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Hi, all. I am not quite new in online AA groups, I joined first many years ago, but since the U.S.A. can be so different to where I used to live, I somehow didn't feel comfortable. Anyway, I am an alcoholic, free from Baccus for 8 years now (before, in 1991 I had 3-4 years sober). I have been living with an alcoholic man, 7 years younger than I am, since my divorce after 24 years of bad marriage, both alcoholics. We were supposed to stop drinking at the same time, I went to Hazelden for rehabilitation and he (had already been twice through the system of rehabilitation) decided to stop while I was away with the help of the family doctor. We used to live in a small town (Northern Europe) to where I moved after my divorce.
I am realizing now that he has never stopped drinking all those 8 years, but is so cunning in hiding it and lying through his teeth about it and everything else and then when I have finally (twice) thrown him out (we moved to Spain) he is all apologies and even went to rehabilitation once again. And I always take him back.
My daughter and her 2 children are staying with me now, and he has always been a very good (step)grandfather to them, so we completely trusted him when we went out to dinner and he was supposed to watch them at home (a good neighbourhood). They are 6 and 12 and not used to being alone, even in their own country. Instead he bought them sweets, told them to walk home (15 min.) and went to the pub. He has been on Antibus tablets since the last time I had thrown him out and this time I really believed him, he was in a really bad state when he asked to come back and volunteered Antibus and told me that he did not want ever to be like this again (for the umpteenth time). My daughter and I came home and saw the children trembling from fear in the sofa, having tried every telephone number in this strange country.
The day after, I found out that he had almost emptied a bank account that for reasons too complicated to go into here, I had to deposit some 40.000 euros, an account which was supposed to be tied up for three years, but it is only two years now and somehow he got the bank manager (told me that that was the advice of the bank manager) to invalidate (??? sorry, I am not English) the account, so he used the money to pay up all his depts since he was drinking, (this was in our country), child support from old times etc. etc. I had already years ago paid up several loans for him.
The thing is, he is very well liked here on the Spanish island, where we have now been living 5 years. I also like him, he is a hard worker in the garden and in the house, he is very generous (with my money) and loving but closed about his intimate thoughts (if there are any), a car mechanic and a mason by profession but hasn't worked (disabled ...!) since he has had several heart attacks, one serious a few years ago. I never thought I loved him, but he is a very easy person to live with, even when drinking, non violent and very helpful.
Now with the economic situation, I have to sell the small house and big garden that I bought with a high mortgage (sensible then) and everything needs mending and painting etc. etc. I have a small garden house in where he has been sleeping, as I had not completely "taken him back". We live about half an hours' drive from the main tourist area where he loves to go and chat (and drink, I gradually found out) and drive home. He has a million times managed to convince me that he had not been drinking, it was only the smell in my nose. Now I don't listen to this anymore. But I also don't want to throw him out although he could manage, as others do, on his small pension, as I do have use for him and now he owes me BIG TIME!!!
I saw these symptoms of a DSM psychopath on the web, and everything fits him except about the promiscuous sexual behavior, so he is probably both, an alcoholic and has this personality disorder.
glibness/superficial charm
grandiose sense of self worth
need for stimulation/prone to boredom
pathological lying
conning/manipulative
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow emotional response
callous/lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
promiscuous sexual behavior
early behavioral problems
lack of realistic long term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
many short term relationships
juvenile delinquence
criminal versatility
revocation of conditional release
I am very sorry about the length of this letter, but I was wandering if anyone else knows has this problem or knows about it and how best to deal with it. I am definitely not going to live with him any longer than I have to, but I feel cruel throwing him out and also, he knows that I need him for work here....
It has been hell this last 2 weeks, having to keep all this inside as I don't want my daughter's family involved in a big argument between him and me, although my daughter has had a "conversation" with him about this.
Sorry about the layout, I can't fix it! And thanks for reading (if you have!)
Sorry we dont diagnose , we are not professionals here, just the spouses and family members of alcoholics, doing our programs and trying to live as serenely and to creatively manage our lives after living or still living with an alcoholic.
We do know what this disease can do to people trying to live with the alcoholic and it sounds like he is going about the business of doing what A's do. That list you wrote sure describes an active drinker.
