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Hi everyone... Im confused and would love some ESH
So, my AH was sober for 4.5 days on day 5, last night, he drank. Last night I was alone in our room reading while AH had a friend over to watch football, after his AA meeting. So, Im reading away and I hear our dog barking so I open our window to tell him quite, but before I say anything I see the husband walk outside, he is drunk, I can tell right away by his swaggerthen I see him creep into our gazebo, then 20 seconds later, he comes out. 2+2 always = 4
I guess I was more disappointed by this because hes been doing well and just got a sponsor so I suppose I was more hopeful for his recovery (yes I know I need to focus on my own recovery!!) :) so the disappointment was intensified somehow
I should not have expectations.. I try not to
Anyway, Im thinking and telling myself, go back to your book, leave him be, what good will this accomplishbut, well, my craziness got the better of me despite the fact that I KNEW it would do not good. In the face of consequences we continue to do harmful things - thats addiction, so I suppose this is my addiction?? Or, my relapse since I've been much better at stopping myself from doing something like this in the past.
So, what do I do, I sneak outside, find his bottle of empty vodka. Then I stand there is the freezing cold starring at it for 10 minutes telling myself I should put it back. But, then I just put it in my pocket. I think, this is badgo put it back. But, I walk inside. The husband is right there when I walk in, without thinking I just put the bottle down in front of him. He says to me while mumbling and stumbling with a blank expression on his face: Oh, did you find that in the car, its from a long time ago I didnt clean blah blah out yet, its still early in my sobriety so theres probably lots of bottles all over the place. I replied: I dont want to talk to you when youre like this, Im going back to our room, please go back to your friend and leave me alone for now.
He follows me.
Same patterns of behaviours are repeated here. He lies and lies, then gets mad, then when I still refuse to talk to him he starts going on and on about how could he possibly be drunk for A and B and C reasons, then when I still hold up my boundary and not talk he gets irritable and starts saying ANYTHING to get me to talk. Well fine Ill sleep downstairs then since you are so mad at me or I will take the picture frame I bough you back since you are so upset you probably dont want anything from me anyway. AHHH!!!
Finally I snapped. I can only hold it together for so long!!! I said to him: I never said those things, you are saying them, if you want to sleep downstairs or return the picture frame, I wont argue with you. He says: Well, you dont like me and you are mad at me.
I just told him I dont want to talk anymore.
He came back in the room 40 minutes later, gave me his bank card to our joint account (I did not ask for this) and he says to me as he places the card on the bedside table: Here, you just let me know when I can do anything anymore. And he leaves. I didnt say anything. I held it in.
Inside I was fuming!!
Ill skip ahead and get to my point here.
So, AH slept downstairs, he saw me crying in the morning and said sorry for a bunch of stuffthen he left to take a bus (originally he was going to drop me off and pick me up at work on his way to his sometimes job he just started...but last night he said he would take the bus cause I probably dont wanna drive with him, I didnt argue).
So, we dont talk all day.
Just now he calls me at work and says, ok, so you were right, that bottle of vodka, I did drink most of it last night, Im sorry I lied, I guess you cant even call that a relapse cause I wasnt sober for long enough, Im sorry I probably ruined your night and your day and Im sorry for so many things, I feel really bad and I love you so much ect he talked for a good while telling me how sorry he was and stuff.
I didnt know how to respond to this I was totally caught off guard.
I just said to him. well, Im a bit caught off guard, I love you too and I guess thanks for being honest.
I wasnt sure how to handle that situation. ??
AH has NEVER admitted to drinking before or, at least hes never admitted it that soon after he drank (next day) and in that direct of a way meaning he just straight up told me, then apologized.
Im also mad with myself for looking for his bottle, finding it, then showing it to him!!! I havent done that in a really long time and I dont understand why I did it knowing the whole time I would regret it.
