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Hi- I am posting another question.. I guess this should have been first.
My therapist told me that Alanon is for anyone who is bothered by someone else's drinking and doesn't focus on labels. I do understand that. But I guess a big part of my anxiety is whether or not I am right to be worried. My husband says I feel the need to control everyone around me (which is true when it comes to his drinking but not true for anybody else in my life) and that he is totally fine. Here is what I see:
1) He does not drink at work (that I know of.) 2) He does walk in the door with a beer in his hand (from our outside fridge.) He literally grabs himself a beer before taking of his coat, saying hello, anything. 3) He drinks until he goes to sleep, a total usually of about 10 beers, more or less. 4) The volume of beer he drinks has increased slowly over the years, as has the frequency. 5) He does take a "day off" about once every 10 days where he doesn't drink. When we first met he would drink only 4 days a week, then it was 5, and now this. 6) On his "days off", he always takes Nyquil or sometimes Valium to fall asleep. 7) He also smokes pot on a daily basis, but not a lot. Just one or two hits a day to help him relax. 8) When I first met him, he would not drink and drive at all due to 2 DUI's he had gotten when he was in his early 20's. Over the past few years, he has become a little bolder (I would say he will drink up to 3 cocktails or 5 beers and drive.) 9) He does 99% of his drinking at home. He doesn't like to go out to bars that often. 10) He throws up often. Usually he will throw up immediately after taking his first sip of a drink and then many times in the morning he will throw up. 11) He doesn't eat very much because he says it ruins his buzz. 12) He "holds" his alcohol very well... even after drinking 10 beers nobody except me would probably know he has been drinking. He hardly ever stumbles around or slurs his speech noticeably. 13) He does get into fits of rage quite often if we get into an argument, whether or not he has been drinking. 14) Alcoholism runs in his family. Two of his uncles, two of his brothers, one cousin, and his father all struggle with addiction problems- some of them are in recovery, some are just in denial.
Those are just all the reasons I worry about his drinking. They aren't all the reasons our life is affected by his drinking.
I know that nobody can tell me for sure, but does anyone have experience with a person like this? Can anyone tell me if they think I am right to be concerned or if I am really just being controlling?
His drinking affects YOU negatively; that's enough.
Having said that, your husband's drinking pattern is very similar to that of my parents, who both had such a tight rein on their drinking that they never suffered any economic, legal or employment consequences. I can remember many times as a child watching them come in the door after work and grab that first drink before taking off their coats.
The word "alcoholic" had never been spoken by either of them, even when my mother was in ICU dying of cirrhosis.
It's just a label. Whether or not it gets used, or whether or not the drinker admits it, the results are the same.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
So glad you are here. I am not sure if you have the book called "Getting Them Sober". I got my copy from the top of this message board, and if you don't have one you can get one sent to you.
What you are asking is specifically addressed on page 12, Ch 3 of the book. The title of the Chapter is "Don't Worry About Whether He's Really An Alcoholic."
The last paragraph states:
"And most important, Is his drinking upsetting YOU?"
You can go online and look up excerpts from the book, too. It's Getting Them Sober, by Toby Rice Drews.
Yes I do have experience with a person like this. That is why it has been so important for me to join this board, go to meetings, read literature, get a sponsor, and work the steps. There has been much relief for me as far as my feelings of guilt and anger. I have been able to recognize controlling not just on the A's part but on my part as well. Believe me, you are not the only one in this relationship who is doing some controlling. For me, I believed everything my husband would say about me just because he said it and even if I knew deep down in my heart that what he was saying was not the truth.
Keep coming back. And please remember the three c's of the program:
YOU DID NOT CAUSE IT YOU CANNOT CONTROL IT AND YOU CANNOT CURE IT
YTHANNAH- I am so sorry to hear about your mother... that must have been so difficult. Its my worst fear for my son.. to have to watch something like that happen to his father. Can I ask you another question since I haven't met anyone yet who seems to know people like this (with a tight "rein" like you said)? Were you still bothered by their drinking as a child? I am very worried about my son. Its hard because things aren't to a point where I would know FOR SURE that I should leave.. and I don't think my husband is very going to hit rock-bottom and realize he needs help. His father is the same way... he has lived his whole life like this and I think therefore my husband thinks its normal. I do not want my son to grow up the same way.
