I am intrigued by all the other questions u have lol honestly.  I am not too sure I even get your point - u dont believe ur sis was compulsive as an addict?  See to me, I am ACoA (adult child of addict/alcohlic) but I know that any kind of dysfunctional dynamic can bring about the same codependent enabling issues in any family - be it work, money, emotions, food, drugs, sex, power, rage or other emotions - all can be used to substitute addictive behavior).  The ppl that live with these compulsive A's - are the enablers.  If u are focusing on others, ur an enabler.  If u are defeding them - either way, u are making this the reality of your life.

Of course smokers are addicted to the chemicals in cigaerettes and that beahvior.  Addicitve behavior is cunning and powerful - and just bc we say we are not addicts if we are out of control, it doesnt make it true.  As codies, we come to alanon, as out of control control freaks, telling others how to live and be - when we ourselves are out of control.  First step is to focus on YOU and own your own behavior, not put it off on others (blame shifting).

We do belive in free will and choice.  Everything we do is a choice.  I am an acoa, not an addict.  I cannot argue how it is a disease for them but I can for me - and I was obsessed with other people and was "addicted" to chaos.  I had to face that to be able to change it.

I personally do call my HP - god as that is how I understand it.  I read that God does not care what we call - him, her it - I also understand god as the holy trinity, it is simply what I know.  God has many aspects and facets and we would burst before we could understand what god fully is, in our human forms.  I do know I have a spark of that light within and that spark is in all of us.  That is the greatest sin of this disease, that we dont believe and trust our worth- all the rest of the abuse stems from that seperation (IMHO).

I also know that denial keeps it thriving and alive.  Acceptance goes a lot further towards understanding something.  If you accept it, u are much more likely to understand.  I didnt realize how I was judging everything I came into contact with, measuring it against what I knew and what was right for me.  I missed out on a lot, while I was so busy keeping scores and comparing.

Anyway it resonated with me when I read god doesnt care what we call it, just as long as we do call and connect with it. 

I apologize, all I have said, is my own opinion.  Take what you like and leave the rest.  I dont mean to be offensive or funny, truly these are my opinions/words that I use for myself and my life.  Alanon is for anyone whose life has been effected by the family disease of addiction/alcoholism.  For me, my part in that equation is codependency, enabling, martyrdom and manipulation. Today, I choose health and program to cope with it and continue to change.

Please take your time discovering what is right or wrong for you, not based on one opinion but base it on your own.  Alanon is the appropriate place to discuss and explore these issues. Glad you found us and hope u keep coming back.  Recovery is self discovery.

Hi Caretaker

I can really understand your position.  Powerlessnes is a difficult concept to accept and implement. 

I finally reached the point that I  understood that  powerless merely stated that:  I was not able to change another person 

They were the only person who could change themselves.

I could explore all the reasons why they did things, I could understand their motives, I could talk day and night to them about what they could or should do but the bottom line was I COULD NOT MAKE THEM CHANGE  That is powerlessness in my opinion. 

Powerlessness does not mean HELPLESS. I have the power over my own life and thoughts.  That is where alanon wants my focus to be.  Once I begin taking care of myself , using positive tools, new avenues of actions opened up in my life.   I am also able to relate to the alcoholic in a positive fashion and changed attitudes can aid recovery.

I see no requirement that you not say GOd if you so choose.  The 12 Steps, which are a foundation of our recovery program  say the word  God in several of the  steps.  HP is used by many but you are free to use God if you like.

There is room for many and all in this program  

 You are not required to accept all or any of our concepts  Just keep coming back and take what you like and leave the rest.

-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 27th of September 2010 03:19:51 PM

It's ok to question things.  How could we learn anything if we didn't question?

The biggest thing I can share from my own experience is that so often I have questioned the "why" of things....why was my husband an alcoholic..why couldn't he just stop drinking....why did he decide to sell drugs and get our own children involved? ...why did my mom have to die the way she did?....why did my sister commit suicide?.................After driving myself into total depression, I finally accepted that sometimes we just don't have the answers to "why".  Sometimes we just have to accept that we can't always analyze everything and come up with a solid answer.

Most of this to me is the first few steps.  I go back to the 1st step every single morning.


Actually I would be more concerned if you were not questioning some situations and beliefs.

My HP is God....and I believe He has the answers ....there is a time for all seasons ........maybe someday I may have some answers or maybe not.  But I do TRUST God that He does know all...................and I don't.

Hugs,
Irish

Good question , I cannot speak as an alcoholic but as the wife of an alcoholic in recovery ,this blurb is from our Service Manual  AL-ANON
We are Powerless over the problem of alcoholism ,page 25 in our service manual .
 
When we can honestly accept this truth , it brings us a feeling of release and hope . We can now turn our full attention to bringing our own lives into order . WE can go forward to spiritual growth , to the comfort and peace to begained from the entire program .

