. love,debilyn

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

We've all been there, aren't you glad you're not alone?!

I do know this... when I'm mad, I'm had. It doesn't matter what scenario is being played. When my serenity is lost, there is nothing "productive" about that. I can only try to protect my serenity with lots of meetings, lots of reading and meditation time to keep spiritually fit. When I slack off, I feel it. I start getting emotional again. And to me, my emotions are a great indicator of how well I'm working my program... or not.

Life is going to happen. I can't have an expectation that some time in the future, things are ever going to play out the way I want it... I have to change. Sometimes, I even phone my sponsor when I feel anger bubbling up, especially when I'm with my family of origin, they seem to trigger me the most. I can't have an expectation they're ever going to change! My recovery is all about guarding my serenity, and growing spiritually. It sounds selfish, but it really is the exact opposite, it's about turning my Self over. My anger is from my Ego.

I love bud's warning, "there will be a next time to practice that." hehehe It's so true. ((big hugs))

Angeliki · Member

I have a lot of these same problems... I never really thought about them being related to my husband's drinking but slowly I am starting to realize that his "emotional" issues are a byproduct of his drinking, even when he is sober. I too got into an argument with my husband yesterday about taking care of our son. He is a great father when he tries but its like he emotionally cannot commit to it 100% of the time. He loves to take his son and play with him for a little bit here and a little bit there, but he can't handle too much of it. It makes me so frustrated because I do everything, plus work a full-time job myself, and he still throws a fit if I ask for any help.

I guess i have a lot to learn. I am sorry for your troubles... I think any "normal" couple goes through a lot of arguments about raising kids and it just seems to be worse in this situation. Can't offer any advice since I am new but good luck to you!

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Use to be...for a moment there I was looking at my watch to see when "Family
and Couples' Group" was going to start. I use to work as a therapist you see mmmm.

Question? Are you attending Al-Anon meetings? if you are are you working the steps
and the slogans? are you doing that with a sponsor and a home group? are you
willing to do whatever is necessary to gain and maintain your peace of mind and
serenity? Sounds to me like you initiated a war without protection or arms and every
time I did this I came away blown up and asking the question "what the hell did I just
do?" because it is of absolutely no use at all to point that Al-Anon index finger out
ward to accuse and blame the alcoholic, addict or anyone else.

I am responsible for my peace of mind and serenity. I cause it, I control it, I continue
it...(3cs') my peace of mind and serenity. I cannot do it alone. I have learned that
those three 3cs' work best with the use of the program as suggested and a full tool
box.

Reading your post reminded me of when the peace and quiet of recovery use to bore
me and I just needed to hear explosions and get back into mouth to mouth if not
also hand to hand combat. What was wrong with me that I needed that kind of
drama, crises and chaos? Why did I need that to affirm that I was alive and needed?
I get the answers to those and other questions from inside the program of the Al-Anon Family Groups.

Last night I said to my spouse who is having trouble with our not yet solved economic
condition and which always drives her to her fear base. "You and I are different in this.
It doesn't drive me to fear so bringing your fear at me doesn't work. I'm in a trust
and patience space and you are not so I cannot help you in fear." She went and took
a warm bath and I turned it over and let it go and when I did I got a phone call from
a member I haven't heard from for along time who wanted to tell me that she finally
found the way to handle the roller coaster of emotions which use to capture her, tie
her to the roller coaster and force her to ride into nausea. She told me that she can
choose to either ride or get off and to be happy, joyous and free regardless. What do
you think it would have been like for you to have a phone call show up like that just
when you needed it.

Want to hold your desire for recovery feet to the fire. If you have step literature
read step 10...s l o w l y...and then do the "promptly" thingy. I agree with you that
you started it...you set her up and shot yourself in the foot with it. "I'll show me"
you said and then got what we all get when we poke dog poop with a stick...stink.

What do you want to happen now? (best done with a sponsor). Keep coming back
and I hope the guys jump up to this with support. ((((hugs)))) smile

-- Edited by Jerry F on Monday 3rd of January 2011 01:54:47 PM

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

Was it productive? Maybe for you... sounds like it got you thinking about things.