KATH- Thank you for your suggestion. I haven't got the book... I guess I am so hesitant because of the title... I feel like I dont' want to give any more of myself or make any more effort to help because I feel like it is useless. Is the book still helpful even if you don't think you can "get them sober"? I am just so confused.. it seems like one thing is telling me its not my responsibility and thats why I was put off by the title.
Were you still bothered by their drinking as a child?
Very much so. But -- your child has one sober parent. I had none. I was also isolated from extended family because my father had moved here for work (we immigrated to a new country) and I was an only child. I was alone in dealing with the alcoholism.
What bothered me was the lying and the pretence -- presenting a different image publicly from what went on behind closed doors -- the promises made when drunk that were forgotten the next day, the constant screaming rages between my parents (sometimes about something one had forgotten while the other remembered), the fact that they weren't present for me in any meaningful way, the constant fear that they would burn the house down as both were smokers then, not being able to bring friends home because I had to protect the secret. I could go on forever with that list.
I've read Getting Them Sober; the title is a bit of a misnomer. It's not about what to do TO the drunk to effect change, it's about what we can do for ourselves. It's a great book -- it helped me change the way I interact with my ABF, and reduced my feeling of helplessness in dealing with yet another alcoholic.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
The fact that you are asking whether this might be normal shows how the insanity of alcoholics gets passed on to us. My straight answer is yes, this makes him very much an alcoholic. None of this is normal at all. It is very abnormal. But when they have everything invested in denial, we lose our own perspective on what's normal. It's typical of alcoholics, whether they're falling-down-drunk or merely drinking on the sly and thinking they're hiding it, to deny and to imply that our perceptions are incredibly skewed.
My AH also had all kinds of "rules" that meant he wasn't an alcoholic. Alcoholics don't keep their jobs, he maintained. So as long as he kept his, he wasn't one. Alcoholics are the guys living under bridges, he maintained. So as long as he had a house, he wasn't one. Etc. etc. etc. He always defined alcoholics as something other than what he was, so he never had to face what he had become.
My experience is also that once I caught on to it all, I found he had been drinking far more than I thought. He usually did it so cagily that he could have passed for sober to most people. I thought he never drank in the day; I thought he never drank and drove. In Al-Anon they teach us that it doesn't help to snoop, and I think that's usually true. But a little snooping, for a little while, was good for me because it helped me come out of denial. I found that he had those little airline bottles, refilled with alcohol, hidden everywhere. He'd go down to the basement to get the laundry, have a nip, and come back up with the laundry. (Or sometimes he'd forget the laundry. That's how I began to catch on.) He had them in his car. He had them in his office. I had no idea. I'm sure 99% of the people around him had no idea. But you can't live a life filled with such compulsiveness and stay sane. Really his every thought was devoted to keeping up his intake of alcohol. I began to see this very gradually. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing came into view for you.
Our children also see more than we think. By the age of three or four, I think children start to realize something is "funny." If the grown-ups don't talk about it, the children learn that it must be denied and never talked about. They learn that secret rule, "What's never mentioned doesn't exist." For that reason I think it's good to be straight with them, and bring it up, not wait for them to do it. But one is too young for a kid to understand. Your own understanding and recovery will have developed greatly before your child is old enough to have a talk about it all.
I believe that it is up to the person that drinks to decide whether he or she is an alcoholic. Until that person decides that alcohol is a problem, it isn't a problem for them.
That said, someone else's drinking can certainly be a problem FOR ME, whether that person admits it or not. It's MY problem with someone else's alcohol consumption that qualifies me for AlAnon.
Getting Them Sober is a great book ... when I brought it home, my AH laughed and asked if I'd be trying recovery tactics on him. I'm not sure he believed me when I said that the book really had nothing at all to do with changing him, and everything to do with changing me. The title is very misleading - but many people come to AlAnon with the hope of changing someone else, so perhaps the title encourages those people to pick up the book and read it, and start to understand that we simply cannot decide for someone else what the "right" thing is. Whether or not we agree with someone else's choices, those choices do not belong to us - so the focus becomes, WHAT WILL I DO?
