The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Things have been going pretty well lately. Abf-sober has been making meetings, as have I. Working steps, trying to break old patterns and though there has been a bump or two along the way the last month or more, for the most part it's been a pretty "normal" time.
Then yesterday happened. I found on the floor one of his business cards (started his own busniess two years ago) folded up. I figured it was just a customer's number like normal so I unfolded it to enter into the computer. Instead what I found were screen names. I knew this was recent because it was one of his newer cards. My stomach sunk and I thought I was duped again. Normally I would've flown at him, yelling, demanding and threatening. but I didn't want to be like that anymore. I took a deep breath and tossed the card on the bureau until I decided what, if anything, I wanted to do. I told myself that I had certain boundaries now that I have said I want to uphold. If he's messing around, chatting around, whatever, i have to be done.
I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him. I was calm. I asked him point blank what the names were. He said he didn't know. I asked again. He said they were just names he made up but he's not chatting anywhere. I asked a third time and he admitted they were screen names he made for his friend who doesn't have a computer and wanted them set up when he went to the library next. He swore it was the truth. I asked him how am i supposed to believe it's the truth when the first instinct was to lie? He said he was afraid I would yell or not believe him. It's like talking to an 8 year old. Shouldn't you know by age 35 that lying makes it worse?
Where I'm torn is this. I actually believe him. I do believe that he did that for his friend, he's done things like this before for him (older gentleman, alcoholic and kind of a surrogate dad to my bf in a way) My bf has worked very hard to help rebuild the trust in our relationship and he just undid all his hard work. knocked me back to square one. Because now, knowing his instinct is to lie even over the most insignificat thing, how do I believe all the other things he's told me lately. things I took for granted that he was telling the truth about like going to meetings?
I'm torn because though it turned out he wasn't doing anything to break the original boundary (anything more with women and chatting and I'm gone) He showed me he would still lie first before coming clean. So if I stay did I not hold up my end of the "boundary agreement"? am I being harsh? Everyone lies here and there, no one is perfect, aren't I supposed to forgive? all go through my head. I'm not even angry. Just confused.
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"Change is the essence of life. Be willing to surrender what you are for what you could become."
As a very smart person once told me, "Alcoholics and Addicts lie". On one occasion, I shot down perhaps 5 straight lies, one at a time, when confronting my wife over credit cards that "she didn't have" (cards racked up with on-line pain killer purchases). It's very difficult. It's very difficult dealing with dishonesty from someone you love. After her outpatient treatment, life has gotten much better for us. But, I still have to keep my eyes open and be alert to the "signs". I cannot control her addiction and I cannot control what she will do to conceal it. I can only attempt to control my reactions. Only you know your boundaries and whether they have been compromised. This is a very tough issue for me, as well.
Hello, all I can say, is all will be revealed when it is time to be revealed. Keep connecting with your HP and remember that A's lie. It is not up to us to take their inventory.
You know they have a saying in Al-anon , when can you tell when an alcoholic is lying?? When his lips are moving. You have to realize that the A's are not content unless they are continually creating chaos and fuel , so they can keep on drinking. The bottle is their woman, friend lover. Don't try to focus on what the A is doing.
Concentrate on your own recovery , so your life will be manageable and focused on the real issue, that you are with an A and that brings drama into both your lives and whoever the A comes in contact with.
Continue learning and applying the tools of Al-anon for your own serenity and your own life. We can't control what another human being will do or not do, that includes the A. Remember to stay close to your higher power. I wish you strength, courage, hope and wisdom. Bettina
Your statement about , its like talking to a young boy is closer to the truth than u think , and his answer was the way it used to be you hollering and accusing he just dosent see that u have changed , your attitude over this incidient may convince him that there is no need to lie . I have heard many times that an alcoholic quits maturing at the age they start to drink so your talking to a teen ager who m ostly functions as an adult , can they catch up ? yes they can . You believe him so let it go . if he is lying again it will surface eventually . give him the benefit of the doubt . I have a friend who said that the one big problem that she had with sobriety was sleeping with a 13 yr old which made me laugh at the time but now I get it . Your boy friend is no different than we are he is learning a new way to live and just hasn't figured out that there is no reason to lie , one tool he just dosent need anymore . Old habbits die hard . Louise
I lied to my A (I am also an A). You want to know why I lied? Because I was afraid of him. He had shown me that he wasn't safe with the truth. If telling the truth got me a good grilling I just chose to lie. It was easier.
