The material presented
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I see that along with detachment, I have a huge issue with control and I am sure it could be classified as trying to "control," but yesterday before I went to my morning al-anon meeting, I just had to try and talk to my AH while he was sober because I'm sure he never examines what he's doing otherwise.
Amazingly, he rarely has a hangover. That's probably because it takes so little to get him drunk or maybe he's just built up a tolerance. Anyway, he was sitting in the kitchen having coffee and I said "Are you going to drink today?" He answered, "No." I said "Why not?" "Because you can't be bad every day, he answered." I asked him if we should get his brother to make a 12-step call to the house. He doesn't like his brother, so that was a big "NO!" Although I am sure he wouldn't want anyone to make that call at this point or maybe never.
I then very calmly asked him what he would think if someone told him about a man that was doing what he was doing, i.e., drinking every morning starting at 9 am and then laying in a recliner in a dark basement drifting in and out of consciousness all day, every day and that had become their life. Would he think that person was OK? "Just look at it objectively," I asked. He had no comment on what he would think, but said he would look at it objectively.
I also told him that aI was alarmed that after hearing my story, more than one person had suggested that he appeared to be in the beginning stages of the final phase of alcoholism which eventually ends in death I told him that obviously he was free to do as he chooses, but that since in the past he had mentioned that he didn't care if he did die; if he was choosing this as the way out, it was going to be a long and very painful exit since wet brain and liver chirossis aren't pretty. He didn't have a response, but how could this not make some kind of an impact?
I went on to my meeting and out to breakfast afterward with a wonderful new friend I met at the meeting a few weeks ago and when I returned - he wasn't drinking. I asked him if he had given any thought to what I had said and he said "I've got to tone it down drastically." He said, "I should only be having a few drinks at cocktail hour." (Cocktail hour is what I always tell him is when people who don't aren't problem drinkers may occasionally have a drink at the end of the day.) I didn't argue that he really needs no drinks at all.
I told him that I don't really want to believe that he is an alcoholic, especially after the torture we went through with his gambling addiction, but after thinking about it, I now realize that his drinking has been a big problem all along and that all evidence seems to prove that he is indeed an alcoholic. He said he wasn't an alcoholic. I said "then quit acting like one." Anyway, I am sure I know I am in a hopeless situation and I'm hoping, but to my knowledge, he didn't drink anything yesterday and there was no screaming or arguing. He still stayed down in the basement watching TV all day, but that's OK for now as long as he isn't drunk. I am sure he is also suffering from depression and I got him some Sam-E supplements & ginko bilboa (helping again) which definitely make a huge difference when he takes them and he usually does since he sees the difference himself. He refuses to go to a doctor and get real depression meds, so I'm sure the alcohol fills in for that, too.
So, we'll see what happens today. I am going to try and be encouraging without being controlling and use the One Day At A Time strategy. The snake may bite the little girl, but I'm prepared for that as an eventuality. I will not get into any arguments with him about anything. That much I can do and I am determined to do. If I can just do that then I will have succeeded in what I set out to do for MYSELF for today.
OK. FAILURE! Well, the snake did bite the little girl. Of course, I'm not really that surprised as I am sure none of you are either, but I thought he'd be able to hold off until at least this evening. Not so much -- He's drunk right now. Was sneaking rum and coke in the garage at 10 am and is now on his second drink, blaming me. I did not follow my oft-stated intention of not arguing with him AGAIN! When he's sober, he barely says a word to me. The minute he starts drinking, he will just sit in the kitchen trying to lure me in, those lips start flapping and blaming me for everything and it puts me into an hysterical auto-response to verbally reject everything he's saying and prove him wrong. When oh when will I get it through my thick head that I am not going to help, advise, teach, show, explain, control or in any other way influence anything he does or says and to do so serves only to upset MY peace and sanity? It makes so much sense so why is this concept so difficult for me to accept? I guess it's because I've spent so long doing it that I am in as much denial and as addicted to it as much as he is the boos. It's making me crazy, but all I guess all I can do is put this experience under my belt and try again. I am determined to lick this somehow. If I ever get this done, I will feel like I have really accomplished something. For God's sake, Jenny, DETACH ALREADY.
Thanks for sharing how things are going in your recovery, and how your AH is doing. I remember very well trying to fit in the morning conversation before my AH started drinking for the day. It sounds like your words may have had some impact on him, and I hope he continues to take the steps needed to get and stay sober.
My own experience was that my words were never enough. I also remember that more and more, our morning chats were the equivalent of me taking his inventory. I saw that he eventually became sadder and sadder, drank earlier and earlier and that I was only adding to his shame in the disease by analyzing his behavior. I learned in alanon, that there is nothing I can say to an alcoholic that they haven't already thought themselves, and worse. That my words, are unlikely to be the thing that propels him to recovery, particularly, as they got more and more critical out of my own desperation. Detachment with love and getting out of the way of their bottom is the best we can do. Unfortunately it took me years to figure that out. When I did eventually learn this lesson and make it stick in my behavior, I was blessed with giving and receiving the kind of love that I remembered from before alcoholism took my husband - even though he was still drinking. I was also blessed to see my husband make many attempts at sobriety of his own choice, because he wanted life.
