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I hope no one minds but I felt I needed a separate thread for this. According to my therapist I am rigid in my thinking at times. i know what she means. I often have to counter my knee jerk reactions to things so as not to respond in the same old way, be open to new ideas etc. But as I explained to her while I admit there is mostly grey area in life, somethings to me are black and white (or right and wrong). Example, murder is wrong, period. Child abuse is wrong, period. She doesn't debate me there. But she points out that my rigid thinking in certain areas is hurting me and detracting from my happiness. Whatever difficulties I'm having in marriage, etc. I'm making it worse for myself. I say "but what I know I know and what I don't know I admit that I dont' really know". I'm not that opinionated that I have etched in stone beliefs about topics I'm really not well versed in. Ask me about something I'm not sure about and I'll say that. Take any topic of debate, usually I'll say I can see both sides. But certain things no. As I said to therapist, "the sky is blue, you can tell me it's purple but that's wrong or not true. I can admit that one day it MAY be purple, I can't predict the future, but right now it's definately blue." My therapist asks "COULD it be purple" and I've lost her at that point. I respond that I can understand that YOU may believe it's purple but you are wrong. And I dont' say I'm right because I want to be right. It looks blue to me, and everyone else on the planet, it's scientifically accepted that it looks blue to us (unless you're color blind which still makes ones impressions of color wrong). I think she's trying to tell me something that she's having trouble articulating. I feel the seed of something in her statements but at the moment I told her, "I'm really not sure what you are trying to tell me"...we went back and forth to no avail. She also told me that "wrong" carries a moral message..... Now she's been very good so far and very helpful. I've resisted her on many things only to later see her point and often agree. This one is baffling me. I know rigid thinking is bad (she'd also challenge me on that word, saying its "not helpful" or "it hurts you" etc). But I feel she's just mincing words here. Probably because she is having trouble putting it into the right words. And for the record, I know I don't have to agree with everything she says, and that she may be WRONG (LOL) sometimes too. Anyone have any idea what I may be missing here?
MJ NEEDING to be right is another one of my defects. I could not be wrong and less then Al Anon suggest stop measuring right or wrong Good or Bad
The ODAT urges us to eliminate all judgement and criticism Everything just is and It is all opinion and is not right or wrong
Many firm facts and truths are being disproved daily as we uncover more about the universe The atom was the smallest particle in the universe when I went to school
Alanon urges us that he opinions held here aree strictly those of the person who spoke them.
It was with this statement that I finally understood that it is all opinion and my opinion is as valid as others but that I MUST respect theirs even if I think they are wrong . How freeing that has been I no longer need to engage!! Perception is reality That worked for me
I remember talking about that with a therapist as well. All opinions, point of views, not right or wrong, or, that's not the healthiest way to look at it anyway. I'm not an expert, far from it... but, here's my share anyway...
Like you, I see and understand the points, but... murder of innocents, child abuse. To me, those are and will always be wrong and the people who don't believe so have their own problems and that is why they don't know it. However, perhaps these extreme examples are not the best.
I've never been opinionated.. I've always been able to see both sides, see both points. My opinion is also easily swayed by new information, different points I never considered before ect...
What I did eventually learn or come to see in a new way was that even though someone is doing or saying something I think is wrong, (or not the best way) that person may not think so..
So, if I tell them it's wrong, that is hurting/testing their beliefs, that they may feel very strongly about (even if that feeling is different than mine). And then they may feel they need to defend their beliefs... then around and around we go, getting no where. So, a healthier alternative may be to just express my feelings about the topic, the approach I would have taken, and work toward a compromise.
I remember last summer, (this has nothing to do with my AH). My mom and my then 10 year old daughter and I were at my uncles pool. My daughter was wearing a two piece and she was walking up and my mom said to her:
"Oh hunny, you are so pretty, you have the cutest little butt and prettiest face, but we need to work on that pot belly". Then my mom rubbed her belly. My daughter look embarrassed, then smirked and jumped in the pool.
I was absolutely furious!!!! I was fuming inside thinking how stupid my mom is, how can she say that, now my daughter is going to be so self conscious and have all these body image issues ect..".