What we can suggest is to attend a face to face Alanon meeting or to keep coming back to our board as we have many people with the experience who can encourage your life. This program is about you. You need to focus on yourself and not the activities of the A. You say you dont want to throw him out, but you will need the support and wisdom of Alanon to be able to do that. Keep coming back and share your experiences with us.
Thank you Bettina. I know that you are not professionals. I don't even know why I wrote all this :) But alas, there are no alanon meetings on the island where I live. I have attended the English speaking AA meetings on and off, religiously at first, but didn't feel that they were helping as in AA you are supposed to talk about yourself, not of your mate, and my problems were mostly about him, thank God I have not had any longing to go where I once was! But I will keep on reading what is on here for support.
I have several books that list the common characteristics of alcoholics and they are almost identical to the list you posted. In the end,though, it really doesn't matter what you call it. He is behaving in a way that is making your life, and that of your family, unmanagable. I think you will have to come to terms with the fact that there is really nothing you can do to change him, but there is a LOT you can do to change you, and to make your life better, whether you stay with him or not. Peace of mind and happiness IS possible for you, but there are no magic answers. Each of us is unique and each of our situations are different. You are in a good place here. Keep coming back here. The support and strength I have found here is just unbelievable. Know that you are loved, that others truly care about what you are facing, and that all of us here will be thinking of you and keeping you in our prayers. I will be sending positive thoughts your way!
"The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time"
Love from NGB
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"The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time."
But some of us have worked in the field of alcoholism and substance abuse as professionals and also hold membership in the Al-Anon Family Groups and AA.
The AMA definition of alcoholism says in part that Alcohol is a disease of the mind, body, spirit and emotions. That pretty well covers all of the areas of your investigation into the question of "what is he??" Alcohol makes people crazy..those who drink it and those who drink the drinker. I'm experience on both sides of that fence and another part of the AMA discription is that alcoholism results in insanity and death. He might be closer to the death part than you are however it sounds like both of you are right at the insanity part. The DSM is a reference book and the mental land emotional condition description can and often will overlap the symptoms of alcoholism. In short compulsive drinking behavior makes us crazy...it touches everything and one it comes in contact with. When I worked in the field of choice we used the DSM as a dual diagnosis tool so that we could counsel the drunk for which there wasn't much insurance coverage. -end-
I've never met an alcoholic...recovering or not who liked the description "plain". The ego is too large and the false pride too deep. Your use of "plain" makes me laugh because I know hundreds of recovering drunks that would have a reaction...but it fits. Your alcoholic needs you in order for his condition to survive. He has needed you for a long long time so that it could come to where you both are now. Alcoholism needs enablers for it to survive. Without enablers the pain of drinking and not being able to afford it (because it takes more and more every time) is excruciating and we either seek help or go crazier and die. Alcoholism doesn't care if the enabler is man, woman, rich, poor, young, old, educated and experienced in recovery. It doesn't matter and so like me you are just an enabler and to it the most profound thing that you are doing is stopping your enabling which includes every justification you have found and held on to to not stop enabling. Take him to the professionals who know how and what to do and step out (out...not back) if he is to have a reasonable opportunity to stand in one place without being held up and saying "please help me".
You've been doing your research Kerling...you've been reaching out for underestanding and you have come here where there are many others with such awesome understanding, experiences, strength and hope. This is the part for you. You've arrested your own drinking...that in inself is a miracle and now there is a chance for the miracle to continue. This is the MIP Al-Anon board and I am glad you are here as another recovering alcoholic attempting recovery from the other aspect of the disease. I am also a "double" (both sides of the disease) and I am in support. (((((hugs)))))
Thank you all for replying. I have been in AA since 1991 so I have read and been guided a lot, even though I have not always taken the AA or 12 step way out. This second time (8 years now) I feel a lot different than the first. I read a lot, all kinds of books, but AA literature is not my favourite, although I have of course read the Big Book several times in therapy and in meetings as well as the 12 steps and 24 hour and all that. Now I use the Internet for almost all information I get and don't know much about, so that is why I looked up this symptom that my daughter told me that seemed to be typical of my partner.
