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I just joined this group tonight because I am currently in a relationship with an active alcoholic, and I am trying to figure out if it is possible to have a truly healthy relationship.
We have been together for a little over two years and were friends for a year prior to that. Shortly after we began "dating", I realized he had a problem with alcohol...drinks every day, including the morning... has a super high tolerance.... can't seem to not drink beer regularly.
What makes it hard is that he is the most loving, communicative man I have ever been with... and we are compatible in many good ways. His tolerance is so high that I have actually only seen him drunk twice... and during those times, he became super sweet and sappy. He's never been violent or out of control (at least in my presence).. and I have no reason to think he has been so.
Our relationship is at a point in which we are considering living together. The situation would involve me moving into his house. So, that is bringing up a lot of questions for me. The big one is around money. If I were to say what the biggest problem is for him that is (at least somewhat) tied to his drinking habit, it would be his being irresponsible with money. He always seems to find money for beer, of course. But, the bigger problem is he doesn't make enough money (even without the beer) to manage his finances. A lot of this is his personal philosophy. He is a self-employed craftsman who struggles financially from project to project. I love his talent and skill and his willingness to think and live "outside the box", but he hasn't figured out a way to manage his finances... which results in stress and more drinking.
I love him very much. I can separate the disease from the man. And we are able to talk about his relationship with alcohol in a fairly honest way. He has claimed that he can stop drinking when he wants to, as he has done it in the past. But, trying to do it under financial stress is difficult. I am not so sure I believe this part... but maybe I will be proved wrong at some point. In any event, I have made it very clear that if he wants to stop, he has to do it for himself. I refuse to be codependent. But, is that possible?
Wondering if anyone else has had success in continuing such a relationship. I don't believe that he is not worth my time just because he has the disease of alcoholism.
I will be interested to hear what others have to say.
I've been in relationships with men who couldn't handle their finances, and I've been in relationships with addicts, and I've been (sadly) in relationships with men who were both.
My experience was that the spending (even if there wasn't much to spend -- he spent all of it) came before other considerations. And the alcohol came before other considerations. It was like being with a man who was married to someone and had a mistress on the side -- and I was the second mistress. I came last, no matter what.
Unfortunately I was raised to think that that was the best I could get, and that a kind, sweet, smart man who did not have any compulsive habits and was fully available was not possible in this world. So I thought, "Well, I guess I can get used to not getting everything I want, since something is better than nothing."
The pain I went through was long and awful. I wish I had taken care of myself early on, before it was so hard to extricate myself, and before my self-esteem and hope were nearly obliterated.
This is a bit of a depressing answer, so I look forward to hearing others' experiences.
I just yesterday filed for divorce from AH of 22 years (married 20). He has struggled with finances and alcohol/drugs/sex his entire adult life as well as his teen years. Always been able to get decent jobs and keep them for a while before the effects of the disease cause something to happen. But money, no matter how much he has made, never lasts. It's like he throws it out the window while driving down the highway. I took over handling the money about the time we were married but with ATM cards, credit cards, etc., there was always so many things that I wasn't aware of until too late. I was at fault too as I would not approach the subject with him because of his anger. We separated a year ago and one of his big "things" was that he wanted to handle his own money because he was sure he could do better than me. Well, here we are a year later, he may actually have hit bottom as he totalled his car, received a DUI and is now in rehab and getting divorced but he has a girlfriend half his age to console him however, she will soon realize he didn't learn anything financially brilliant in the last year. He has had so many OD charges on his bank account I could have made 4 house payments of $1000.00.
All this to say that my experience is they will always buy their "drug" of choice before doing anything else cause apparently money grows on trees!!! I'm not sure as an adult they will ever get it....remember their brain is the age that they begin using!
Not a very pleasant reply, sorry for all the negativity. Just my experience. I am not angry with him, the disease causes such dysfunction and they become so unrealistic because of the disease. Hate the disease, still love my husband very much!!
After 20 years in recovery from alcoholism, and 15 years in Al-Anon, I venture to say that as of yet, I have not met an alcoholic that didn't say they could stop if they wanted to, provided certain conditions didn't exist. That being the case, they tend to repetitiously keep that set of conditions in play, and thereby continue to justify, rationalize, defend and minimize their alcoholic drinking.