Also, we (As) start by lying to ourselves about our addiction. Then we need to lie to others to cover it up. This steamrolls into habitual lying even about things that don't matter. For me, this was in there - I was in denial about my problem and tried to cover it up. But even more I had never felt safe sharing my feelings, my thoughts, anything internal with another person (ever). Early in our relationship he responded vehemently to a couple of things so I just walked on eggshells for the next 2 years and told him what I thought would keep things safe. Then he would know I was lying and would chase me around with a bat (figurative) trying to get the truth.
Now we are working on honesty. I am working on communicating and he is standing still and being gentle in his listening. It is really scary. We are both trying, both optimistic and open to the other person and their growth, and working on our own issues.
Honesty can be hard but it can be learned, in a safe environment. I don't believe it will be perfection at first. I believe it takes time just like anything else.
The statement "All A's lie" and "if their lips are moving they are lying" convicts them and gives them no room for change or growth. Why try to improve or change if those who love us already expect us to fail.
Tricia
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To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.
Aloha Lizz...When I learned to give my alcoholic the benefit at all I stayed out of her business all together or else I'd go beyond 3 questions or more. I stopped nosing around like I use to and when I had the compulsion to investigate I did not do it. She recognized that I had changed when I never jumped at the bait I use to find waiting with a hook in it. The bait always has a hook in it and the hook hurts going in and hurts worse coming out...that little barb is there for a reason. When I started minding my own business and building my recovery the alcoholic tried to keep me in it. Funny I realized that all of my alcoholic and addict relationships tried that. They needed me there and I obliged until the program told me to quit giving pieces of myself away to those who would not participate. My serenity is a full time job and I won't get it from the alcoholic.
Change your Higher Power...someone greater than your alcoholic.
Tlcate, your experience might be different then mine , my x ah lied all the time, the statement I quoted came from Al-anon.
After I was in the program awhile it was not my business to find out if he was lying or not, its really not that important and it takes the focus off your recovery.
Most importantly A's lie to themselves about their addiction, they think they are normal even when drinking ,when they are acting like fools. The whole disease is based on a lie.
Im not going to walk on eggshells about what this disease is and what it does to the wives and family members of an addict.
I know you said you were afraid of your spouses response if you told the truth. Isnt that taking the responsibility off of you and putting it on your partner. Some of us have given many years to the A in hopes that they would recover. Sometimes our patience runs out, so we yell , oh, well....were human. Respectfully, Bettina
There is for some reason great personal satisfaction in catching someone in a lie. There is also for some reason, the desire to accept a "reasonable" lie.
They lie. That's all there is to it. Alanon counsels us not to try to catch them lying. There is power in that, for it alleviates us from the never-ending struggle for "the truth." I know they lie. You know. They know. And they don't change over night.
It's fair enough to ask "what is this?" But when the lie comes, let it go. You know it's a lie, so why search for the truth? It's a lie, and that is more significant than the why, or who. If someone will lie about something, they will lie about anything, and you cannot trust them.
I no longer delve for the entire truth. When I encounter a lie, that's enough. It's a lie, a destruction of trust. No need to further damage myself with wondering, no need to cause the A pain. Let them suffer their own pain in the lies.
All you need to do is set boundaries, and stick with them. And remember, boundaries are about "I" not "you".
"I deserve not to be lied to. If it happens again, I will..." That's all. But NEVER offer an "I will" and don't follow through! Remember, you have options (think of five). It doesn't have to be "I will leave" it can be "I will go away for a week and not communicate with you." or "I will disconnect internet access"
Boundaries are not control of the other. They are control of yourself. Exercise them properly and thoroughly.
