"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Crisis again

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Drunk or sober there is always a crisis with an alcoholic the trick is to not get involved in them ... oops too late .

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Yes. I know it's too late. But I still feel I and my ex girlfriend has something special. We have had many difficulties in our relationship, but I see things differently now. It seems like such a waste to let it all go. There is so much good left.

I feel a very strong urge to call her tomorrow and say how I still fell for her and that I haven't given up hope, but at the same time I can see the danger of being let down and very disappointed. If there is something left to save I will do it. If she don't wish to try again, there is nothing I can do about it. And in that case I can't see that I have anything to loose. If I could be in a relationship with her now. I would keep working the program like never before and still try to focus on me. I have seen how important that is. And that goes for if I am with her or not. I believe I can be with her and still mind my own business. I just need one last chance.

I fear it's too late though. No matter how all this turns out I know I will need Al-Anon more than before. If she takes me back, I will need to work it harder. If she doesn't I will definitely need to work it harder.

I think I will have to stay in Al-Anon for a lifetime.

Thanks for being here.

Are

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Are)))

You helped your friend because she was in need. I was very impressed that she noticed the change in you and said she thought you were more assertive!!!

That is good That is a positive character trait. It describes someone who knows what he needs and can verbalize it!!

You ask what is there to loose My answer to that is: YOU HAVE YOURSELF TO LOOSE. I always felt that I could risk myself as it was worth it to get what I wanted. I found that I could not risk loosing myself to this disease.

I could loose money houses etc but I could not afford to loose me.

Please continue to care for yourself I am glad you are back and have computer access

-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 2nd of June 2010 09:34:46 PM

-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 2nd of June 2010 10:55:51 PM

Cosmos · Veteran Member

I'm glad to hear I was given a compliment, lol.

I don't know If I am going to phone her tomorrow or not. I am going to go to sleep now and try to clear my head before tomorrow. Then I'll read some literature in the morning before I do something.

I have to be careful. I know.

Are

lyndebi · ~*Service Worker*~

I have a feeling you have always been a giving person. That is a good trait.

For me being assertive is being able to say no, with out being aggressive about it. It standing up for yourself and or someone else and being able to do it with out yelling or being aggressive.

There are classes a person can take in Assertiveness training.

This gal is sick. She did not do anything that any other A does not do. She manipulated to get what she wanted. Then threw a carrot "maybe we can be friends." Sweet as pie, not.
Believe me you are not the first. We all go thru this until we have learned that the disease is out for them, they will do anything, say anything to get what they want.

Did you see the red flag? You texted her and she did not bother to text you back. She got what she wanted for now.

When you are trying to say what made her do what she does, that is for people who are not addicts. We do not think the same as they do. We don't do things with a motive. Most everything they do is.

Another flag, she is plannig to lie to her sponsor. She is a liar. What makes you beleve she won't lie to you? She is NOT in recover if she is lieing to her sponsor of all people.

She knows it is wrong for anyone to bale her out. A sponsor does not tell one what to do. NO way. They show situations allowing their sponsee to decide for themselves.

We come here to share, support each other and not tip toe around. It is up to each one of us to take what we want. You already knew it did not feel right to do this.

These addicts live for drama, it is another high.

They hang on just in case they need us for something. true.re: the carrot.

You will get all this. It is what makes all of us come here. We get knowledge, truths, skills, tools and experiences here.

I am soooo glad you have what you do to keep coming back and listening. It is not easy!I would say most do not.

If I were you, I would ask myself what makes me believe I can be treated like this, and still want someone like this.

It is all about YOU not her. Addiction is insanity. We are blessed that some get in to recovery and do great, ups and downs, but they stay in recovery.

IF we take away their consequences for their behavior, they learn nothing. But helping we make them sicker.

did you read Getting Them Sober?

There are consequences for behavior for reasons, so we will learn. She may have been evicted, had no place to go, and realized even stronger she has to get serious and help herself.