For me it doesn't matter if the A thinks they are an A or not. I also can't decide for someone else if they are or not. What I think doesn't matter. An A has to decide for himself if he is an A. I can expedite that process for him by not enabling his behaviors that might bring him to that realization. I can learn about that by working a program of Al-anon and learning about my own boundaries.
I can spend all the time in the world analyzing another person, but it is wasted time as I can do nothing about my findings. I can also spend the same amount of time on myself and work on myself. That is where I can make the difference.
I just wanted to clarify my response and my thoughts here. For years my A maintained that I was overly sensitive to drinking and was controlling, and that if I'd just become normal, I wouldn't mind about his drinking, because no normal person would mind about the small amount of drinking he did.
This really threw me for a loop. I'm used to considering myself wrong, inadequate, and defective, so it seemed very possible that I was making a mountain out of a molehill.
That's why it was very helpful of me to check with others and confirm that it was a problem for me because it was problem drinking. Not because I was a person who made problems where none should exist.
So I know that feeling of thinking, "Sure, it's a problem for me, but should I just suck it up and deal, because maybe I just make problems where none exist?"
Some people in Al-Anon will be with the "obvious" alcoholics who pass out or get DUIs or live under bridges. But a lot of us have A's who are alcoholics in more subtle (but still very damaging) ways. As you hear the stories of people who come to Al-Anon, Angelika, I think you'll find many stories much like yours. And you can say, "People who live with alcoholics like that have a big challenge, because it's a big challenge to live with so much compulsive drinking and insanity." Are you in the right place? Absolutely.
Mattie's reply reminded me that I face much the same wall with my ABF and his use of pot. I'm too uptight, I should loosen up about pot, EVERYONE smokes it, he enjoys it, he just uses it to expand his mind, blah blah. And he understands recovery because he's a recovering alcoholic, so he knows his use of pot isn't a problem.
His supply ran out the week before Christmas (a drug dealer that's chronically unreliable, who'da thunk it? ) and he was absolutely frantic to get more, plus incredibly irritable. I could recognize the classic withdrawal symptoms, plus the true extent of his dependency on pot -- but he didn't see it at all. Until then, I was really starting to believe that I was overreacting.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
If he is drinking a mind and mood altering chemical of which alcohol is but one and maybe the oldest then his thinker isn't working good...it is altered. Just because he says it isn't doesn't mean he is not because he is a better thinker. I learned early on that when the alcoholic says "I think" you can hear God laugh. Work on knowing the difference between your husband and your alcoholic...the difference is huge. That gives you a heads up on which one to listen to and somewhat believe. Otherwise most of the time your thinking and knowing has it all over his.
Your first question should be, is his drinking affecting you? If so, read literature, go to f2f meetings, go to the meetings on here, post here, etc.
Having said that, I agree with Mattie that it was helpful to me to read and learn about what alcoholism is and looks like and compare it to what my A was doing. I knew DIDDLY SQUAT about alcoholism and grew up in a home largely alcohol free, so lack of knowledge was as much a problem for me as was denial.
Meanwhile, my A was in complete denial and acted as though I was overreacting, even denied doing things while drunk that I KNEW he did. So it was helpful to me to read up, probe, post here, etc and analyze whether his behaviors seemed to fall on the alcoholism/compulsive drinking side of the spectrum.
You might google alcoholism and look at some of the diagnostic criteria, but IMHO, his drinking plainly seems excessive and NOT NORMAL to this wife of a recovering A. There is so much that seems out of control about it -- he has increased the frequency to the point that it is nearly daily, he can't sleep without it, he sometimes drives after drinking, he throws up, he has fits of rage. If you were an objective third party looking at this list, would you think it's normal? I think you already know the answer.
Its so hard because we are still sort of young-ish and most of our friends and family still "party"... nobody to his extreme I don't think, but I really think that he does not see anything wrong with what he does. 2 out of 3 of his brothers smoke pot on a daily basis as well. And its not like I didn't do my share of "partying" when I was a teen and in my young 20's but I grew out of it over the years like most of my friends... and he just didn't.