I didn't say anything. I still haven't. I didn't say anything then because I was not in the best place to do so, I knew I wouldn't have been able to control myself. Instead I decided I would learn about pre teen body image issues, self esteem, ect, which later I did. And, I regularly talk about healthy eating at home with my daughter, so, I was fine with myself and knew I was doing my part, educating her and encouraging healthy choices. When we got home I told my daughter she was beautiful. She smiled and said: "you too mommy!".
(and by the way, my daughter is not fat, her BMI is normal range, she just has a pot belly while the rest of her is skinny). Although even if she was obese I still wouldn't agree with what my mom said).
Now, I know my mom had good intentions. It came from a place of love. My mom really does believe that if she points out 'flaws' in others, it might be what they need to do something about them. She really has no clue that people are well aware of their own 'flaws' or areas that need to be worked on... and that they KNOW these things without her telling them so.
I didn't say anything to my mom back then. But, having worked through this a bit, I think if I would have said something like:
"mom, I would like it if you tried not to point these things out, I'm worried about her developing issues".
That is very different than if I would have blow up and said: "Mom, how could you! That's so wrong!".
The former... would be more likely to inspire conversation around developing issues, whereas the latter would just challenge my mom's beliefs and be more likely to lead her into defending those beliefs and justifying her actions.
I just let it go, did things I could control, like learn about body image issues and education about healthy choices, telling my daughter she is beautiful.
I know, I will never be able to control how my mom thinks and what she believes in.
Two slogans come to mind that help guard my serenity:
"How important is it?" and
"Would I rather be right, or would I rather be happy?"
I may open up a huge can of worms here, but in my recovery, I have come to a place that I accept I don't know if murder is "wrong." (Child abuse is quite a bit harder, I have to admit.) And I'll tell you why I say this... I don't understand all things. I don't understand karma, if such a thing exists, and I don't understand reincarnation, if such a thing exists... I am LIMITED in my human understanding.
Do these things affect me emotionally? they do, they're painful, but can I say with absolute certainty that they're "wrong?" They are happening. There may be a purpose and I just don't understand.
As for the sky... an artist would see some purple and some green... It is a simplistic answer to see the sky as only "blue." The sky is full of light and light waves are composed of all colors.
Take what you like..... (((hugs)))
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
Hate to tell you but the sky has been purple, pink, blue, grey, yellow....and more.
Things don't have to be set in stone. (except for me I believe the Bible and follow it totally) What i mean is, this.
My friend when I was growing up had a strange mom. I mean food was great, house clean but she was different. Said things that I did not get. But as I grew up with this friend, I saw how dad loved her so much. Mom really had no bad influence.
Now as I type I wonder if she was A? I am thinking it is us that make a big thing out of stuff.
Daughter can be taught that mom and I are not always right you know. If you ever get confused or wonder about something, just ask me.
I would not ever put the other parent down and say how wrong they are. I would ask the kiddo what do you think of that if they brought it to me.
I remember teachers well one in particular was so darn mean to his students. He would tell them they were the worst class he ever had. Told them they would never be anything, just waitresses and work at the dump.
My daughter raised her hand and said to him," What if we are happy being a waittress?" When I went to a conference he shared that. /Told me my kids were enigmas. I had to go home and look that up!
My kids were always taught to say how THEY felt. They came to me to tell me things. Though you feel protective, I wonder how much would be ignored if you backed off.
Letting our kids choose to come to us, lets us know what is important to them.
Have you ever considered what YOU think is wrong, is not wrong?
Myself I have to say, ok this is my experience. I may be wrong. Its all "I" know. But I am very open to listening to others. I also know that when I was 20 I thought something the opposite way at 30 and so one. Things change.
Sounds like there is tension when daughter eats. This concerns me more than anything. If she is anything Like me, that is NOT the time to be arguing or having any negative talk.
Daughter is in therapy. So there she can bring up what bothers her.
Our kids are going to hear crappy things in their life. We cannot always be there. I am sure your daughter knows, at this point what to filter out. Sad that it is her own mother saying vial things though. But again we honestly don't know what daughter feels.
As far as waffles....yes look up diabetes. I would never correct mom in front of daughter, never. If you have a predisposition for diabetes YES eating too many waffles can trigger our body to not have enough insulin. Too much carbohydrate, too much sugar, too much fat.
So there is a perfect example how you may not always be right. Just does not matter who is right or wrong. It is more the issue of the dynamics in your home.
It is not the waffle it is the compulsive need to protect, and constantly be at mom for what she says. It is the uncomfortable situation that is so horrible on daughter.