In working my program, I am learning compassion and HOPE. I am leaning on the hope that I can grow in my recovery and that my A can also. I am giving him room to do that. All I put forth in my post is my experience. No blame for either my A or myself, simply the origin of my fear around open, honest communication and how I felt at the time when I lied. Then how the program is helping me recover. What it was like, what happened, and what it is like now.
I suppose I just have a thing for sweeping statements. I completely understand coming here or going to the rooms and spilling the venom that haunts us that has been created by the relationship with an A. I spewed gallons here over the last year and a half. I just try to avoid the "All A's are _____________" because it leaves no room for hope, no room for growth.... and well, it applies to me personally. I pray there is hope for me.
I was trying to clearly speak from my own ES&H from both sides of the fence, as an A and as the SO of an A. This was about my behaviors and my recovery. I also shared how that statement makes me feel. I have no expectations of others here and understand how deeply we have all been or are still hurting. I was simply trying to illustrate how compassion is starting to work better for me than condemnation. That is not to say that I didn't spend MANY many days living in condemnation of my A. For me, compassion feels better. I am just trying it on for size and sharing how it feels with my family.
Tricia
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To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.
One way I found out the reason they lie was to ask myself, "Why did I lie". When I was honest with that answer I pretty well was on the same page with the alcoholic.
I am sorry that this post as gotten off topic but it has.
I must agree with Jerry, the diseae of alcoholism causes many of us to be less than truthful. If it was not in words, it was in actions and motives. Denial and Pretend is something I used to Manipulate situations so things would work out my way. This is also untruthful.
I must be honest about this comment or any comment that "Bashes" alcoholics.
I have never read in any alanon publicaton the comment "when an alcoholic mouth is moving he he lying or all alcoholics lie"
In fact it appears that alanon literature cautions against sweeping judgements and the ODAT insists that we not treat husbands, sons etc as "bad Boys" they are sick human beings and should be treated with respect and courtesy.
This has been a most illuminating and helpful thread
I read it over the last few days, and all I could think of was a book Micheal Crichton wrote before he died, it was non-fiction, and he wrote a chapter called "they" about men and women objectifying each other.
It really struck a chord with me, I read some years ago and i still ponder that chapter.
By now I had adopted David's view of the inherent differences between the sexes, that men were the romantics and women were the pragmatists. His view was that each sex saw the other as a projection of itself.
I had thought that women were inherently different from men. And in formulating that difference, I had also objectified women. They were different. They didn't have the same feelings I did. They were they.
The biggest problem between the sexes was the tendency to objectify the opposite sex and ultimately become powerless before them. Both men and women did this about the opposite sex. They were this way or that way. They had this tendency. There was nothing we could do about the way they behaved.
What's really wrong with making them the problem is that you abdicate your own responsibility. Once you say some mysterious they is in charge, then you're able to sit back comfortably and complain about how they are doing it.
Now this is just me, but I had to come to a place where anything that wasn't "put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror" wasn't recovery for me.
I mean making "them", whether "they" were still suffering alcoholics, or the opposite sex, "villains" and "wrong" and "bad" made me feel better, it just wasn't recovery. It just wasn't helpful to my growth, quite the opposite in fact.
Kindness is the best form of wisdom
I'm still really struggling with that, no one can take a snap inventory faster then I can, and trust me, you are tried, and found wanting in a microsecond.
I just don't want that any more. It hurts too much. It hurts ME.
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
and as far as sweeping generalizations about anyone goes:
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mahatma Gandhi
Or we could believe all blacks are untrustworthy, mexicans lazy, asians treacherous, jews greedy, men stupid, and women crazy.
It's just not true.
I choose a different path. I choose as my first grade teacher said, Everyone here starts with an "A", you can quickly work your way down to a D or an F, but for today, you all have "A"s
I also choose the path of compassion, but I do realize it's not for everyone, and many aren't ready for it, and I have gone through too many years suffering without it, drinking poison and wishing the other person would suffer.
I just choose not to drink the poison any more.
I chose to put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror, and yes, the alcoholics in my family cost me my life savings, four years of my life, my girlfriend, my home, my own company, and untold suffering.
which made me laugh at the time but now I get it . 