Hope this helps. KEEP coming back. We already love you. debilyn

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi

Phone call is made.

First I have to say a few things to clear things up. I appreciate all your Replies, but in some cases I can see that you don't think as highly off my ex-girlfriend as I do myself.

She didn't text me back yesterday, but I did not ask any questions either. She had a rock bottom and I'm glad I was able to help her yesterday. I still care about her well being. She knows I cannot help her with money again and I have faith that she won't do it again. The carrot "maybe we can be friends" is what she have wanted all along. I just saw hope in the fact that she said she would be jealous seeing me with another girl.

I do agree that lying to her sponsor is wrong, but don't think she would lie to me. She never have as far as I am aware of. She is rather brutally honest. Like last year when she ended up sleeping with another man, she called me the morning after from his bed to tell me. She cheated on me, but did not go behind my back.

I am really glad I made the phone call. I was able to express my feelings for her and my faith that we could make things better if we tried again in a good way.

She didn't want to get back with me. And from that conversation I think she never will. It was still a nice chat. I obviously think it's really sad that she don't want to try again, but she was honest and I know what she feels now. Not as I wanted, but I will accept it.

She still wanted us to be friends, but I know I cannot do that. And for the first time, she seemed like she understood that. I hate the fact that we have to let go of so much good because we aren't on the same page, but I cannot change that fact.

I realize now that there is no going back ever, and will do my best to let go. I can stop waiting, hoping and praying for her to turn to me again. This, I believe will give me more strength to focus on myself.

Behind the disease of alcoholism she is a fantastic girl. I have seen that, and I hope that if she ever get in a long-term relationship again, it will be with someone that can truly appreciate her.

I got to turn my head back onto my studies today. I know today will be hard, but I have faith that the program and my Higher Power will help me get back on track.

Thank you again for being here. Al-Anon make me believe in me smile

Are

DreamXL · Senior Member

Cosmos Hi and thank you for your post. I'm glad you are accepting her decision and ok with it. I do have one thing to add here. I was somewhat surprised when i read "she has never lied to me as far as I know"...part of the addiction is lying, protecting the addiction at all costs. It goes hand in hand with addiction. Its almost like saying...He/she is an a but doesnt drink...

It's nothing personal regarding her, its reality...I'm glad your here and thank you again. blessings and keep coming back :)

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi and thank you for replying

The one thing she has picked up in AA is honesty. And when it come to me I think she might have told truths that aren't real sometimes. What I mean is that it only happened when she was dishonest to herself. She can make herself believe in things that don't fit in the reality. But I stick to what I said (maybe in denail). She has never been hiding anything for me on purpose. Sometimes I wish she would, because the truth can hurt so much. It is like if she has no filter at all when she speak to me. This is also one of the main reasons I cannot see myself in a friendship with me. She would share stuff about guys she fancy, that I don't want to her. I cannot be her closest friend, like a girlfriend.

My ex-girlfriend has a history of ending up with guys that are no good for her. At the moment she have had a thing going on with a much older guy new in AA and have already been loosely involved with several men since she broke up with me. She said latest today that I was an exception. But she can't stay in a relationship with me because she is attracted to other guys all the time. I feel sorry for her. And I honestly think she does not realize what she is missing out on by not having faith in us.

I am really scared that she will end up getting more and more hurt by these "men". I don't understand her at all, but it is her decision, and hers alone. I have said what I had to say now and she chose to not get back to me. She said that she don't think she is made for long term relationships, but still want badly to have kids one day.

Her sponsor is a single mother. Even though I know her sponsor is doing everything to help her, it is like my ex-girlfriend only wants to be just like her sponsor. I think it's great that her sponsor is doing well as a single mother, but to aim for it? Once again. It's not up to me. It's out of my hands.

All I can do is to pray that I will get through loosing her and that she is going to turn out to be ok.

Glad to have this forum today. Without it I know my panic would grow and that my actions would cause more problems.

Are

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Are))

I am glad you made the call and have more clarity.