Powerless does not mean helpless ,for me it simply means I have no control over what others do or how they choose to live thier lives as to the Higher Power or God question  one of the obstacles to success in our program is the discussion of religion , anyone can belong regardless of religion , nationality or of none for me it is another way that we show respect for others in our program .. 
I choose to call the Higher Power* God *no one objects I came to this program believing in nothing nor was I interested in learning about it from anyones perspective . so i have gone from Athiest to Agnostic and to now a believer in God ..freedom of choice is what makes this work for me .
To be specific in our meetings would lead us from our primary spiritual aim to recover from the effects of someone elses drinking .
I understand today that I am never going to understand thier compulsion to drink anymore than they will truly understand how thier behavior affected my life .which is no longer an issue for me Al-Anons get me that is all that matters.
If it is an AA perspective your looking for perhaps try the AA board on this site . 

-- Edited by abbyal on Monday 27th of September 2010 04:25:40 PM

Oh hon no reason to apologize ask your questions anytime   I would never tell anyone to not worry just to not let thier behavior consume your life detach with love does not mean to sever the relationship - you have a right to be angry with sis and the right to tell her so ,just dont expect that anything will change but it is important that you speak up . u do that for yourself - a guideline for me is Say what u mean , mean what you say and dont be mean when you say it , alcoholics deserve respect too .
As enablers we pay thier bills , make excuses for thier behavior , cover up thier mistakes  always making the landing a little softer for them , until we stop doing those things there is no reason for them to change .. keep commin back ,keep asking your questions --- until the alcoholic is made to accept responsibilty for thier behavior there is no reason to make any changes .. absolutley nothing changes til Someone changes ..

One of the things that helped me early on to accept the disease aspect of alcoholism was a column I had read in the newspaper early in my Al-Anon recovery. I actually think it might have been a Dear Abby letter. In any case, the person writing was speaking primarily of mental disorders and society's difficulty with accepting people with mental disorders. She wrote something along the lines of "why can't people accept that the brain is an organ subject to malfunction just like any other organ in the human body, like the heart or kidneys?".

That really put it into perspective for me. Seriously, why should we expect that the brain out of all the other organs in our body is going to be the only organ that glides through without any problems?

I also struggle at times with the question of willpower with alcohol. I sometimes think, "well, the folks in AA managed to muster the willpower to get themselves the help they need to arrest the disease." That one still kind of confounds me if I put a lot of thought into it.

The question of free will, however, lies in only that we have free will over our own self and our own self only. If we force our will on another person, there's no promises its going to turn out all daisies and sunshine. As the old saying goes... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Accepting that you're powerless over the addict/alcoholic does not mean you are expected to just lie down and take whatever foolishness the A hands out. In Al-Anon we're told that we do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. The trick is finding out what you can do to change things on YOUR end so you're no longer in a situation of having that unacceptable behavior impact you. This way you still respect the free will of the A, but enact a change in your own personal life that makes things better for you.

None of this is easy. Or rather, it's all easier said than done. When faced head-on with the disease in its full nastiness, it's pretty hard to think with a calm, rational mind. It takes a lot of trial and error. There's no promise you're going to handle each situation in a way where you or the A won't have your feelings hurt. But you'll eventually learn the best responses that at least leave you feeling like you handled yourself with dignity and that you did the best you could where the other person was concerned.

Keep coming back. I suggest getting to some more face-to-face Al-Anon meetings and keeping your eye out for a good sponsor (someone who exhibits a poise you'd like to have in your own life, perhaps.)