Although, I regret it less now because AH called and admitted it for the first time ever. But, I still regret it b/c it took the focus off myself, the reading I was doing, the tv I could have enjoyed watchingand made it so I had an irritable husband who pestered and annoyed me for the next 3 hours
-- Edited by tlcate on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 11:09:26 PM
Relax your normal , old behaviors die hard and I am glad he apologized for lying to you , why we ask those stupid questions is a mystery to me Have you been drinking ? when we can see that clearly they have . duh expecting honesty at a time like this is our insanity . You cant stop him anyway so step aside and let it play out the way its supposed to . sobriety is difficult for both of you and he is in what I lovingly call STARK RAVING Sober mode , every nerve in his body is screaming for a fix , cunning baffling and powerful -no kidding . I am picturing you standing in the dark and cold holding that dumb bottle and am reminded of the question who is sicker the alcoholic who hides it or us who spend time looking for it ? that would be me . Get the focus back on yourself YOU can change yourself and often as we change the alcoholic is encouraged to follow us into recovery . Having your own program is a win win situation for you , as you learn to detach from his stuff and get your life back on track , regardless of what he does your going to be just fine . Louise
Hon could you ride a bike your first few tries, or swim well immediately?
NO! It takes time and work to change a behavior. you are doing great. Don't be hard on you, the dang disease makes us nuts sometimes.
I cannot tell you how many times I got upset before I learned to detach and just naturally think, "ok the other one is here again, and leave the room." Not even let it bug me.
The hiding the bottle thing is so sad. I am on five acres with a barn, a pump house and a nice shed. You can imagine how many mt's showed up after he moved on. gads.
Whether he apologises or not, really doesn't matter. YOu know hon he feels guilty when he first hid the bottle. He is not having fun.
If we cave in to their apologies they will use them. Its so sad but when we think they are being so thoughtful or nice, it can just as well, and more than likely be disease manipulation.
Instead of talking to us, they need to call their sponsors.
He sounds like he is trying hard to get into recovery. Good for him. But it is his own path not ours.
All we can do is love them, hope for the best.
You are making progress, even you coming here and sharing is progress!!!!
I am, after so many years still messing up and progressing. Its how we learn.
Abbyal...I definitely felt like the crazier person standing there in the dark and cold starring at a bottle of vodka and being mad at a chunk of plastic wondering what to do, shaking my head, hesitating, taking a step to put it back, taking a step forward..back and forth in contemplation fuming the entire time! I will hopefully learn from this....
I do not expect him to be honest, not ever, in fact, I expect to be lied to.
I was saying I was confused cause the AH has never admitted to this before in such a direct way, the very next day. I was so caught off guard.
Good thing is, after I cried this morning feeling sorry for myself, I shrugged it off, told myself not to let this effect my day, I went to work, and had a good day...and didn't cave and text or call the husband first, as I have done in the past, because I felt so sorry for him and wanted to make sure he was ok...I held off, I just worked....Then, lo and behold, he texts me, then calls to admit he lied.
hmmm.... is that a testament to the power of just letting go, (this one time), forcing myself not to fixate on him and worry about him and how he's feeling, but to instead worry about myself? I don't know for sure...but I don't believe in coincidence. . .
Lyndebi, you said:
"If we cave in to their apologies they will use them. Its so sad but when we think they are being so thoughtful or nice, it can just as well, and more than likely be disease manipulation."
This is part of what I'm struggling with. When he apologizes, I don't know what to say. I don't want to say "it's ok" cause it's not. But, I seems weird to just nod my head...
With others, usually if I'm being apologized to I might say something like: "ok, thanks no problem" or "it's' ok"... or "don't worry about it"...
Well, just typing that I"m seeing/recognizing the needing approval or doing anything to NOT upset the other person thing coming out in me...often, if someone needs to apologize to you, they did or said something that was not ok...so replying with "it's ok" is me avoiding confrontation...which I often do. Not healthy.
I have no problem telling family how I feel whenever they upset me, in fact, sometimes I run my mouth off too much which isn't always good then I end up being the one who needs to apologize.