I just wanted to say that I did not think that I lied and thought I was very truthful until I discovered my denial system I lived in a fantasy world and did not like reality. Alanon gave me the tools to see the Reality About myself and others and respond in a positive manner.

. THe defination that made sense to me was that Denial means:
Don't Even No I am Lying. You are doing well.

Good luck with your exams.

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi and thank you

I am glad I called to. It hurts so much, but I guess its like ripping off a plaster. The sooner I realize that I have reached the point of no return, the sooner I can get better.

I just wish I could stop worrying about her so much. I worry that she might pick up, mess up her finances again or maybe most off all get into trouble because of the wrong type of men.

I don't know why it is that almost every girl I really care about seem to fall for arrogant bastards. But they see me as best friend material. One they can talk to about everything like a brother or a girlfriend.

When I am in a relationship I naturally care very much for the person I am with. My girlfriends is quickly accepted as a part of my family. I conciser myself to be a very caring and loving person, yet I am not boyfriend material.

When I am in a relationship, unlike many of my friends I automatically stop looking at other girls. It's like there is no other alternatives. And I know I am stuck with that for a long time after a breakup. I just can't fall in love for a long long time.

After a while I know that I will be fine alone. I have done this before. But I never connect with friends like I do with a girlfriend. I mean, I can be very honest and open, but when I loose friends I don't look back at all. I have had many good friends that have been nice to me. But never a lifelong friend. They come and go and I could not care less. It sounds harsh, but I never exclude friends from my life, it just happens.

There is so many things that reminds me of my ex girlfriend. Just the fact that I only came to UK just to be closer to her is haunting me every day. I still have another year her. She lives five minutes on a bike from me and I risk seeing her in town or in the shop. It feels inhumane that I'm going to have to live that close to her and never see her. We both want so much to spend time together but can't because we want it for different reasons.

Since I wrote my last post I have however decided what to do for my dissertation next year, something I have been putting off for a long time. That made me feel good about myself. So it shows that even the things I am dreading can make me feel better as long as it is all about me smile

.

I can see that I'm going to have a hard time from now on, but it does not have to be harder than necessary. As long as I have you guys, f2f meetings a Higher Power to lean on and keep doing the next right thing I know I can get through this. The world is still standing.

Thank you all so much for being here. f2f meetings is where I feel the warmth and care from others in similar situations, but this forum and the chartroom is what helps me on a daily basis.

Are

-- Edited by Cosmos on Thursday 3rd of June 2010 08:59:58 AM

-- Edited by canadianguy on Thursday 3rd of June 2010 09:59:03 AM

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Cosmos - a tangled web, for sure..... What are you doing for YOUR recovery?? Sounds like your ex-gf is trying to work his, as best she can, and hopefully she succeeds.... Al-Anon will help you get your focus back onto you, and who knows - maybe one day, when both of your respective recoveries are at a good place, the two of you will re-unite.....

One comment I noted, after reading you defending her actions/character.....

The one thing she has picked up in AA is honesty

She appears to have conveniently set aside this learning, with respect to dealing with her sponsor in a couple of areas.... Not judging her, but the facts are the facts.

Take care
Tom

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi

Thanks for reply.

It is true that she is doing well, but I know she is struggling. She have gone against her sponsors ways so many times that her sponsor is saying she can't handle it any longer if it doesn't get better. I understand that being a sponsor must be hard if you constantly see your sponsee failing at life, but I find it strange that she is threatening. My ex girlfriend is so scared of loosing her sponsor, which is also why she considered not letting her know that I helped her out with money. But I just got a text from my ex-girlfriend, thanking me for helping her out and also said she had made the decision of letting her sponsor know.

I didn't reply to that text. I don't see the point any longer. I deleted all the texts she ever sent me and her phone numbers. I don't know them by heart. This made me cry for the first time since the breakup. I was wondering when it would come.