I am very grateful for those who can be bothered to read and reply to this and I hope I can do the same. I have never had a sponsor, am a rather shy person (not in writing) and don't have many friends who are alcoholics, actually, I only have one (who is falling off and on) here in this country and no real friends where I used to live, except "normal" drinkers.
Again, thanks, I don't know what to do yet, and it is very frustrating knowing that it does no good talking to my partner, it is forgotten the day after, in spite of all kinds of promises.
P.S. ... and I would have smiled too, had I read somewhere about "a plain alcoholic", don't know what I was thinking. A normal person, a plain alcoholic, or even an average anything.... :)
Al coholism is a 3 fold disease Mental , Physical and Spiitual Disease , has many nasty side effects including the ones u listed here , alcoholic or not really dosent matter ,what matters is how his behavior affects your life that Al-Anon can help u with , him not so much . Al-Anon is about you for you has nothing to do with him once u start working this program . No meetings where you are ? we have 2 meetings here every day 9 am an pm eastern time and the chat room is open 24=7 so there is always someone to talk too . find someone who can offer solutions not someone who only wants to vent and complain about * them * you can purchase our literature on line ,read daily do what it suggests to the best of your ability andyor life will get better . I agree with you about AA meetings , they do nothing for ME as they are still about him and frankly I was tired of thinking about him . I needed to put my needs first for a change let him find his own way. hang in there it will get better .. Louise
-- Edited by abbyal on Friday 18th of June 2010 05:24:50 PM
-- Edited by abbyal on Saturday 19th of June 2010 01:18:38 AM
Sorry, but I mention in the beginning of my post that I am an alcoholic myself. First rehabilitation in 1991 then again 2002 after a slow but sure downhill.... so I know a lot from myself, e.g. I know where to search for hidden bottles in unlikely places :=) ... but he knows that now and carries them with him or goes to bars. Not drunk, but obviously having had a drink which is bad for me.
And then I catch myself saying something like "But on the whole, he is a very nice person, so good to me and helpful and willing to do anything I ask him ... etc." But he has had 15 years of slowly making me crazy and before that, another alcoholic (more violent) was married to me for 25 years. So I am not a "newbie" nor a baby anymore, but still learning!
Alanon is not the same as AA, two different programs.
Alanon s philosophy is to detach lovingly from the alcoholic and to let go of the alcoholic and leave them to their HP, as we find our own path to our HP. Us Alanons are not suppose to search for hidden bottles.
We have our own recovery to search out and one that includes managing our lives in a more productive way. So since you dont have meetings where you live. Please come back and share with us.
It doesn't matter what he is or isn't. It really only matters what YOU want. How do YOU want to live YOUR life? He could be a flying purple people eater...really doesn't matter. If you love him and want to be with him despite his being purple, then go ahead. That's your choice. Me? I couldn't love a purple guy who eats people no matter that he holds down a job or gives me money or knows how to fly. I just couldn't find peace living in that enviroment of purpleness. My choice.
I have to keep MY side of the street clean.
Now, I know a woman who lives with a "sober" A. She doesn't love him but feels obligated to him AND he helps her with bills and such. They have lived together for years now. He has unintentionally ruined her life. And she abuses him because of it. Which he takes because he feels he deserves the abuse. It's a dirty cycle and they are pretty close to miserable.
What could she do differently? Take the focus off of HIM and put it on HERSELF and figure out what SHE needs to be happy, joyous and free....keep HER side of the street clean rather than trying to force him to sweep his side.
Oh yeah, he has Asbergers Syndrome, a hoarding disorder, a personality disorder along with the alcoholism. But you see, it doesn't really matter what is wrong with him.
Idk what a DSM psychopath is but all those things listed fit an alcoholic/addict. You cannot cure or change or fix him, being in AA you know that when you got around to making the decision for yourself to get clean, it was (most likely) on your own terms. You cant make the thoughts have the connections for them, it has to come to them, from them. When we talk to them, about "their" problem, they are immediately in a fight with us. They will do anything to protect their disease, which is usually lying and denial. If you say, here it is right in your hand, they will say - 'its not mine'.