I know when I'd come out of the aftermath of an argument with my exAH, I'd certainly get some time to reflect on things... if I were really feeling clear, I'd take that argument through the first three steps. Did I operate in the argument remembering I'm powerless over other people, places and things? Did I remember my HP and try to bring my HP into it?

Usually when I'd leave an argument feeling pretty damn miserable, I'd know I'd been operating on my will alone and didn't even try to bring God into it.

Have you attended any open AA meetings? Or, notably, ones without your wife? Open AA meetings and reading the first 164 pages of AA's Big Book really helped me to get some clarity on what the alcoholic is going through. It helped me to learn that they're 100% aware of how chaotic things are around them yet their disease has them seized up. Alcohol may not have been involved in the argument, but the disease of alcoholism was certainly present.

ythannah · Senior Member

I can't say if fights are ever productive; I do know that the emotional residue can be long-lasting and pretty toxic.

Don't know if this even applies in your situation, but I've found that I sometimes create my own resentment with the expectation that someone else will notice that I need help with something and come to my rescue. I am (slowly!) learning to ask for help before I get to the stage of frustration. Of course, you do run the risk of hearing that the other person is "busy" with something else like a computer game and doesn't want to participate.

It also helps if expectations regarding workload sharing are openly discussed and negotiated at less heated times.

usedtobeanyer · Senior Member

Thanks all, I know that in so many ways the way I handled it was the wrong way. But I just felt nearly 2 weeks of frustration building up and it exploded.

I haven't been to a meeting in a few weeks. Tomorrow I go! And no, I don't have a sponsor. I don't feel even close to comfortable asking anyone at the meeting I go to to be a sponsor. I don't have a relationship with anyone there.

I think it's probably clear from my posts here that I'm struggling with many of the Al Anon concepts. To me the idea that I am struggling the most with is that in order to be succesful in this program, it feels like we have to do so much--don't have expectations for our partner, don't be critical, don't worry, don't project--yet what about them? My wife can sit at the computer and play computer games while I am trying to stop World War III between my 2 little ones, and then be critical of how I am handling the situation, and I'm the one who handled this wrong! Please understand that I know what I'm saying is wrong, I really really do. I suppose I'm just venting.

I know the right way to do this, I just don't want to do it. Or I don't want to do it without complaining about it. But at least I know the right way to do this!

Thanks everyone.

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Al-Anon principles apply in all relationships , you said it yourself say what u mean , mean what you say ,but were mean when you said it . I have often apologized for the way I said things not what I said .

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

Usedtobe-

Please do come here and vent. Come and vent often. Come and vent here and leave with a solution.

I think it is safe to say that everyone here has, at one time, experienced rage and acted on it.

Alanon concepts take time to understand and practice, so don't leave before you start finding the miracles and how they work.

I went to Alanon years ago, and didn't get it, thought things didn't apply to me, thought I didn't belong here, etc....I was too enraged to understand or to remain open. Years later I'm back. Thank God, I'm starting to get it! It isn't easy, but working the steps are improving my situation. I still have a very long way to go.

At least when I get angry, I now know that if I am dealing with someone who has a disease and is very sick.

I lean on others for the support I cannot give myself and in the sharing, I find myself slowly getting stronger. This is how I am healing. I believe we can't do it by ourselves. Ultimately, I hope to be able to rely on God more, but will still want the caring of others who understand what we're going through.

Alanoners have given suggestions of handling situations that make for better outcomes.

I'm willing to say that next time you are in a heated argument, you will think of not saying it meanly, even if you decide to say it meanly. Eventually, you will realize that not saying it meanly will become more important than venting rage that way. Also, when you do find yourself expressing yourself in a non-mean way, chances are good that you may experience a small miracle- it could be an unexpected positive response from your wife or it could be proud that you did not let rage get the best of you.

Attend meetings, come here, read as much as you can about the disease. I found attending a few open AA meeting valuable in understanding how the disease works and also how the twelve steps work. It has strengthened my desire to work my Alanon program even harder.

Glad you are here.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

It takes time to change, usedtobe... give yourself some credit and some breathing room. :) We don't all change many, many years of thinking one way to thinking "the Al-Anon way" overnight. It takes time, and a LOT of trial and error.

