"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

stephaniej · Senior Member

New Here, with a basic, general question

usedtobeanyer · Senior Member

I'm a newbie, so take my words with a grain of salt--the proper response when he asks you would be "that's not for me to decide". You don't decide if he drinks or not, he does.

I'm sure other wiser, more experienced people will give you better guidance but that is my thought on how you should handle it.

It's his issue. My wife's drinking is her issue. There are times when I really think she wants me to find out she's been drinking. She's horrible at hiding the evidence, and it's made me think she's not hiding it at all. She puts it in the same place so I can find it so I can know what she's been doing. So I can enable her, and keep the cycle going.

I think he wants and expects you to say "no, it is not ok", so you can argue and start that world war and he can feel more justified in drinking.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I've learned it's okay to say what's on my heart just so long as I don't have any expectations attached to it. Telling the A I'm not okay with the drinking doesn't mean the A is going to magically decide to get sober.

There's another saying in Al-Anon that goes "Say what you mean and mean what you say, but don't say it mean."

It's also completely okay to say nothing at all, especially if I feel like I'm not in the right place mentally to handle the discussion. And I've learned for SURE that the disease doesn't like to talk about itself. And trying to have a discussion with the A about his drinking WHILE he's drinking? That always lead to destructive words being thrown back and forth. I really had to wait and watch for those rare windows of time where the A was sober and in a good mood before I'd try and speak my mind.

With me, I eventually got to a point where I really didn't care about the A's drinking. It was all his other behaviors that really agitated me. Really, the drinking is just a symptom of the disease of alcoholism. Many Al-Anon members are shocked when their A's decide to get sober and find that the A's attitudes don't change a bit, or possibly get worse.

It's great you're planning to get to a meeting. If I would add anything to that, I'd say to get to as many meetings as you can - at least six - in as short a period of time as you can. It's a great way to see if the program really speaks to you or not.

Glad you're here.

-- Edited by Aloha on Friday 29th of October 2010 12:50:19 PM

stephaniej · Senior Member

Thanks to you both for the quick advice. I confess I am prone to anxiety and agitation anyway, and the prospect of this family weekend has me worked up, and you both have given me excellent perspectives and options for how to handle this.

UsedToBe: So much of what I'm learning as I read about Al Anon is just the complete and total opposite of how I've been reacting to this situation. Admittedly, in my first marriage, I was married to someone I didn't really love the way spouses should love each other. I was his caretaker. Although he was not an addict, for various reasons he had never developed any major coping skills. I was his mother, a controlled his environment so his life would be easy. When I checked out of the marriage and we ended up divorcing, well...let's just say that it's a few years later and he still refuses to even speak to me (which makes co-parenting our pre-teen daughters interesting). This time around I love my husband so much; more than I ever thought I could ever, ever love another person who wasn't my flesh and blood. Everything he does and says...all the hurtful things he says to me...they cut me to my very core. I have spent countless hours trying to make him understand that he hurts me, and that he exhibits exactly zero compassion for what I go through every day (taking care of 3 kids, 2 dogs, 1 house, working 50 hours a week, all while he is 600 miles away). But I am learning that it is unfair for me to pin my happiness to him and his behavior. I know I will struggle with letting go of the hurt he has caused, and my resentment that he has never apologized for a litany of wrongs. But I know that I have to let it go, and that my intense focus on him and his problems is (1) making my own emotional condition worse, and (2) giving him excuses to continue drinking. I may feel that I deserve better than the way he has treated me these past many months, but I can't expect respect and love from others until I respect and love myself. And I can't expect him to practice empathy and compassion when he is in the grips of this illness. He has chastised me time and again about the "expectations" I place on him, and I always denied that I had any. In retrospect, I absolutely have had those expectations, and I'm starting to understand how those expectations make him feel bad about himself.

I like your "that's not for me to decide" very much. I will have to ponder the best way to say it, so that I am not saying it in a mean way or in a mean voice. He absolutely wants me to say "no" and start a fight. He wants to create a situation where he yells that he's sick of me, and sick of my sh*t, and that he doesn't want to hear it from me, because that creates an environment where he feels better about drinking. I would imagine that, like many alcoholics, my H is his own worst enemy...when he gets angry, the person he is largely angry with is himself.

Aloha: I DEFINITELY need to work on the "not saying it mean" aspect of the program. Loving someone this much has meant opening myself up to pain I never thought I would ever experience. It has triggered a very defensive attitude in me, and I often reply to his hurtful words with anything from "I cannot begin to fathom how someone can say something like that to someone they claim to love" to my own choice hurtful words about our dramatically diminished intimacy. I need to look inward and re-channel that anger and frustration to something more productive that doesn't cause harm to me, my H, or the children.