You have defined all the red flag indicators that would suggest there will be little, if any, security in the financial arena. You stated that this person is self employed. While this may not be the case, over the years of working with and helping alcoholics in one capacity or another, I have found that most who are truly skilled, tend to work for themselves because they can't keep a job working for someone else. Their work history is so spotted that finding viable employment based on their work history and experience can be quite a challenge.
While this person may be the kindest, most gentle, loving man in the world, I think its important to understand that if he is a real alcoholic, it will continue to be a relationship of three. Himself, the alcohol, and then you. He may be in denial, or know the truth and not wanting to admit to you, but based on what you have shared, you already know the truth....
"He always seems to find money for beer" (can't pay bills, but has money to drink) "drinks every day, including the morning" (something non alcoholics don't do) "has a super high tolerance" (while a .08 blood alcohol level makes non alcoholics intoxicated, it merely calms the nerves of the alcoholic so they can be marginally functional.) "can't seem to not drink beer regularly" (if alcoholic and he doesn't drink, alcoholic withdrawals set in and he gets the 3 S's. Sweats, Shakes and Sh*ts. Alcoholics have to drink a certain amount on a regular interval, if only to keep from going into withdrawals.)
Now, I am going to be completely honest here. If you are willing to engage in a relationship with this person, including moving into his place, knowing this information from the outset, it would simply suggest to me that you may not be healthy yourself, and if you arn't.... how can you possible expect to have a healthy relationship?
I heard a man one time say... "if you put an untreated al-anon with an untreated alcoholic, what you get is two tics without a dog, they will suck the blood (life) out of eachother in a short amount of time."
In 20 years as a active alcoholic, and 20 years as a sober alcoholic, I have yet to see a healthy, happy, secure relationship, be the by product of what you are proposing. Unless both parties entered the arena of recovery before taking the next step in the relationship.
John
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" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
I have been married to an alcoholic for 30 years, 27 of those years active and the later sober, it is only now with hindsight that I can look back and see how two disfunctional people came together and began what has been an hellish exsistence, we have had to learn the hard way and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone, if you are asking these questions now then in your heart of heart's you already know the answer.
I am not an alcoholic and yet I seem to posess the same traits, my husband was in love with alcohol,and I made it my lifes mission to try and make him love me more, love his children more, I thought I was the rational sane one, I was wrong, when you enter into a relationship like this it will truly suck the life out of you, a relationship has to be mutual, if there are problems from the onset, they will snowball.
For a relationship to work you have to recognise your own denial, you have to own it, and you have to be who you are for who you are, two broken halves can't make an whole. ( it's like the loonatic running the asylum)
Thanks so much for all of your words of wisdom. The replies I have received are as expected. Partially, because I already know many of these things. Part of me also wonders if there are couples who do manage a healthy relationship... they probably wouldn't be writing on this chat board or necessarily talking to a therapist. We are more likely to hear about the problems and the ones that didn't work.
It's a tough place for me. We all have flaws and growing edges, and I am not one to condemn someone because of these things. Yet, at the same time, I know that the "I can stop drinking anytime if I want to" is highly unlikely. But, I'm 39 years old, and after years of dating seemingly "healthy" men (aside from one other very brief dating experience with a man who was an alcoholic... whose life was completely out of control), for the first time ever, I can see a happy life and future with this man because of the level of love, strong communication, and common interests. Should I give that up and never find that again, although I am quite comfortable being single, as compared with most women, I would regret my decision. So, it's a difficult call.
At this point in my life, I have a very healthy sense of self esteem and clear boundaries. My experience in dating over the last 20 years has shown me that those guys who appear to be wonderful and have it all together often do not. And, in our society, we shun and judge the addict. I am not so sure that is the right philosophy because I would take this addict over any other man I have dated, and over many partners/spouses of married women I know. He's warm, tender, loving, and we can talk about anything. He's talented, and we love to learn from each other and share projects. We laugh, cry, and share our wildest ideas together.
Recently, he has been talking with a fellow crafter friend of his who has been clean and sober for 3 years about going to AA meetings. I don't know if he will do it or not. It may be a way to appease me in some way, although I don't pressure him to do it. I think even more so he is trying to appease himself... because he knows he has a problem, and I think he knows we have a good thing going otherwise, and he is fearful of messing up our relationship.
Indigo? all I would say is, go in with your eyes wide open is all, my husband is one very wonderful person, and I would go as far as to say, i have found the most caring and sincere honest people, are here in alanon, there are many many happy endings, and the reason we keep coming here is because we are in recovery, it is ongoing, I like to think by marrying my ah I got a few men for the price of one, but now I only got one life is less messy.