You have to learn the ways in which you enalbe and feed into the disease. Perhaps you have codependent issues you havent realized yet. I know for me, when I focus on someone else ~ I lose myself. I can very easily be obsessing on your issues, feeling, moods, whims and attitudes bc then I can ignore myself - this is my disease. So, I have to consciously and actively focus on me, what I can do for me to improve my life today/right now and surrdenering to HP and staying in this moment (not projecting into the future). The ways in which I love and respect myself are through daily self care and often it is following through on my own boundaires and not comprosing myself anymore.
I began weeding out anything that was not "healthy" for me.
I had to sit and discover my own true needs versus my wants, desires and fantasies because even some of those were not healthy for me. I did also grieve the losses of them and I continue to do a lot of forgiveness work on myself and others. Forgiving me for being human or hurt by others in the first place, has freed me a lot.
Alanon is alll about you. I think our online group is pretty healthy, check out our daily meetings online in the chat room (see link on main board page in upper left corner). You can share how you feel about what is going on in your life and what is giving you a challenge or issues.
Learn to detach with love from his behavior and accept him where he is. Focus on what you can change and how you can improve your life. Try not to defend him as that only sucks you in to the disease. Take care of YOU & welcome. BTW ur English is very good!
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I really did not expect but one or two replies, and I am very grateful. Of course I know that it doesn't matter what he is, but sometimes when you are ill, it helps to know what it is called, even though you are just told you have a virus, you want a more specific reply. Any psychological illness (like alcoholism) can have several different symptoms. I just have to accept that there is nothing that I can do, like you are telling me, but to think about myself and change the situation into something that I might be satisfied with.
The funny thing is that last winter, I had mail from a boyfriend (for 2 years at the time) from whom I hadn't heard nor seen in 43 years. He found me on Facebook and we started chatting. His wife had cancer and he felt good writing about it and I was in much the same situation as I am now with my partner. Sniffing his breath when he came home (driving, as we live in the countryside) and often shouting at him as a consequence while he just sat there and pretended to be innocent. Anyway, the old boyfriend's wife died and we have since met in my country and I stayed with him for 2 weeks. My partner knew about it, but didn't object much, calling every day. Then the oldie came to visit me in one of the periods that I had thrown my partner out and he was sharing a bungalow with friends, drinking more than ever. I found out that it is very unlikely that I could live with this old boyfriend (he is my age!) his wife of 40 years had obviously treated him like a king and he does not know how to use any home appliances and he is on heavy medication for depression and always tired. Trustworthy, hardly ever takes a drink, has his own apartment and car etc. (don't know much about his financial situation), in fact the perfect way out of this for me.
But typically, I have a hard time throwing my partner out once again and don't know how to get my money back unless he works for me and repairs the house that I want to sell. Or have to sell. I am so co-dependent and have been all these years, this man is a genius in fooling people, not only me. Everyone likes him, he is very honest (!) and extremely helpful. A good sport. People have come to me to ask me what the fuzz is all about, they had watched him drink a beer and then stop! They don't understand that one beer leads to another and another etc. like it did for me at the time. I am absolutely certain (I know, one day at a time) that I don't want to go that way again. But when he says he doesn't he is very convincing, even though I can smell alcohol on his breath. He is making me believe that I am crazy, smelling alcohol everywhere.
AA and Alanon are different, I know. My daughter went to Alanon and I have actually been to one or two meetings in my country, and have had some very painful things said to me, but true.
For me, it seems that the problem is to survive alone in this house with the dog (who loves his "daddy") and the big garden and things that need doing and I really can't afford to pay for. So when my family has gone back I have to have a plan and stick to it. My "old boyfriend" is expecting me to come and stay with him when I come home (for a vacation and seeing doctors etc) but he is, in my opinion, just as sick as my partner. He has all the things that I want, warmth, love and reliability and trust, but .... I don't know.
So I have shared even more with you now, more than I have ever shared with anyone I know except a foreign friend in a similar situation. I feel good most of the time or have done until now lately and am feeling more and more like an idiot, letting this happen to me. I don't know if I love him, but I think I could if I did not hate him so much! But I have to stop living with him, I can't go on thinking about all the time whether he is drinking or not when he is not at home. Ruins me. I am in my sixties, my friends over here are mostly younger, but I have good friends here, more than I had "at home".