It's nice of you to say that I me and my ex-girlfriend maybe one day will be stronger and get back with each other. I don't know the future. But there is still the fact that I only have one more year left in the UK. If we are both to recover completely separate, there won't be any time left for us to build a strong enough relationship, so that one of us would be able to leave their country. I don't dare to cling on to this hope any more. I think it will only lead to further disappointments.

What I am doing for myself now is to try to detach from my ex-girlfriend as best as I can. I know its not done in a day, but I try to think that today is the only day I have to deal with today. Days only come in the quantity of one. Thank God!

I have a f2f meeting to go to tonight and counselling tomorrow morning, which I am very grateful for. As I said I have also been able to focus on my studies today.

But there is not much I can do. I don't have any close friends here at uni, and there is limits to how fun I can have on my own. Everything is exams now. Two more to go, and then a field course in the mud looking for invertebrates. Not looking forward to it.

Well. I do keep fit though. Running 50 minutes every day and work out as well.

Thank you for being here.

Are

-- Edited by Cosmos on Thursday 3rd of June 2010 10:30:25 AM

DreamXL · Senior Member

(((cosmos))) hang in there friend....and good luck with your exams. I just caught up with the replies and find truth in them all. Not that im judging lol...but relating :) You have your entire life ahead of you and the more choices we make from a clear level headed mind the better off we are. A couple of thoughts come to mind..............If you wonder what your life will be like with a certain person look at what it is like now casue thats what it looks like........ and one I wish I would have paid more attention to is this........Every choice we make is the beginning of all that is yet to come............:) blessings and keep working it !!!

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi

I have made a decision. I have just sent her a text saying that I agree to be her friend. She hasn't replied yet and I would not be surprised if she say that she can't. But what we have is far too valuable to me to loose without a fight.

Oh dear, you must all be thinking: "here we go again", but if I believe I could be in a relationship with her now, because I have my new toolbox from Al-Anon, I should be able to deal with a friendship too. If I can manage to keep it within the day and stick to the program I can do this.

I have heard from other people in Al-Anon saying that this is actually possible. So if they can, so can I.

Forgive me if this leads to another crisis, but I will do my very best. Off to meeting soon.

Thanks for being here.

Are

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hello again.

I managed to get through to her in the end. She says we can go back to being friends in a month. That's when she has done the step work. That will give me some time to prepare.

Going to a meeting now. I think I need it.

Are

maresie · ~*Service Worker*~

I know full well what it is to jump right in and help. I helped the ex A with a lot of money, resources and most of all time and energy for years. At some times he was grateful but generaly after a while the enormous effort was unacknowleged, not reciprocal and heart breaking for me. Eventually I was absolutely drained, exhausted and toxic with resentment.
I'm not sure what the arrangements you have about paying the money back, are there any or is it a gift. I must say anything I ever gave the ex A he felt totally entitled to, he never made any attempt to pay back, set up terms, at all. As I felt so "worthless" I didn't mandate that either.

I've recently learned about a name for manipulation which is called "gaslighting". One of the key steps in it is that there is at some pont an emotional apocalypse which one party can not stand at all and that person caves in very quickly. First there is the rejection which is known to hurt the other party then the apocalypse. Then some of us come around to identifying with the A again and seeing things from their point of view rather than having the "big" picture.

The first step, rejection was very hard for me. I have abandonment issues. When I am triggered on abandonment I can become frantic and very upset. I could be very easily triggered on abandonment before. The second step the emotional apocalypse, the collapse, the demand, the chaos and the "crisis" were always really key for me. My family of origin lives, eats and breathes crisis. The only time I feel I belong to the family is when I am helping out in a crisis. Needless to say a crisis does not go on for ever and then I feel resentful, confused, lost and unsure of myself.

I've gone on at some length here because I think its so key to identify what's happening when in order to learn different responses. One tool we have in al anon is to not act, to put off acting if we are in doubt.

One other key tool for me is to be very busy. My time is taken up with my needs rather than sitting around waiting to be "needed" by someone I'm obsessed with. I do not have time to answer the phone when someone (who I am not sure about) is in crisis. Needless to say they have another person to go onto. Generally they have a list.