When it comes to friends, however, often, I just try to forget about it. Not to say my friends often do things or say things that bother me, but there have been times...and at those times, I don't say anything or tell them how I feel... I just want the situation to pass so we can forget about it, avoid confrontation, and just go on being friends....
The thing about apologies is that they're pretty useless without changed behavior. So I wonder what a response would look like that acknowledged that. I guess I would say something like, "Thank you for acknowledging how difficult that was for me last night. It's so hard for me when you can't talk straight to me because you're not sober. The thing that would have the most impact is if you kept going for recovery. I have to concentrate on my own recovery." That's not ideal, but I was going for something that didn't have shame or blame but was authentic and didn't gloss over the difficulties.
One of the things that used to drive me nuts about my A was that he would apologize for some huge thing and expect me to be over it just like that. "Heh, somehow I crashed your car on the way home, and then, okay, I got home and peed on the front door. I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't have done that. Okay? Dinner ready?" My internal response was $#@*!! Sometimes that was my external response too. It takes a lot of practice, doesn't it? But it all gets clearer with time.
i can relate to your experience, there were many times my husband was supposed to be off drink, then on the way home from a day out, he would begin asking me if he could have a couple of drinks that night, would I mind?
I would (depending on how I felt) sometimes tell him to do what he liked, or other times get very upset that once again he was breaking his word having perhaps ended his last bout of drinking with some unsatisfactory behaviour that would lead me to laying down an ultimatium, thing is he always apoligised and admitted he knew he shouldnt/couldnt drink, always said he knew it was hurting me, and always said he would stop, but never did, anyway,
I do suffer from PTSD and anxiety and being around someone drunk can intensify my feelings, so to make me feel "safe" he would offer a compromise that he would only drink say 4 cans, then I would like you discover other cans/bottles hidden around the house, he would argue with me that they were from another time, and I would become very angry.
I often tried to stay in my bedroom and leave him to it, knowing he was in the other room drinking more than he should have, getting drunk, and that it would lead to some kind of drama that night, sometimes if my anxiety was very high, I would go in and out of the room checking, counting what he was drinking, worrying, trying to control the situation, watch helplessly as he became more and more drunk, as he laughed or jeered at me, or argued with me,
next day he was always sorry, always made more empty promises and always broke them, I dunno, I struggle now with this concept of only thinking of ourselfs, of being in a home with someone drunk, letting those scenes unfold in front of my eyes and supposedly staying detached and only thinking of me.
perhaps someone could help me with this? for now my husband is not drinking, and I accept that what I was doing was very sick and unhealthy, but I cant seem to visulise a situation where I live with my AH and teach myself to detach and allow them to live in my home and just get drunk and cause havoc and chaos, is that what Al Anon are able to teach someone like me to do????????
I am just thinking or wondering out loud here, any advice around this would be much appreciated thanks.
I think.... many of us are WAY too hard on ourselves, with respect to the "shoulds" and "should not".... Al-Anon is a program that helps people learn what will work, and what will not - primarily aimed at our own self-care and best interests, trying to turn our focus away from our A's and their behaviors, and focussing instead on our own....
All that being said - I would venture that 99.9% of us "fought" at least some of these concepts, and many of us continue to do so.... there is no 'right or wrong', just some proven techniques for what will help you in the long run....
Try not to beat yourself up too much - your behavior is very understandable, based on the chaotic situation that you are living in..... I had to smile when I was asked by one of my ex-AW's counsellors why I thought I had to do everything, to which I answered "I am the only sane one in the house"
He replied to me - "who says you are sane?"
That was a real awakening for me - her addiction was affecting me more than I could have ever imagined, and I was, indeed, sick - and desperately needed help..... For me, that was a turning point, where/when I chose recovery - for ME....
Thanks for the post, and you're doing great....
One of my favourite (made-up) sayings:
Self-awareness is great, but don't allow it to escalate to self-mutilation.
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
"Thank you for acknowledging how difficult that was for me last night. It's so hard for me when you can't talk straight to me because you're not sober...."