Also the hardest part is that his father is the exact same way so I know he grew up watching that and thinking it is normal. And I have already discussed with my therapist all the ways I think his self esteem has been affected by his childhood- mostly being bullied very badly by his older brother.
Anyway I think I do know in my heart that something is wrong... I think I have always known it. I just wanted to be 100% sure before I start down what I know is going to be the hardest path of my life, whether I choose to stay or go. Either way I will take the advice of all of you and not make that decision now and instead go to meetings, read, and take a few months to see how I feel.
I can't say enough how kind all of you are... I have been on other support forums (mostly for infertility- we had problems getting pregnant) and although everyone there was super nice as well, this is like a whole new level.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I've been there. I totally understand NOT wanting your husband to be an alcoholic, and I totally understand wanting to understand everything, what does this mean, what does that mean.
You found your way to these boards. What does that tell you... I was where you are not that long ago.
I'm younger too. I'm 29. My AH is 28. Most of our friends, and my family, party and drink...so, for a few years I was in denial, convincing myself that my husband wasn't an Alcoholic. It hurt less. Or, so I thought.
My husband for a few years, had 3-4 beers a night, about 4 times a week. Although he didn't drink that much, he still became someone so far from the loving, caring, compassionate person I feel in love with...his moods and behavior grew much worse over time.
Then, for a few years, my AH starting drinking in secret. He would have 5-7 beers that we could see, but would secretly chug vodka. He would get hammered this way, Friday and Saturday night. He would secretly drink vodka 3 times a week while in school. This continued for 2 years - he earned a masters degree while this was going on...in the health care profession, as an Occupational Therapist.
I would tell myself: well, he didn't eat much today, he's just stressed, school is tough ect... I would ask myself and my friends: is he allergic to alcohol? I remember thinking it was weird that me, all our friends, we all drank the same amount at the party or wherever we were...and we were all fine, yet AH was stumbling all around, becoming progressively more belligerent and cruel. I KNEW he was secretly drinking vodka, on some level, I KNEW...but I didn't want that to be the case. I wanted it to be because he didn't eat that day.
This quickly progressed.
They say alcoholism is progressive, it's true. Very true.
My AH used to be functioning. Not so much anymore.
So, he went from getting way too hammered on the weekends and secretly drinking vodka during the week (I'd say 5 drinks a night or 5 shots of vodka a night...maybe more).
To a big bottle of Vodka a day. (I'm not familiar with what they are called - but the big one).
He got fired from his first real career job. He was offered by the union to get his job back, they would help him, he didn't care, didn't try, all he cared about was his next drink. He didn't worry about finances, he worried about drinking.
He ended up suicidal in a psych ward.
He ended up passing out half dead at another job (one where he was responsible for the care of a child with a disability) and rushed to emergency in an ambulance.
Now, my AH is in detox heading for rehab. He has become the very person he himself used to teach life and coping skills to! He applied for the Occupational Therapy job at the detox place, a friend from school now works there and holds groups of which he is now the student in.
It is so sad.
If you think there is something not normal about your husbands drinking, you are probably right. Learn to trust your instincts and try to learn to stop second guessing yourself. Once I was able to do those things - I felt a million times less crazy.
If you are bothered by his drinking, then please consider Alanon, get some good self help books to read (Getting them Sober is my favorite) and just learning about this disease and taking care of You.
Thanks again for the responses.. I know I should trust my instincts but its so hard because he has really made me feel like I am controlling, dramatic, etc. My nickname with my friends used to be "drama queen" and ever since I was a child I have been very sensitive, etc. So I know he uses that to his advantage and it is hard to argue with. I started reading "Codependent No More" and its weird because everything it describes seems to be my relationship, with HIM ONLY. In every other relationship in my life, I did not feel that most of it applied to me. I feel like I am very emotionally healthy except when it comes to my relationship with him. ???? I ordered "Getting them Sober" but it hasn't come in yet...