P.S. ... for the young persons, last winter while writing to the boyfriend and then when we were together later for a while, I felt like I was 20, so it is never too late to leave someone, you can love again and be excited. Whether it lasts is another story.
Wishing you all a nice week-end, I am going up to the mountains to visit friends with my family, there will be lots of drinking, but I am driving and looking after the grandchildren, still enjoying myself, at least until things seem to be getting out of hand or boring, then I can go whenever I want! Free to drive. Sit on the beach, watch the sunset, eat of the barbecue and listen and tell jokes. Even if my partner decides to come with me. I will leave my worries in the safety box at home.
I have learned so much from reading these boards. I hope they will be of help to you too. Just reading other people's situations and then people's replies has been so enlightening.
I am so sorry you've going through all of this. I know so well what it's like to think "I can't let him go until he pays back what he owes ... until he does this and does that ..." Then we base our recovery on the decisions of a person who's sick in the head. "I can't get better until he starts to be responsible." Unfortunately most of us would be waiting forever in that situation. But what would you do if he were struck by lightning or ran off with a floozie to Brazil? It would be hard but you'd find ways to run your life and gain skills you need and manage things. I think waiting for an alcoholic to make good on what they owe, financially or emotionally, is like waiting for one of those Ponzi schemes to pay out: "I've lost a million dollars ... but if I put in another $10,000 I bet I'll get my money back! No? Okay, I'll put in $15,000. Now I really have to get my money back! It's owed to me! I can't manage without that money! I'll just put in another $20,000 to make sure I get all that money back..." Sadly, been there done that.
I also hear that you're thinking that maybe this old boyfriend (depressed and expecting a woman to serve him) might be a good "transitional object," as they call them for kids and people like me. But then what if he's not good for your emotional health, do you have to wait for someone else before you can leave? Oh, I know that feeling so well too.
What I've found from these experiences is that we're a lot stronger than we think we are. When I left my last addicted ex, I thought I would be in fiery pain for the rest of my life. I had a few weeks of living hell. And ... it's less than a year later ... sometimes I think about him and it hurts, but weeks go by when he never enters my mind. If I had known I was so strong, I would have left years before.
I don't mean to tell you what you should be doing. Just to say that whatever your decision, I think with your own inner strength and the tools of Al-Anon -- and your HP, whatever that looks like to you -- you have more power than you know.
I was scouring the DSM too when AH was drinking - we hadn't been married long, I found that he was a near-textbook fit for several diagnoses, including psychopath, and I was thinking I'd made the biggest mistake of my life. Then there was a DUI, then I started finding the hidden bottles, and then I opened my eyes to the other signs (which, coming from a family with its share of alcoholics, I'm thinking I must have been in denial about because they sure were there all along).
I never went to a face-to-face al-anon meeting, but coming here in those days and reading about other peoples' experiences and how they coped helped me to realize that his drinking wasn't anything I could control. I ultimately found the strengh to tell him that if he wanted to continue down that path he would do it without me, and I meant it and he knew it. He started going to AA meetings and has been sober since, 1 year 11 months 19 days and while he is still a little impulsive and not always super responsible, I don't worry about personality disorders anymore.
After my first divorce (which I hope will be my last ) I resolved not to get involved in another relationship for at least a full year - that year gave me the confidence that I could take care of myself and if I didn't have that, I might not have had the courage to take a stand, I knew that if I ended up alone it wouldn't be the end of the world.
-- Edited by shebear on Saturday 19th of June 2010 01:44:35 PM
I needed to put my needs first for a change let him find his own way. hang in there it will get better .. Louise 
, more than I have ever shared with anyone I know except a foreign friend in a similar situation. I feel good most of the time or have done until now lately and am feeling more and more like an idiot, letting this happen to me. I don't know if I love him, but I think I could if I did not hate him so much! But I have to stop living with him, I can't go on thinking about all the time whether he is drinking or not when he is not at home. Ruins me. I am in my sixties, my friends over here are mostly younger, but I have good friends here, more than I had "at home".