Thanks Mattie, I like that and I'll try it next time.
Falite - my Ah used to ask me things like: "is it ok if I have a few beers". I learned eventually to reply with something like: "You tell me.., will that be ok?".
I just learned to never say yes or no cause, to the A, both these answers made him irritable.
If I said yes then he's mad cause he thinks I'm lying and pretending it's ok...then he gets mad cause I HAVE a problem with it - and if I said no then he's mad cause I'm controlling him. I could NEVER win!!
Used to be the same behavior as your husb. If my AH had those 4 beers or whatever he was asking for..it was never, ever ONLY that..there was of course hiden beers and vodka all over the place. He never left them out though for me to see, he'd hide it all over the house and the yard, then the next morning he would retrieve all the hiden evidence, pack it up, and drive to a dumpster and dispose of it! Insane. He didn't think his behavior was anything out of the ordinary though - it was MY fault that he had to hide drinking and that he went to extremes to hide it, cause he knew I would get mad. Oh please. If only I wasn't making him act like this!
It drove me so crazy I actually considered becomine an alcoholic myself to 'show him' how it felt! Well, that was my own insanity!
So, I started saying..."you ask yourself, or you tell me, if that's ok" then I would walk away. Of course he would follow me sometimes and pester me...but eventually, it got better.
Now the AH has admitted he's powerless ect (step 1) and says he wants to stop and needs to stop drinking forever. He's trying really hard, goes to AA daily and just got a sponsor.
So, now, when he drinks, he hides it and lies and lies, progressively getting more and more defensive and ridiculous. And, yep, if I find somthing and confront him about it - it is, of course, from a long ago time, just magically turning up now.
Once I found a bottle of vodka in the back seat of our car and lost it on my AH cause if I got pulled over and cops found that I could get in trouble. AH told me the bottle was old...from long long ago. I told him I just cleaned the entire car 2 days ago (which I had done, inside and out) so, the bottle is new. He replies with "well, no you didn't clean the car, you're lying because I see a Slurpee cup back there and I never bought a slurpee in the last 2 days so that means you never cleaned the car 2 days ago because if you had, the slurpee cup would not be back there, you would have thrown it out".. AHHH.. Seriously, they stop at nothing!
and, yep, that's what alanon can help you with..how to not let their crap effect you so much.
I tried to control his drinking for years... I NEVER made any progress, ever...and I in fact became more and more crazy as time went by. The things I have done, the lengths I've gone to, the money I've spend on trying to control and supervise and spy on him... it's absurd and got me no where.
Although, I'm probably better suited now for a job with the CIA...I think I became a secret agent... with all my spy software and technology and following and snooping and spying and uncovering of information and documenting of events and drinks. Oh my was I ever insane...it consumed my life!! It's ALL I thought about.
I feel much better now that I'm learning to and starting to just let it be.
If you read my above post I said something about the power of letting go. For the first time I DIDN'T call or text the AH to see if he was ok. I let it be, I went to work and just focused on mysef, had a good day. Then, the Ah texts me and calls me! To say sorry and admit he lied the night before. This has never happened before. Coincidence? I don't believe in 'em. . .
-- Edited by danielle0516 on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 02:18:05 PM
gosh your story is so like mine, except in that my hubby just stopped drinking 7 months ago since we broke up, but he doesnt go to AA or anything like that, doesnt do a program, he has a counsellor being going for 4 years, at the moment she has been unwell coincidentally shortly after we split, and she wont be back at work for some time yet, however he made no effort to see someone temporary even though she put that in place, and what threw me was when he first started seeing her he never mentioned his drinking to her even though she is an addictions counsellor, and a few months into him seeing her when he said he was working well with her and I mentioned that it was a relief he had found someone he liked and could work with and the added bonus being she was an addictions counsellor he turned all frosty and snapped at me "dont tell me what to discuss in therapy" but it wasnt that i was telling him merely pointing it out, but it struck me that he wasnt even discussing the drinking or the problems it caused.