The ex A who I was with is still gaslighting. He did not die when I stopped speaking to him. He survived, albeit not in a great way but I felt absolutely totally responsible whenever he had problems. I was set up to be that way in my family of origin. I've now changed the way I am set up .

Maresie.

lyndebi · ~*Service Worker*~

Hey I wanted to make something clear. When I speak of the A of the person posting, I am speaking of the A side of that person.

It is not the A's fault they are an addict. It is a disease.

Our A's can be the nicest people in the world! Sadly this disease does not discriminate.

I believe your A has to be a nice person, or you would not love and care for her so much! The disease is what causes what you have shared.

My experience is so much like yours Are.My husband was a kid when we met. I instantly fell in love. It was many bumpy years of our growging up and back and forth being together.

So possibly like you, I knew him from before the disease was so bad. NO ONE understood what made me love him anymore. Like those feelings stop.

So please know I feel sad for you both! It is natural for us to grieve our loved ones, A or not!

Wanted to be clear! (C: hugs,debilyn

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi

Thanks for replies.

I have just been to a f2f meeting. I can't believe how much that can calm me down! It's amazing. None of my friends would be able to to that today.

I haven't set up any plan for her to pay back the money. She don't earn any, but get benefit for renting a place. Not very much, and in this current situation she can't pay back at all. It's not the first time I have helped her out with money. When she moved in her new flat, where I thought I was going to move into too, I paid for most of her furnitures, her deposit and first rent for the flat. She dumped me right after this.

Still I don't think of it that she used me although it can seem that way. She had no idea we were going to brake up, but moving to a place of her own(She had been living at home) changed her perspectives on many things.

So when she now again asked me for money, the usual would be for me to say yes. And I did. But this time I made it clear that I will not help her out if the same thing happens again. I am not free of guilt in this. I used to be more than happy helping her out, feeling like I could save her.

I did not feel so good this time. She knows I cannot help her out again, and If it happens I have to say no. But then she had the warning upfront.

If I would say no to her this time I honestly feel that it would be cruel of me. First allowing her to get into a bad habit, and then cut her off without a warning.

I can relate to what lyndebi say about knowing my ex-girlfriend when she used to be better. She was studying literature at the time and worked the AA program very hard. She had then been sober for five years, but after her relapse on drugs and a bad man last summer, she haven't been working it like she used to. I too have had countless people saying that I should get away from her. Strangely, not my mother. She seem to always be understanding towards my ex-girlfriend. I'm not sure why that is.

Am very tired now and need to go to bed. I only slept 4 hours last night, and my exams aren't going to wait for my emotions to be sorted.

Are

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi.

A friend in Al-Anon told me yesterday that I should go home and have a good nights sleep and that I would feel different the next day. She was so true. I feel a lot calmer today. all the stuff that happened the last two days belong to the past. This was two days that ended up hurting me very much. I don't want to hurt like that again.

Today I have a session with my counsellor and will try to keep doing the right things. One thing at the time. I want my fears list to be shorter this night, and my gratitude and "did well"- lists to be longer.

I will also try to pray more. I have seen it work for me before. And one thing I did not pay attention to the last two days was my higher power.

I have been in denial. My alcoholic ex-girlfriend manipulated me and I did what I could to manipulate her. We aimed for different goals and we both ended up getting more hurt.

Thank you for the previous replies. The good thing about this forum is that it's still there. I read your replies today and they strike me harder than they did yesterday.

Today, I will not let myself down.