Thank you, Rocky -- I hear you and can easily see that you once were where I am now. I have great difficulty seeing it as a disease. It seems so intentional on their part. I am so envious of your ability to conquer it and your description is so true. It gives me strength to try again. I must do it and I will. xxx Jenny
Don't beat yourself up! We have all had those moments where we thought our words had impact - it was the disease saying and doing what it needed to do to get us of it's back!
In my prior message, I posted that it took me years to get how to detach with love. The way I did it was to vigilently keep the focus on my own recovery. If I'm busy doing that, than I have far less time and appetite to work his as well
Sounds so much like my journey...I would lay awake at night and try to think How to reword what I wanted to tell the A so that he would hear me....No matter how I rephrased it, I just could not get my ideas across.
After working on my alanon program, I started to look at it as practice for me. Yes I really did not want to do the same things over and over again as I surely was not getting different results. BUT...It was my sickness that led me there. Until I was able to make the decision that the list I made for today would start with Today I will do...for me, that things started to change. Sure didn't happen overnight, but I had so much more practice living and doing things the way I had been for 20 some years. Just the awareness of what I was doing gave me the ability to take another step in the direction I wanted my to head. It took me a long time to switch my thought pattern from HE HE HE to ME ME ME!
hi (((Jenny))) I am new here, and don't feel qualified to advise, but wanted you to know I was thinking of you. Although I have been married to my AH for 32 years, neither of us knew he was an alcoholic until 2 years ago, after about 15 years of fighting, compromising, broken promises, MORE fighting, MORE promises, on and on. 2 years ago i made the decision to move out; I never had to carry through with it ashe started going to AA and stopped drinking the day I was due to move. For the past 2 years I have been reading everything I could get my hands on about alcoholism, spouses of alcoholics,etc,etc. It has helped.Before he started AA, I also saw a counselor for a while- it was a marriage counselor , but after her first meeting with my husband, she told me, "He is an alcoholic, he is deeply in denial, and, though your marriage may have other problems as well, you can't begin to work on those things until he admits that he has a drinking problem and takes steps to control it". I told her early on that I knew that I was powerless to control any aspect of his drinking. I really believed that. But in the course of our conversations, she would stop me every few minutes and say, "Ok, you say you know you can't control his drinking, but what you just said shows you are still trying to." I worked hard on the 12 steps; the first 3 sounded so easy until I really tried to put them into practice. I soon realized that I DID (and still do) feel that I had some control, or at least influence, over his drinking. And giving my life and will over to God has proved to be extremely difficult for a person who is as independent and bull-headed as me. I have found, though, that on those occasions when I HAVE given my HP total control (usually when I am at the very bottom myself), the most amazing things have happened- not necessarily for my AH, but for ME. Please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. Keep coming back, keep us up-dated on what you are going through. You have an army of friends watching your back here!
love from Denise
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"The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time."
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"The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time."
I grimaced as I read your post; grimaced because I was exactly where you are for several years. I knew that it was a foolish waste of time to attempt to argue or reason with a drunk, but his actions and words sucked me into the madness. I would get so angry, resentful, and frustrated that I HAD to respond. I had to call him a "f'ing drunken slob" on more than one occasion. Strange behavior for me, as I usually do not incorporate that vile word into my vocabulary. Like you, I knew better than to attempt to engage him into a discussion while he was drunk, but I did it anyway. I realize, of course, that "f'ing drunken slob" is no lead-in for a discussion. LOLOL
I still have my issues with him. He is sober for months on end, and then, out of nowhere, comes a 3 or 4 day binge during which he becomes the Mr. Hyde side of his dual personality. Cursing me and everyone and everything else. I have finally learned to leave him to his own misery. After a few days, the gentle Dr. Jekyll reemerges, and he behaves as if nothing happened. I am not saying this is good; it's just the way it is. Of course he is a liar. If he insists he remembers nothing of his drunken "vacation" then he does not have to discuss an of it with me. "Oh, you're being foolish. I was drunk" becomes the answer for everything. The day will dawn when I have had enough and I will dismiss him from my life entirely. I certainly do not need him for any financial support, and that is a good place in which to be.
I am one of those who does not accept the notion that alcoholism is a disease. But, because I do not accept the disease premise, the terrible toll it takes on the alcoholic and those close to him/her are the same.
Is there a point to all I have written you? Probably only that I wish you well. You are in my positive thoughts, and I send you my energy every day. Take care Jenny. You'll make it.