I am fortunate to work in a big urban area, where there are Al Anon meetings over the lunch hour every weekday. My job is very demanding, but I plan to get out to two meetings next week, at a minimum. I need to make it a priority for myself and my own well-being.

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

wow, great insight from a newbie, when I was new, it was hard for me to keep my own opinion in at all. I like what u said, it isnt ok or not ok... bc that is the truth it is both. It depends on him, see he is asking u for permission, essentially. He wants u to say its ok so he can go about his business.

The problem is, A's need us codependent enablers, to give them a justificaiton, excuse whatever to use what they want. If they can get an emotional reaction and a big rise/outburst out of you, then the disease's script to them says: 'oh seee they are the crazy ones, look at how out of control they are, they are crazy! im fine' and then they go use what they use to numb it all away/out.

Learn to detach with love from his behavior, attitude, emotions and unresolved emotions and issues. Each of us as individuals have to do that for ourselves, feeel-deal-heal, we cannot do that for another person.

Our issue, is we focus on others, it is a defense mechanism & a "coping skill" we may have picked up in our childhood dynamics/patterns with the adults who took care of us. It is all - manipualtion, we blame shift and throw the pain around, trying to get the heat off of us. As martyrs (I was a pro at this) we do for them and sacrifice ourselves - we resent them for not taking our stellar advice and they resent us for attempting  to change them by not accept them as they are now.

In a nutshell, it is very simple: focus on YOU and get healthier, focus on others and lose YOU.

So, I would say accept him right where he is. You can surely tell him that it isnt your choice if he drinks or not. You can even say, u do not wish to judge (if u can mean that and practise it). Let go of judging you too. Focsu on you and what u can do right now and work on that. Look for solutions and not problems. What we focus on, grows and manifests the future and draws it to us, so please, focus on what u want to have and grow, not what u dont want.
   Surrender ur fears to HP and live in this moment. We are supposed to be human and feel bliss, not the confusing hoop jumping thru/over firey hurdles in life - most of us have before we get here. We come in confused and hurt.

So, ur approach is very smart. The truth is, it is not your choice. And the more information we give to the A's (the more we confront them), the more opportunities they have to lie to us. We say - oh I saw this here and next time they make sure they hide it better and lie sneakier. So dont create opportunities in which you can be lied to. They lie to themselves and they believe their own lies. Denial is the base and foundation of this disease.

I learend to say, sure whatver u say and let things go. I quit being the baby sitter and the police man. They have to feel the consequences of drinking b4 they will contemplate changing their behavior. The more we talk abou ttheir problem, the more they dont want to change at all and why should they? All that fighting is such a great excuse for them to justify their own sick behavior.

Learn to see the bait and know what it is. Learn to LOL it off and not take the bait. Misery loves comapny and as u get recovery, he may or may not follow you, he may or may not try to drag you back down and get u to stop changing - they want to keep the status quo going, doing what they are doing.

U dont ahve to be in denial and u dont have to accept unacceptable behavior. Listen and learn and begin to apply what u hear to seee how it works for you in the present. Some techniques seem lame or too easy at first (they did to me, lol) and they are simple and effective. We have to be brutally honest with ourselves and consider what needs to be said - u sd u have trouble wiht the mean part. I love the acronym for THINK - i thelps u to know if what u want to say, needs to really be said:
THINK:   (is it) Thoughtful, Honest, Intelligent, Necessary & Kind? to say

dont try to force anything, ultimatums dont work. Boundaries do and in time, u will see what u want to change and they will help you. Welcome, glad ur here. Accept and embrace u right where u are, define ur own true needs (versus the wants and fantasies) and u will not be compromising yourself anymore. Focus on being hte best and most loving you - to you- u can be. Self love is something I had wished my mom would show me, instead I learned how to critisize me, neglect me, cast my needs aside and be a people chasing, ppl pleasing - seeking validation and attention at all costs from everywhere, ugh.
   So glad as an adult I do have choices today. Take ur time, say let me think about that, I will get back to you and feel it out before u react. Feeel the emotions and then u will be able to respond with calm and some consideration to you.

stephaniej · Senior Member

Thanks Kitty...I really like the THINK acronym. I think I do well with thoughtful and intelligent. I need to work on honest (that is, not say "it's OK" when it's not OK), necessary (not saying every single thing that pops into my head) and kind.