Are

DreamXL · Senior Member

((Cosmos)))) part of our being affected or should i say infected with the effecs of alcholism is our denial. I know I can slip into "mystical" thinking that..."oh, maybe its not that bad, or oh he didnt really mean that, blah blah blah..maybe we could just be friends and see what happen on and on...we want to believe what our heart wishes were true in spite of mountains of evidence. Making excuses for inappropriate behavior, words and to the point that we start to believe them ourselves. This is where I had to work very hard at looking at the reality vs. the fantasy of the relationship. When your in a relationship that shatters your self esteem, doesnt make you feel good about who you are and tolerate clearly unhealthy behviors its certainly time to think about what the future looks like. Someone posted in here about if you want to know what the future looks like with an A look at the present casue that is what it will be. Recovery involves alot more than one not drinking.....Im glad your working so hard on your recovery and good luck with your exams. Its a long life :) and everyone deserves to be happy !!

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi and thank you for your reply DreamXL

I have just been to see my counsellor and bits and pieces of the world is starting to make sense. It's true that when I think of my ex-girlfriend I think of how she used to be when she was better. She is not that person. And she is not the person I wanted her to be.

When I visited her the other day, I missed her and I could still feel the love for her. However I also saw much evidence of the fact that she is not well at the moment. She is swearing constantly, obsessed about looking sexy and is having problems with money spending and trying to get attention from men. I honestly want to be in a relationship with her when she is like that.

That's actually a big discovery for me... I don't want to be in a relationship with her today. Not when I realize how she is instead of thinking of how she was or how I thought she was. I don't want to be friends with her either. At the moment I cannot see what good it would do me. I will probably get to know how she is in about four months time at least.

She has my Wii, and I have said she can have it until after the summer. This doesn't bother me. I have another Wii in Norway I can use over the summer.

I hope I am well enough to be able to see her for what she is at the moment I see her again.

I know I have said to her that I want us to be friends, and I can't change the fact that I said that. What I can do is to stay within the day and get better myself. If we have a connection or not when I am better is something I should not use my energy on figuring out.

I don't know how she is - I don't need to know.

I know how I am - I want to get better

She may or may not get better - its out of my hands

I may or may not get better - it's up to me

My ex-girlfriend might spend too much money again - I can't control that

My ex-girlfriend might ask me for more money - I have the power to say no

I don't know if I can be with her in the future - the future isn't here and doesn't matter today.

I know that I can't be with her today - I have been without her most of my days in my life I'll survive another

I am with myself today - I can have the company of my Higher Power

Me and my Higher Power are going to go and wash some clothes and tidy my room now.

Glad to be here and glad to feel that things can be manageable. smile

Are

-- Edited by Cosmos on Friday 4th of June 2010 08:08:55 AM

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Are))

Thank you for the update Yes after a nights sleep we are able to see things in a different light.

During these stressful days at the end of the school term please try to remember HALT Try not to get too Hungry , Angry, Lonely or Tired.

I too forget to bring HP with me when I am trying to follow my will. Good awareness. Pleae keep showing up for yourself you are so worth it.

RLC · ~*Service Worker*~

Are,

There was awareness and program in your list. Awareness was in your statement. Program in your solution. If you follow your own list your life will be manageable one day at a time, and one day at a time is much easier when you take HP along with you.

HUGS,
RLC

Ness · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Cosmos, I see awareness, willingness and courage......so things can only get better!! Thanks for being here and sharing your journey.

In support
Ness

Cosmos · Veteran Member

Hi and thank you for replies.

I am actually feeling a bit better today. I'm able to revise and I have made a phone-call to a friend in Al-Anon that really helped.

I constantly have to correct my head when it's starting to go off without my control. As long as I stop myself from negative thinking and replace it with the serenity prayer, followed by "forced" positive thinking I seem to manage time as it goes by.

It was a bit difficult earlier today when my flatmates, that are done with their exams, went off to the beach. I still have two to go. And then I have more work for a deadline and summer-school for a week crossing over to July. My summer will come soon enough though. I can't wait to get home to my own country.

Looking at future can sometimes be good if I look at the things I look forward too.

Thank god I found Al-Anon when I did. On my own I would not have been in a good place at all right now. I may not feel perfectly happy, but it could have been far worse. I'm grateful smile

Are

-- Edited by Cosmos on Saturday 5th of June 2010 09:43:47 AM

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"