Diva
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-- Edited by Diva on Sunday 11th of July 2010 10:58:55 AM
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Thank you, Denise, your insight is very helpful to me. I feel so much better when I read about others that have gone through the same thing I am and have been able to move past it to serenity. How I envy that and when I also arrive, and I will, I hope that I will be as welcoming, helpful and loving to others as you and all the others have been to me. At least now I know there is some hope for ME. It means so much to know that you are there. Love, Jenny
I can only tell you from my experience even when you talk to your A in a "sober" state they are still thinking like an A. They will say anything they need to to keep you in the game but until they embrace true recovery they will always think like an A. Because recovery involves behavior change not just the abstinence of the alchohol. My son is an A I cant tell you how many conversations we have had about his addiction when he is sober and it has never made one single impact. I had to come into the reality that I am speaking with a disease not the beautiiful child that I raised. I have come to expect that until he embraces recovery I can only expect him to act like an addict even when he is sober. If I expect anything different I only set myself up for dissapointment.
Oh, Diva - how I wish I could give you a hug. That soul-crushing feeling of realizing he's drinking again after a period of abstinence is heartbreaking. I know that from living with my A father. "Get down here, girls. You're father's been drinking," my mother would scream and promptly put the two of us little girls in between the two of them in their violent, screaming battles. And she went to al-anon meetings every week! And you kinew that for a very long time life was not going to be much fun until he guit drinking again and no one knew how long that might take. If I didn't need my A financially right now, I would call the trash truck to come pick him and his Hefty bag luggage up this afternoon. Thanks for your good wishes and prayers and I will be thinking of you and praying for you as well. Love, Jenny.
I am afraid you are right about that one Xeno. I never thought about it that way, but it does make sense. After all, they are just inbetween drinks even when they are sober and they are such BS'ers, they wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them in the face which it does every day. I'm going to keep that in mind. Thanks so much for your reply. I wish you and your son the best of luck with his progress toward recovery. Hugs, Jenny
Reading your post, reminded me of all that I used to do. I, too, would try to discuss with my then husband. I was relentless for a long time. At the time, I just knew that I could reach him. I just had to find the right words. How wrong I was!
I finally realized that as long as he was in denial, and consequently not seeking recovery, discussions were futile. I think if he got a hand-written message from his HP, he'd still make excuses until he was ready for a change.
First the realization came and then the acceptance. They both evolved in stages. I'm still working on the acceptance, but to a lesser degree. Even though he has lived elsewhere for the past 9 months and we were recently divorced, I work through my urges to just give him a call to see how he is doing. I know myself. I'm still hoping that I can say something to trigger his desire for recovery. When I get the urges now, I become very still and breathe slowly in and out. I focus on my breath until the urge subsides. Then I go about my business and a clarifying thought comes to mind, bringing me peace, reminding my that I'm still trying to control and that I cannot. I am pleasantly discovering that I have less urges as I go along and working through them by just breathing (and not thinking) gets easier, too.
I hope you do not engage in envy of those who are further along on the recovery path (you had mentioned envy in one of your responses to this thread); I hope you look to them for inspiration. I did and still do. It's empowering and works!
You're moving alone nicely. Keep going in the direction that you are in. As the youngsters say: It gets WAY better. Promise.
-- Edited by GailMichelle on Sunday 11th of July 2010 07:00:57 PM
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You have to go through the darkness to truly know the light. Lama Surya Das
Resentment is like taking poison & waiting for the other person to die. Malachy McCourt
You have recieved such great ESH here. Reading your post took me back. I ran the long road of trying to control or talk cure it ... from the angry talk, empty threats, to the sober and drunk home therapy sessions, forced professional sessions, the I am going to pretend I have detached conversations ... to my personal favorite. The positive and negative list of drinking conversation Looking back I have no idea what I was thinking, I knew then and still know my xah is intelligent enough to have that or a very similar list in his own head. I just wanted something to work for him. In some aspects I can say that each way came from a place of love and lack of information. But as life spun more and more out of control there was PLENTY that came from desperation and at times just the need to be right about something to fight against feeling worthless (in reality powerless), I think.
Keep taking care of you, keep coming back. You are worth it. You're in my thoughts and prayers.
As I live around alcoholics I am aware of the hypervigilance. Eventually I got to the place of knowing that I was spending more attention on them than I was on me. Somehow in their disease they crave that.
The more I set limits the better it is for me. Do you embrace the three C's, we didn't cause it, we can't control it and we can't cure it.
This disease is cunning baffling and powerful. At the same time there are many people in AA who have come back when they were at a very late stage. They go on to lead productive lives. There is always hope. What gets someone to AA is a lot of things. I know for many people it is some kind of a bottom.
I don't know if you have the book Getting them Sober but I can't recommend it highly enough for giving options. There are always options for how to take better care of ourselves no matter what the A is doing.