It feels really good to think about things I can do actively, myself, to make MY life better. Things that will ease my anxiety about everything. I spend so much time focused outward, and you are right--I lose myself. Thanks again.

sunflowergirl · ~*Service Worker*~

In my experience, I have found that if my A asks if its ok, it is better for me to say that it is his choice in a calm way. We don't argue, which coming from a marriage that I got out of that was full of arguing and abuse, is really nice.

I have learned here that I don't have to rise to the occasion and argue with anyone. My sponsor put it a good way: The person (whether they are the A or another individual who is trying to spark me) is trying to play monopoly with me and I can keep my game piece in my pocket and walk away. I don't have to play the game with them.

I have learned too that detachment is the best way for me to deal with everything. If I walk around worried about HIM all the time, the focus is not on me. When I keep my mind on me, I am allowing him to be him. It works, really and truly works. I have found in the last few weeks since I started really applying what I am being taught here and in my Alanon literature, that things have become so much nicer.

I am working on no longer snooping on what he is doing, I don't smell his breath or check on him in anyway, I don't give him the silent treatment when I know he has used, I also don't get mean, passive agressive, or yell or coerce in anyway. These things don't work. They make me feel awful and it made our relationship feel bad. Instead I get home, if he has used or not, I greet him the same way, we have conversations, we laugh and things are getting better for both of us.

I am not saying I am perfect. I slip and relapse into my old ways from time to time. But the times are getting fewer and further between. If I do have a bad day, I am more able to acknowledge it, I come here and read old posts, and post a new one, on good or bad days...

This board, Alanon and my sponsor are helping me gain what I never felt I had. I was so codpendent that I have let everyone everywhere walk all over me, feeling as if I had to be the one in pain. Well, no more! I am learning how to speak up, say it, mean it and not say it mean.

I have been here since July... We were all new once, and what you say is a great reminder of what it is like...

Thank you for your share... Keep coming back, and remember, it works if you work it. This is about you now. Keep your focus on you, and take care of you.... We are here anytime :)

-- Edited by sunflowergirl on Friday 29th of October 2010 02:50:59 PM

stephaniej · Senior Member

Thanks, Sunflowergirl. You know, as I sit here and read everyones' responses, I'm starting to wonder that if I successfully detach when he walks in the door, maybe he won't even give me that challenging expression and ask "Is this OK?" Maybe my reactions to his drinking (both verbal and non-verbal) were baiting him to challenge me...something to consider.

sunflowergirl · ~*Service Worker*~

Stephanie, alcoholics and codpendents are excellent body language readers. I have found over time and a post by Jerry that body language can tell all to those of us who read it subconsciously. I am actually beginning to read it consciously, but you are right, your reactions (body language) will tell him everything. My A can read me like a book. I am sure yours can read you just as well... Its a shift in consciousness... To have him come home, and have you happy and loving, will make him respond differently... This is all about you now :) Take care!

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

You've received some great responses above, and the only thing I have to add is - "do whatever you need to do to honor you". Sometimes easier said than done, but I learned to not (or try not) to fall in that trap of telling the A what they wanted to hear....

Good for you in the meetings - they are invaluable, and it sounds like you are well on your way...

Take care
Tom

stephaniej · Senior Member

I suppose the irony in all of this is that I spent a year in therapy during my divorce, primarily because I had never really learned how to identify my own wants and needs. I did a lot of tough emotional work to be able to learn more about myself, after a lifetime of caring for my brother, mother, and first husband. Now I can more easily identify what I want and need, but I still struggle with putting it into action, because I tend to be very conflict averse. I am starting to think that I need to re-frame the issue; working for what I want and need does not have to involve conflict, and thinking of it in that manner is destructive to me and my relationship with my AH. I think I worry so much that he will leave me that it paralyzes me. In fact, whether or not he leaves me is totally outside of my control anyway, so my focus should be on myself.

Whew, this is heady stuff! I thank you all for your kind words and suggestions.

mdh · Newbie

Hello. I am also looking for a meeting in my area. The problem is I do not have transpotation and it is far walking distance. I can't wait to go, because of the support here that I have read, I know this will be a benefit. You have a job and transportation, take advantage of the meetings like you are going to a university to better yourself and empower yourself and this you can share with your children, and others. I was hoping I can get a ride from someone, but I need to somehow evenually get there. By what I read here, they have the knowledge, and this is valuable education. I do understand that sometimes people need to separate, but before a person does, it's good to get some advice from al anon who are aware of how to deal with alcoholics.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"