An alcoholic in true recovery is gift! for everyone!
I am 42 and in my first healthy relationship, ever. My b/f is not an A, we've been living together for just over a year now. I met him after I ws in program for two years -- focusing on myself and discovering what self love is and what it means to put me first. I didnt meet him, until after I was loving me first. For me that is a critical point/issue. Before that, all I did was attract A's left and right, being raised ACoA. I had to face and work on dealing with and changing my issues - which is no small task. Issues like abadnonment left me when I put the love of me first. Issues of perfectionism still creep in from time to time and me having add/ocd - well, I am still obsessive mentally but I can harness it into self and not others today. (i catn say Im overly self involved, fosuing on self and putting me first is still a struggle even after daily practise for 4.5 yrs).
I do practise detachment at every turn. It seems to me that the healthy people, do not stray from thier personal boundaries and will do what is needed to protect themselves. Today I can do this too. There were a few times in my current realtionship where I had to set a boundary and be willing to walk away - for myself. Luckily bf was able to accept what I had said and live with it. If not, Id have walked away.
I did everything diffferent when we were dating but u are asking about living together. I would suggest that u think abut your true needs vs your wants/fastasies. Are u able to pay half of everything and live together, is he? Is this the plan? Are u able to pay for the both of you, if that comes up? This is the stuff that would concern me with living with an A. B/c what Mattie sd in her 2nd paragraph is right - they will put themselves and their addiction first, its a compuslion and a progressive family disease. It will make u sick too unless u know what the pit falls are and can accept living like that. Pit falls with an A are - they are not always emotionally available, they will put themselves and their disease first (its non negotiable as they cant control it). They will drain u emotionally, energetically and in other ways (finacinally) unless u guard against that and are very careful. (ive had A's steal plenty from me)
It is kind of like being alone emotionally - u have to rely on yourself and be very emotionally mature/understanding. I think - I would attach waaayyy too much to others, always looking to them to validate me or make me happy - I dont do that anymore.
Dating is one thing, living together is another ~ think carefully about what u want and need. Take care of YOU whatver that looks like.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I am sorry you did not get the answer you wanted to hear. I don't know of ANY "healthy" relationships involving an A, unless the A is in recovery. The reality is a lifetime of broken promises, financial chaos, insecurity, pain, family heartbreak, worry, and anguish. I suppose I, too, have rationalized over the years to try to make it bearable, but at some point the rationalizing just doesn't work any more. I wish you wisdom in your decision.
I too had an ABF (recovering) who was the "perfect" man for me if you take away the alcoholism factor. We were so compatible on so many levels, it was easily the best relationship I'd ever had.
Like Mattie, I had a tendency to think that I was so flawed and defective, I couldn't really expect to have a relationship with a "perfect" man -- I had to accept some (that is, too many) imperfections because of my own.
Fortunately, my ACoA background gave me an absolute horror of living under the same roof as active alcoholism again, so I was able to set a boundary for myself that I wouldn't consider living with him until he'd achieved at least 2 years continuous sobriety. He never lasted longer than 4 months. He used to tell me that the house he rented was so dark and depressing that it was part of the reason he relapsed, and that wouldn't happen if he lived at my house. At least I knew enough to realize that was a pretty flimsy excuse for relapsing, and nothing would change in a different environment.
I don't know if I can have or find a healthy relationship. Heck, at this point I'm not even sure that I'm capable of accurately judging whether a relationship is "healthy" or not. But I'm learning, thanks to Al Anon!
-- Edited by ythannah on Friday 12th of March 2010 10:09:37 AM
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Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could... Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Emerson
In Al-Anon no one will tell you what you should or should not do, all that can be offered is our experience, strength, and hope. The quote that "Love Concours All" is not true when related to alcoholism. Alcoholism is a powerful, progressive disease, it takes no prisoners, it takes over their mind body and spirit. I have been married to a active alcoholic for 18 years. Do I love her? --Yes. Does she love me?--Yes. Am I the first love in her life?--No.
A person has to have a tremendous amout of acceptance to live with an alcoholic, they need to understand that the drink will always comes first. Remember the disease is a taker, never a giver. The disease "always" wins.
I wouldn't take a million dollars for the past 18 years with my wife, but in looking back if I had known all the problems this disease causes, and all it takes away--- then I probably wouldn't do it over again for 10 million dollars. Just being honest.