If you don't make a big deal out of things she won't! Gets to more, OH that is just how mom is, that is just how mom thinks.
We have to remember the way WE feel is not always how our kids feel!
Kids are not stupid, they sometimes realize things more than we do.
As some have shared, they know how they felt when a parent was mean to them. Maybe the question would be."OK what did you need when one parent was always correcting the other on how they treated you?"
We may have it in our mind that the sky is blue, which it is sometimes, but it is true scientific fact sometimes it is other colors.
She is asking you to see beyond your own cement walls. There are many ways of looking at things. Many options we can choose.
We may be making something far more important than it is by harping on it becuz WE think we are right.
Hope this helps some. Just an old lady sharing what her view is, and it may be a view that will change some tomorrow. love,debilyn
I have a different take on this, I think. My sponsor says: "would I rather be right, or would I rather be happy?" She says that sometimes she knows in her head that she is simply RIGHT. But, just as she does not need other people to provide affirmation that she is a good person and "okay" anymore because she can do that for herself, she can also affirm for herself that she is right. She does it once, in her head, and then lets it go.
I kind of agree with her about this. When I am very passionate about it, I feel that I am "right." I think it's okay to feel you are right - provided that you can treat someone else with respect about it and recognize that what you feel is "right" may not be right for someone else. No need to debate the color of the sky - you know it's blue, and you can tell yourself "I'm right!" in your head, even if someone else says purple. And then, move on - after all, how important is it if someone else believes something different?
This one is something I have difficulty with and have been inventorying a LOT lately as I am trying to learn more about my response to anger. My experience below doesn't have to do with your direct example, as I have little to no experience co-parenting. But I believe it does have to do with the "right" and "wrong" your therapist is referring to. (maybe)
Getting upset. My exA seemed to be in that state quite a bit - boss, friends, everyone around him seemed to get his feathers ruffled. If it wasn't directed at me - then all was fine. I didn't take his behavior/feelings on as my own or let it ruin my day and rarely had an opinion. I enjoyed being his sounding board. But, when he turned the cross hairs on me it was a completely different thing. (my daughter would fall into this category too - but that was never an issue)
When he got disappointed if felt very much like a "moral message". I had done something "wrong". I would defend and get angry back. I had to be "right" - I had done nothing "wrong". I would usually hit back pretty hard. He would say over and over - "just because I am upset doesn't mean you are 'wrong', it just means I am upset."
He was right (she says through gritted teeth). I didn't think he had valid reasons for being upset (nice huh?) and I didn't think I was 'wrong' or 'bad' (which is how his behavior translated to me) so I got angry at him in return, defended my position, and ultimately pulled away from him.
Anyway - my point is that his behavior was "x" and my response was "y". I had to put a label on it "right, wrong, good, bad" and of course I always had to be "right" and "good".
Here is an example:
We go to a family's wedding. He is not invited as the bride and groom invited me + 1 and the plus one was obviously my daughter. This was new biological family we just found and we both needed to spend time with. I actually pushed back to try to get him in - but it was just not the right thing to do per Emily Post . But, I invite him along, pay for everything - we go play in town before the wedding - have a great time - but he has to hang out while we are at the wedding. I didn't think it would take as long as it did - so I texted him when dinner hit the table - obviously we would be longer. My daughter and I got back to the hotel room and I was going to grab him and take him back for dancing etc. Now that dinner was done and the "head count" was no longer an issue, he was more than welcome and I was excited about it. We open the door and his anger almost blows us over and he didn't say a word and stormed out. My BRILLIANT daughter just blows him off and goes to bed. Another "fit" - she was used to them. Me - I chase after him and he simply says "I feel abandoned, not respected, angry, hurt, etc." (Good job using I messages) "You left me here for 4 hours!!!" Again, I am not listening or validating him - even if I don't agree with him. He has just ruined my time (because I let him) and I am MAD. My response - WTH!!! And we are off. I am right, he is wrong, and we spent 3 HOURS defending our positions and pulled out all the guns and all of our past to beat each other with. Absolutely ruined what could have been a wonderful weekend.
All that kept running through my mind was "You always ruin everything!!!" And the gloves are off. Ouch!
All because he had some bad feelings.