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

As a fairly newcommer to this program I am going to assume that like myself when i changed my behavior I expected changes in the alcoholic too , well as your finding out that doesnt happen .. I now know that anything I learn here is for me- not to change the alcoholic,when I treat someone with respect I feel better about myself , I dont have to walk around beating myself up for loosing it. when I walk away from a argument that gets me no where I feel better about me and the day isnt ruined because I fogot How Important is this ??
Al-Anon is for me has nothing to do with the alcoholic , practing these principles just makes me feel better , period ...
PS- can you explain to me what Usedtobeanyer means ? curiosity finaly got me .

-- Edited by abbyal on Monday 3rd of January 2011 09:08:26 PM

usedtobeanyer · Senior Member

Thanks again everyone! So many of you are so, so wise! I get something out of every single post here...

Abbyal, usedtobeanyer is Used To Be A New Yorker...I lived in the Big City from 1991 until 2005...and met my now wife there...in a bar, no less!

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

Change in us can mean change in the way we react or don't react to different situations with our alcoholic. I finally figured it out, when I changed and didn't react to a situation, bottom line, I protected myself from the disease and myself at the same time.

An example, if you had not let your situation fester to the boiling point, and then felt justified in your "reaction", let it go, and asked yourself how important is it, your serenity would be intact. I use to feel as if I took and took and then to heck with it, I would speak my mind, she deserved it. It would make me feel better at the time. But the short term reward played out in a short time and always left me second guessing myself as you did this morning.

We are all dealing with an alcoholic, they are not going to change. We have what we have and from past experience we should know what to expect. We are only human and occasionally the disease gets the best of us. It's been over a year since I decided it was in my best interest to react (explode is a better word), and I remember I wasn't proud of myself at all. The next day I backed up 15 yards and punted and started over again. I am happier and feel better about myself when I wear my Al-Anon shoes and never take them off.

Usetobe, it's the opposite of what you are thinking. The changes you will make will protect you and control you, in the long and short run will make your life better.

Try this, the next time a similar situation comes up, count to 10 before you react or don't react. Better yet........count to 100.

I had a golden opportunity to react tonight. I only counted to 3 before the program kicked in. I came with lots of practice. My day tomorrow will be much different than yours was today because of the choice I made.

I do want you to know that I could feel the feeling you were having as your insides were burning and your teeth were gritting, and finally the feeling of I don't deserve this and I'm not going to take it anymore came over you. Like me you will get another opportunity sooner than later.

Also worth noting, it's the disease we are mad at and we let control us in those situations, while we have our head tucked between our legs, the disease is laughing claiming another victory, saying Ha Ha I kicked his butt again. More reason to count to 100 !!!

HUGS,
RLC

-- Edited by RLC on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 12:30:54 AM

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for the explanation , and I met my husb in a bar too .

stephaniej · Senior Member

This is such a tough topic. My own opinion is that fights/arguments by their very nature (combative, angry, hurtful) are not productive. I think that the issues that come up in fights/arguments can be issues that are important, and that discussion of those issues can be productive. But fighting/arguing about the issues rarely, if ever, is the way to have such a discussion.

That said, the world is not a perfect place, and we are not perfect people. Things weigh on us, we bottle up our feelings, and things come busting out, all angry and ugly and confrontational. Even as our serenity increases, and we work our program, we are not flawless and we will regress. When I have those moments, I try to get through them, then step back and identify the real, meaningful issues underlying the blow up (if there are any...sometimes it's just my need to control, plain and simple). Then I file those issues away for a later calm, rational discussion.

Be gentle on yourself. You are doing wonderful work.

Shelly · Member

"If you can keep your head while all around are loosing theirs, you'll be a better man/woman..."

I try to remember this little saying which helps me when I begin to feel myself being drawn into the others argument.

Although I want to ask, does it help to ask the other the next day if they meant what they said in the heat of the moment?

I also have some little ones, a 2mth old and a 4yr old and worry when my A has been drinking and starts swearing or stumbling around us. Still learning to enforce my boundary of not letting my A drink around us.

Am learning alot by reading from others.

Hugs to you also.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.