Another thing that is weird is that a lot of people describe how their A's behavior gets so angry or hostile or whatever when they are drinking... my AH has the opposite problem it seems? When he isn't drinking he is sort of subdued. He doesn't want to do anything socially, he is barely even polite to my family if they are over, etc. When he drinks, its like he comes to life. He is happy, joking, laughing, so helpful, so willing to do anything for anyone, as long as he can drink while he does it. For example, he loves making me huge dinners. He would happily cook me anything I ask for as long as he is drinking. He is so loving and caring. Its when he isn't drinking that he gives me so much attitude if I even ask him for the smallest amount of help. What do you guys think about that? Oh, well I guess I should mention though that if we DO happen to get in a fight when he is drinking, he does get into a rage.. that happens more when he is drinking then when he isn't.
Angeliki, my ABF is more like yours when he drinks -- the happy party guy. Unless his best friend or I (who are the only ones who see him on his benders) challenge his drinking, then he will get verbally nasty, tell us to f--- off, get out of the house, etc. But for the first few days of a relapse, he would be playing loud music all alone in the house, singing and dancing around, while telling us he was having a GREAT time.
My ABF was gifted intellectually as a child, and very introverted, so the only way he felt that he could interact normally with others was when drinking. He is also very reserved emotionally and becomes much more loving and expressive when drunk. This is the sad part for me, having seen that depth of emotion while he was hammered out of his mind, that I never get to see when he's sober. Booze disinhibits him and tears down that huge wall he normally has between himself and the rest of the world. Of course, there's no way I'd trade the sober BF for the drunk one.
The outward manifestations of alcoholism may be different, depending on the drinker's underlying personality, but the end results are the same. I see more similarities between the personalities of my ABF and my ex-ABF, who are otherwise VERY different men, that I attribute to their common alcoholism: selfishness, immaturity, inability to delay gratification, self-absorption.
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
I think alcoholism had many different faces. Some are happy drunks, some are mean, some keep their jobs, others don't, some drink vodka, others beer, some secretly drink, others not as much. At first I would say things like: Well my AH doesn't hit me or become abusive while drunk, or my AH still has a job ect...
I wouldn't say my AH is angry or hostile while drunk. My AH used to be more happy or outgoing while he was drunk, then slowly, he became a tad cruel, saying kinda harsh things to my mom, nasty comments to friends here and there, then eventually, he just became a totally different person while drunk. Sometimes, while hammered, he would come up to me and tell me a story, he'd be laughing, outwardly looking like he was enjoying himself, but inside he was a mess. To me, he looked like an absolute fool, he was so smashed he had no idea how he appeared to me, or anyone else.
Usually my AH would be more or less happy while drunk, but as soon as I would enforce a boundary (you sleep downstairs cause you're drunk) or as soon as I would give any indication that I knew he'd been drinking, he would turn into that other person. Become mean, rude, belligerent, stopping at nothing to get me to fight with him, he would try and try using every single manipulation tactic in the book to convince me that he was not drunk.
My AH was also very loving and caring while drunk. It's like he was just delusional, thinking if he showed affection or whatever, well then I wouldn't know he'd been drinking. He would come up to me, kiss my head, pat my hair, rub my shoulders....while falling over or getting a watch caught in my hair then ripping my hair out, out having no idea what he was doing...eventually I would get annoyed, then AH would become that other person again.
That 'other person' became worse over time, eventually, it was that 'other person' who was there with be 80% of the time, while the man I fell in love with rarely making an appearance.
Irritability is a huge behavior present in, I would imagine, most A's.. at least from what I read in books and hear in open AA meetings I attend. When my AH was not drinking, he was IRRITABLE. He wanted to quickly do all the crap he needed to do, so he could go drink... He was short, jumpy, there was always this urgency in him.
I think it was the drink calling his name....so everything else he had to deal with, phone calls to be made, whatever, was a nuisance, including me.
It's not about what to do TO the drunk to effect change, it's about what we can do for ourselves. It's a great book -- it helped me change the way I interact with my ABF, and reduced my feeling of helplessness in dealing with yet another alcoholic.
) and he was absolutely frantic to get more, plus incredibly irritable. I could recognize the classic withdrawal symptoms, plus the true extent of his dependency on pot -- but he didn't see it at all. Until then, I was really starting to believe that I was overreacting.