My daughter is wise beyond her years. I should have just gone to bed. I can guarantee, knowing him like I do, he would have calmed down and an apology would have been forthcoming that night or in the morning. Instead we just proceeded to hurt each other mercilessly for hours.
Until I started really digging around my response to anger - this weekend blowing up in our faces was purely on him. Now I see that we both played a part. I don't think his feelings were appropriate - but that is out of my control - and I sure can't say whether they are right or wrong - and they sure don't dictate whether I am right or wrong. Throwing gasoline on it sure doesn't help!!!! Now I see the truth and we ran into this problem over and over and over. We went through a lot of really ugly stuff - but this was always the issue that killed us. Why couldn't I just let him have his feelings?
I hope that helps. Not even sure I get it. I *think* it may be for us to just set aside "right" and "wrong". People are going to do things that make us upset. How can we respond to that so we don't feed the fire, especially within ourselves? How can we respond with compassion - and take care of ourselves? We will get angry, but going after a person carrying a bat just doesn't seem productive at all. Neither does doing nothing and carrying the resentment around with us. I did that A LOT more than fight back per the example above. I would just withdraw which would make him even more crazy!
I have a VERY hard time dealing with confrontation or people being upset with me. It rarely happens - I make pretty strong efforts to avoid it. So, I go and get together with someone who is upset frequently and have NO tools to deal with it. It was a huge mess and I carried a lot more responsibility for that mess than I thought.
Am I making any sense? Sorry - this is a big one for me and I am still struggling with it and that is obvious by my rambling drivel here.
"Beliefs aren't etched in stone . . . unless the brain is made of rock."
Tricia
-- Edited by tlcate on Saturday 18th of December 2010 03:40:55 PM
__________________
To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.
This is a hard one and so central to so much of our behavior.
I don't know what the therapist is getting at about the sky, but in a way the color of the sky is misleading. If the sky is a deep blue, then it is what it is, but many things are less easily definable. I'm sure you know the story of all the blind men feeling the different parts of the elephant and describing what an elephant "is." There are a lot of things like the elephant that don't have a simple right-or-wrong description.
Once I read about an exercise to help develop empathy and alternate ways of seeing. You take something you believe, like "Sally was rude when she told me to be quiet" or "My father is ignorant" or "I have more integrity than Joe." Then you reverse it and, as an exercise, think until you see the point of view behind the opposite statement. "Sally wasn't rude when she told me to be quiet" or "My father knows a lot" or "I actually don't have any more integrity than Joe has." Because no truth like that is black or white. But we do tend to get polarized in our own positions and refuse to see the gray areas.
What I find when I do the exercise is that I'm usually heavily invested in my point of view. It's really hard for me to admit that someone else might be right or have a point, or that I might be flawed. It's especially hard for me to think that someone I'm angry at might be okay in some ways, or might even be justified. That means my anger would be less justified, and as soon as I start letting go of the anger, I get very sad and upset and even self-blaming. The anger and self-righteousness are easier.
My mother had a thing where she had to be right, and she was pretty self-righteous about it. There were no gray areas for her. I grew up experiencing how harsh that was. It is disappointing to me that I seem to have inherited that despite myself. I do notice that I get along better with people when I'm not so stubborn. I think ultimately behind my stubbornness is a lot of fear. It's hard to let go of that.
Take what you like and leave the rest. But I just want to say how un-stubborn it is of you to be thinking that your therapist might be right!
. But, I invite him along, pay for everything - we go play in town before the wedding - have a great time - but he has to hang out while we are at the wedding. I didn't think it would take as long as it did - so I texted him when dinner hit the table - obviously we would be longer. My daughter and I got back to the hotel room and I was going to grab him and take him back for dancing etc. Now that dinner was done and the "head count" was no longer an issue, he was more than welcome and I was excited about it. We open the door and his anger almost blows us over and he didn't say a word and stormed out. My BRILLIANT daughter just blows him off and goes to bed. Another "fit" - she was used to them. Me - I chase after him and he simply says "I feel abandoned, not respected, angry, hurt, etc." (Good job using I messages) "You left me here for 4 hours!!!" Again, I am not listening or validating him - even if I don't agree with him. He has just ruined my time (because I let him) and I am MAD. My response - WTH!!! And we are off. I am right, he is wrong, and we spent 3 HOURS defending our positions and pulled out all the guns and all of our past to beat each other with. Absolutely ruined what could have been a wonderful weekend.