Please consider getting involved in the Al-Anon program and start attending f2f meetings in your area. Research and read all you can about Alcoholism. When making a major decision involving alcoholism it's my opinion that you need to make the decision using ----your eyes--- your head--- and your heart----and in that order.
Keep coming back!
HUGS, RLC
-- Edited by RLC on Friday 12th of March 2010 11:52:52 AM
-- Edited by RLC on Friday 12th of March 2010 12:25:06 PM
You are getting into a relationship loaded with disappointments, broken promises, discouragement and heartache. Alcoholism is a slippery slope. If the person isn't commited to recovery and they are actively drinking, the scenerio gets worse, never better. This may not be the answer you want to hear, nevertheless, it is the truth. Remember, the truth sets us free.
Aloha Indigo, It's good to have you join the family where you will get unconditional love and support and lots and lots of valuable Experience Strength and Hope for yourself. For me I was grateful to learn that Alcoholism is a disease and can be found in the journals of the American Medical Association and other. That helped me to be gentler on my alcoholic spouse and not perceive her as being a bad person. It also helped lead me to the answer to your question. Can I have a healthy relationship from an unhealthy conditon. No for me. I don't have and never have had the strength to carry 100% of a relationship and get it to move toward how I wanted it to move against the will of the other person, an alcoholic whose entire will was mainly centered on alcohol. The alcoholic can do their part.
It is possible for me to have a healthy relationship but not within the disease of alcoholism. It affects everything it comes in contact with negatively; mind, body spirit, and emotions.
There is much to learn in the Al-Anon Family Groups, Look in the white pages of your local telephone book (what I did that worked for me) and call that hotline number and get the times and places of the meeting near you and go as quickly as you can. A passing note? Al-Anon is in most countries on the planet. You are not alone.
It's the old "if you knew then what you know now..." If I had known what I was in for, I would have turned the other way and run. But I wasn't healthy enough at the time to recognize it. I was co-dependant and felt like this was the best I could do. I could overlook the booze because he really loved me and made me feel like the best person in the whole world because he couldn't live without me... what would he do without me? And he was such a good guy underneath it all. This sucked me in and almost sucked my whole self away. I distanced from friends (afterall, I had to stick close to him to take care of him, make sure he wasn't drinking too much or getting into trouble). My friends didn't want to hang around him. I lost outside interests. Of course we seemed to share all the same interests, because all his interests BECAME my interests so that I could enmesh myself in his world to be interesting, to be needed, to make him love me!
My ESH is to look at hard at what you are getting into. Look at why he is right for you. Dating an A is one thing..living with one and becoming financially entwined is another. Once you live with him, you have no escape from him when he is drunk. You cannot just go home and have peace. And now you will resent having to support him.. etc etc..Things will only get worse, not better. And the adorable infatuation that some A's have for their significant others soon grows to unrelenting needs as their disease progresses, that you will never be able to keep up with.... The easy going, fun loving, adoring you guy can turn into a needy, selfish, angry guy who always puts himself and the booze first. Tread carefully... I wish I had had this advice before I started down my path....
Thanks so much for all of the supportive and in some cases difficult to read words. It has given me a lot to think about. We are planning to have a conversation tonight about the prospect of moving in together. If it were to happen, I would be moving out of my rental and into his house. The scenario would be that we pay equal parts (I would basically be paying "rent and utilities" to him) and do it for a trial period of six months. A part of me has been eager to move forward, but another part of me thinks it would be wise at this point to see if some things shift on his end. For instance, he has recently found another venue to sell his work, which if he can manage it well, would bring in steady income and relieve some of the "financial stress". I am considering giving it the spring and summer to see where he is at in managing this aspect of his life, as well as his proclamation that he "is thinking of stopping drinking all together". I don't like ultimatums (sp?), so I am not going to give one. And I don't want to be roped into this position of telling him that is what I need him to do, because I think HE needs to do it for himself. I may just gently let him know that the alchol issue and the current financial situation concerns and scares me, and lets wait it out a bit and see what happens.