This is really a very good thread that you started here Caretaker.
I can only speak for myself and my own experiences here so none of what I say is meant to in anyway offend or upset you.
I grew up with this disease being exactly what you call yourself the "caretaker". In my family dynamic it was my job ( even though i was the youngest ) to go behind and clean up the messes of others and to always make sure they were safe and comfortable because thats what us caretakers do right? I wasn't educated enough to understand truly how cunning and baffling this disease was. And yes it is a genetic disease. Where one person can drink or do drugs recreationaly and walk away from it for some that first drink or high is the hook that keeps them going back.
In hopes to save our children from watching the day to day drama and trauma of this disease my husband and I moved far away. Our children did not grow up seeing a lot of situations where drinking was taking place and certainly no drug use. We honestly thought we could break the cycle with our children. What we didn't know that as both H and I having grown up in addictive, dysfuntional families we had inadverently taken on many of the traits and unhealthy coping skills of those around us. And we had passed along those same traits and coping skills on to our own children never thinking how much our lives had been affected by our childhoods. My son starting using drugs around 15 and in my opinion he drew the genetic short straw on top of the fact he was raised by 2 unrecovered ACOA's. That was 2 strikes against him right there.
He is the one who brought me to alanon. And I struggled and fought the whole "powerlessness" concept as hard as I could believe me. I was his mother and it was my job to "fix" him. I fought it constantly despite the evidance right before my eyes that nothing i said or did was going to stop my son from using. Even to the point my son told me point blank i was powerless to stop him. And I fought the good fight until I was just plain worn out. The A is powerless over there drug or drink of choice. It is nice to believe that if they just made the choice to stop using it will all be better. But the drinking and drugging is only one part of this disease, to truly arrest the disease the person not only needs to be willing but they have to do the hard work to change their behavior. And they need to be ready, hit thier own bottom. Do you honestly think a rational person would voluntarily lose everything they hold dear in thier lives family, job, home, friends etc for a drink? Of course not you are trying to rationalize an irrational disease. These are sick people, sick of mind, body and soul. Being around sick people and trying to control their behavior in anyway makes us sick too. I don't know of an alanoner who didn't have control issues. You seemed to take offense of the phrase "control freak" but that is how i would descirbe myslef. Maybe I couldn't control my son's addiction but I could put on a show for others so they wouldn't see we were a sick family, I could try and control my sons usage by keeping him inside when he so badly wanted to go out and use ( and doing that is like watching a caged animal), i could try and control situations we may be put into by making sure wherever we went had no alcohol, i could contsantly talk. yell, beg, cry and try and manipulate my son into finding recovery, i could and did stay up with him for days at a time making sure he didn't die on my watch, i could try and make him eat .....I could go on and on with the things I did to try to control the chaos. But there is no controlling the uncontrolable.
You want to understand your sisters side of this disease....I would love to know what made my son turn to drugs. He had the all american childhood. 2 loving parents, highly inteligent, athlectic, artistic, musically talented, loves his family etc.... I have racked my brain for years reliving my sons childhood trying to find or pick the one thing that made him feel unworthy or when he lost his self esteem. I don't know, I may never know. I am not sure he knows. He so badly wants to live a normal life, fall in love, join the military, feel the love of his family yet he sabotages himself over and over again. He has been given chance after chance ( 6 yrs worth of chances) before I was ready to admit to the honest painful truth to myself that everything I was doing was just enabling his disease and making myself sicker by the moment. Until I stepped out of his way and stopped cushioning his fall he will never hit his bottom. I love my son uncondtionally without reservation but yes I have to step aside and see where he lands. What ever his choices will be he will have to either enjoy or suffer the concequesnes of his actions. And I say this knowing full well his bottom may be death. There is nothing I can do to stop the inevitable. And that breaks my heart each and everyday and my tears flow freely.
You said something about how will you "not be upset" over your sisters actions. This was also something I struggled with. In my mind I thought my sons addiction and actions were something he was doing" to us". Asking why is he doing this to us? what did we do to deserve this? One day I had just lost my mind and was yelling at my son, I jumped up in his face screaming at him and for the first time I looked in his eyes and saw pure, raw pain. A pain I have never encountered before. I walked away to be alone and try and process what I had just seen. And i suddenly understood my son wasn't doing anything"to us" he was in such incredible pain he was drowning it out with the drugs. That is when I stopped taking his addiction and actions personally. He is a kind, loving young man who wouldn't hurt anyone.....except himself. This is heartbreaking for a parent to deal with. Also at that point I realized that I couldn't expect him to act like anything than what he was, and that was an addict. I had to change my whole train of thought if i was going to get better myself I had to accept and love the addict in my life, but I didn't have to feed into the disease anymore. Addicts lie (that was a biggie for me) so when my son speaks I now must assume everything he is telling me is a lie unless my eyes or gut tell me different.
So if you accept your sister for what she is ( an alcoholic) then you can't expect her to act or to behave in any other way. She will lie, manipulate, steal, drive under the influence etc if you expect her to act any different than what she is yes you will be upset and disappointed. If you let you sisters actions hold you hostage to particular feelings of anger, resentment etc then yes you will be upset and disappointed.
And what good does that do you? you are angry and disappointed and your sister is oblivios and goes about her business. The only one you are hurting is youself.
For all these reasons is why this program teaches you to put yourself first, you need to get healthy in order to then be more open minded about how to handle your sisters alcoholism.
For me I had to get healthy physically and mentally before I could at least somewhat objectively look at my sons addiction.
As stated before addiction comes in many forms, it's not just booze or drugs it runs the gamet of anything that we can become obssesed with. For me I am probably as addicted to my son as he is to drugs. I am also a smoker so am addicted to that for sure and I can't tell you why. Started smoking cause it was the cool thing to do back in the day and now heaven help the person who would try and come between me and my cigarettes.
As far as You wanting to refer to HP as God. I personally don't have a problem with that. God is my HP too. But I need to remember that as we are a worldwide organization HP can be many differnet things to different people and cultures and if they refer to thier HP as someone other than God I have to be openmined enough to accept that my HP is not everyone's HP and give thier HP the same respect as I would want them to give mine. So personally I have no objection to what anyone calls thier HP.
Sorry to be so long winded here but I truly related to your first issue of powerlessness and that was the step I struggled with the most ( 10 months to be exact). But I now know that powerlessness doesn't mean helplessness. In the beginning those 2 words were interchangable for me and I could not accept being helpless. I am anything but helpless, the more I focus on me and the healthier I get, the more I work the steps and surrender to God the more i have a positive effect on everyone I come in contact with. The better role model I can be and of utmost importance to become the person God has always meant for me to be. I am a bit older than you ( maybe more than a bit lol ) and everyday I find new meaning in my life and work to become a better person.
I hope I didn't bore you to sleep or in anyway offend you as I stated in the beginning I am only speaking from my own experience and what worked for me.
I wish you blessings in your recovery and really hope you stick it out with us because although i was a slow learner if I can change and reach out to grab my miracle so can you.