She was very much shocked when we split, she didnt even see it coming whereas my counsellor did, simply because he wasnt working with her but instead hiding it from her about the drinking and problems thats what makes me so wary about a reconciliation, and the fact I mentioned somewhere else on here how he has suddenly managed now without drink for 7 months, has no cravings, no program etc etc, and yet when I was with him according to him he couldnt live without alcohol, so I am confused, is he alcohol dependant, or was he just stringing me along chancing his luck, a heavy drinker maybe?
Hey Falite.. Well, if he was an alcoholic and quit on his own with no program and no AA suport and meetings, then... well, I don't even know if that's ever happened..maybe he was a heavy drinker, alcohol abuse instead of alcoholism?
If he kept drinking despite all the negative consequences it had on family, relationships ect... AND if he hid how much he drank...then felt guilty about it, I would say he was an alcoholic.
My husb had a therapist too. It drove me CRAZY knowing he probably was no where near honest. I wanted to be in that session so bad to 'tell on him'. Maybe that's me wanting to be in control...but also, if we were paying $600 + dollars a months for therapy....I'm thinking, take advantage!! Be honest!!
Of course, everything was always the fault of: anxiety, the weather, me, my behavior, the angle of the sun in the sky (well, I'm being sarcastic here..helps with my sanity), the school work, the job, the cat, the dog ect... ANYTHING but Drinking!
You guys broke up...then he stopped drinking? I'm not totally clear....?
My husband said he didn't go through withdrawal/detox while he was in a psych ward for a little over 2 weeks. But, he did. He, and even some of the clueless doctors, just weren't looking for it, didn't want to see it.
no no no.. he was sweating, pale, shaking, trembling, agitated, nervous ect.. because of: well, see above list. But, not alcohol detox!
They don't discuss the drinking and the problems it causes because they are not ready to deal with that. . . yet. Not ready to accept they are A, ask for help, - they are embarassed and ashamed and probably feel overwhelming guilty. I can't imagine.
Reading this thread has made me feel so much better. I'm a new member and this is my first post.
but the stuff about finding bottles and the lying and the apologizing the next week or few days. (I've found bottles hidden in the couch, the spare room, even on the property behind my house that I don't even own!! and it's directly behind my house! - ya those bottles just walked themselves out there!)
I've been going through this stuff all this past year! And finally this week I decided that it has to stop! I cannot change him and thats when I went looking for ways to help myself - and I found this forum! ( YAY).
The thing that really gave me a wakeup call was how many times he had apologized and man did he really sound sincere!! VERY CONVINCING, I mean the way he'd say stuff, I was really thinking 'wow! he really understand how I've been hurt and probably will think next time". but then it would happen again - the part of me that has been in recovery for co-dependance issues ( I was in therapy even before i met him & when we started dating I had no idea he was an A), but that part of me that has gotten healthier is saying 'wait, what is going on?, this KEEPS happening!' realizing that the apologizing isn't fixing anything, it's not making him think about his actions more. It's merely giving me 'what I want to hear'
so wow, this thread really hit a chord for me. I mean this in a very good way, but I actually chuckled a bit realzing - OMG I've done that. I mean that in a very 'ah ha' lightbulb moment way. Its nice to be able to read about other's roads to recovery, a reminder that I'm not the only one. and man does it seem like there is a very typical 'A' behavior pattern!
-- Edited by freewilltoday on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:29:31 PM
Hey freewilltoday! Welcome. :) You will find so much strength on these boards...I know I do. No one, no matter how much they love us, could possibly understand the way Alanon-ers do. Well, that's been my experience anyway.
Oh yes, there is always an excuse for the bottles. "I don't know how they got there, oh, that's really old from a long time ago, I think your friend left that there last night, ect..."
Once, I got home and there was a huge bottle in the recycling bin that AH had put on the curb for garbage day not long ago. I asked him about it - he pretended he didn't know why or how the bottle got there. He said someone must have been walking by and put it in our recycling bin! Ya, that's right, at 2 in the afternoon in broad daylight in the suburbs on a quite bay (not lots of traffic at all) some random person was just walking down the street, finished a huge bottle of vodka, then was respectful of the environment enough to dispose of it in a recycling bin!
(In reality, AH was probably just drunk and not thinking straight - so he forgot to hide it better...) The lies and excuses are never ending and are, at times, so unbelievably ridiculous you look at the A and truly believe, yep, they are absolutely insane.
They can be so relenting, so convincing that we start to second guess ourselves, despite the evidence, this is hard. Now, I just trust my instincts, I know. There are about 20 different 'tells' and when I even suspect one of them, I know.
Try not to take it personally...it's such a horrible disease and all the hurtful things, the lies, the absurdity, ect.. it's the disease talking.... not the person.
When my AH is drunk - I just try to tell myself: Yep, the alternate personality is back...time to retreat.
When my AH apologizes, when he's sober, he is sincere and I believe he means it. I believe he wishes he wasn't an A, and I believe if he could push a magic button and take this disease away, he would.
Words mean almost nothing to me anymore. When AH apologizes or admits he lied, I'm grateful he acknowledges stuff and how hard it was for me to 'deal with him' while he was drunk...but, I don't want to hear any promises or excuses. He knows this now.
Actions speak louder than words, WAY louder. No amount of words can convince me of anything... action will, living it will.
I try to focus on myself, forget about whatever the A is doing, and this helps, a lot. I try to go out more, spend more time with family of friends, do things I enjoy like movies and books, and am basically trying to, as cliche as it sounds, I'm trying to Find Myself again...as I feel the old me is gone, she was kidnapped by alcoholism, I'm currently trying to break free.
I'm glad you found strength in this thread! Keep coming back and posting!! You will get tons of support! :)
So far I have felt so much better reading threads on this board, I still plan to attend a local meeting.
My A is such a convincing person, even when he's sober, he has that crazy charm that everyone believes, and it really upset me in the last year or so when I realized that a lot of it is BS, and I hate that. I just watch him & how he BS's through EVERYTHING! and that hurts me because I feel like a lot of our connection could very well be BS. I feel very much that he just tells me what 'I want to hear' just to make me shut up or go away. and that hurts. it's just amazing to watch someone just lie to themselves constantly too.
So right now it's very difficult for me to decide - is this the truth? what do I believe? is it the alcohol talking or is this just who 'he' is?
I'm really getting better though. i remember the days where I would constantly check the freezer to see how many bottles there were and how empty they were. checking them throughout the night. Now I open the door, I see them, I shut the door. The other night there was a little bottle of vodka in the fridge that he had just gotten, i just looked at it, I didn't get upset, and shut the door. about 2 hours later I opened the fridge to get something else and noticed the bottle was gone. hmmm....oh well.
I just know now that I need to be responsible for myself in ways that I wasn't before. that same night we went out to get food. I asked him how much he had to drink, he replied '3 beers' and I said '.......and' cuz I know he drinks vodka nightly! then he says 'two shots', I told him I was driving no matter how much he said he was 'cool' to drive. NOpe, I'm not dying tonight because you think that you have this amazing tolerance and it's ok to drive buzzed. nope.
So I know I can't even really believe him when it comes to my safety. I need to be responsible for myself, that means keeping myself in the right mind to care for me. before, I would really believe he was 'cool' to drive. there have been times where we were getting ready, and I literally was around him the whole time, we finally get in the car and on the highway. and I can just tell by his demeanor, the way he laughs or responds to something, that he's been drinking. I ask him if he drank and he replied '3 beers'. I would get mad, how the hell did he drink 3 beers in less than an hour and I was 'around' him that whole hour!?! and I also would think 'why are you drinking when you know we're going out, and have to drive!?!'
things like that would make me angry.
ok. LOL vent over. I don't wanna totally hi-jack your thread!