Aloha again Indigo...just a concerned suggestion? As soon as you can get and read as much information regarding the disease of alcoholism and how it affects the alcoholic and those around the alcoholic also. Read also as many prior posts here at MIP which are real life disclosures about what is happening now. This disease has victims numbering in the millions. It will not respect you or consider you as different or more deserving than the rest of us. I thought at one time that "I was different", "it won't happen to me" and was glad to escape with my life and nothing much else. Just a part of the lost with my last alcoholic wife was 2 houses and 30 thousand dollars just on booze not to mention jobs, other relationships and my sanity. There is more and that more is very very ugly. Had it not been for the Al-Anon Family Groups I might not have found my way out before it totally consumed me. Get the information before you talk with the alcoholic. When an alcoholic says that they are "planning on stopping the drinking" that is no promise just a "just might" statement to quiet your nerves. If he is alcoholic the booze owns him not the other way around and it will own you both if you join up.
MissPoo talked about the "Hind Sight, If I had known then what I know now" statement and still there are many here who have heard the information and made a stab at it anyway only to come away with the same sick results.
Part of the definition of Alcoholism reads that it is "A compulsion of the mind and and allergy of the body" and we have that same compulsion of the mind for the alcoholic as they have for the bottle and much the same allergy including mind, emotions and spirit.
What ever you choose is your choice. What ever happens is your consequence. Here at MIP and Al-Anon we get to own that which we are responsible for. Its part of the journey.
hello indigo... nice to meet you. :) thanks for asking the question 'can you have a healthy relationship with an A'. its a question we have all asked ourselves at some point. some of us have convinced ourselves that the situation is under control, its not as bad as it could be, it will all turn out all right in the end if we just........ and so on. for some of us that may well turn out to be true. sadly, for the majority of us it wont be. ask yourself this - how can the A in your life have a healthy relationship with you if he hasn't got one with himself? for several years i tried to convince myself that my marriage would be strong enough to survive this, that our love for each other would see us through, that eventually he would alter his ways. the reality is that my AH is a deeply disturbed individual with issues developed and untreated long before i came into his life. i was the one who ended up in councelling. i was the one who had the nervous breakdown. ultimately i was the one who had to leave.
However, i still think it is possible to have a healthy relationship with an A.
i talk from the experience i have been and am still going through. when married and living together i was afraid to voice my opinions incase he kicked off, i altered my lifestyle to accommodate his needs, i did everything possible to keep the peace. since separating i have taken back control of my own life. if you read other threads of mine you will see just how much hard work i have had to do to find me again - to learn to take care of me first. we now talk openly, we share daily events like shopping etc and we enjoy each others company. we have learned from being apart that our expectations of each other were way too high and could never have been achieved. some days are good. some are really bad. but each day brings a new understanding to both of us. we have more respect, we show each other more kindness, we appreciate each other's actions more, and we are both mindful of each other's boundaries. and thereby lies the key to a healthy relationship not just with an A but with anyone. respect, kindness, appreciation and boundaries.
"I don't like ultimatums (sp?), so I am not going to give one." -indigo1
Way to take care of you by giving it all some time/thought. It is also good u dont want to use an ultimatum b/c they rarely work and usually backfire. Boundaries are however effective when u stick to them and healthy people excersize boundaries.
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
One thing that occurs to me is that it wasn't until my alcoholic and I moved in together that I saw the true extent of his drinking. He has always been very clever at hiding it, though looking back, I realize that it was behind a lot of things that I merely thought were peculiar; I was too inexperienced to recognize them as drinking problems.
But when we moved in together, he could no longer hide the extent of his problems. It took me a while to catch on, but I think I might never have seen the extent of them if we hadn't moved in together.
Here's what I wish I had thought about beforehand: what my bottom line was. Not for an ultimatum, but for a boundary. What was the limit of what I could tolerate and stay in the relationship? Was it a drunken binge every few months? Was it him passing out? Was it him peeing on the walls? Was it him destroying furniture in a drunken stupor? Or did I have no bottom line -- would I take absolutely anything he did? Each incident pushed the line down a little further, until I was enduring things I never would have countenanced in the beginning. You might think whether you have a bottom line, or whether you are willing to endure absolutely anything (stealing? vomiting in the bed every night? ruining dinner parties with his drunkenness?). You might say, "Those things would never happen," and I certainly hope they don't. But just hypothetically, where would you draw the line? (I'm not asking you to tell us, just that you might think about it for yourself.)
In my own case, I told myself that I was staying with him out of love. But in truth both of us had addictons: him to alcohol, and me to him.
Wow, I just read all of these posts on "can you have a healthy relationship with an A".....seems the answers are quite clear in each and every post. Thank you all for all the reminders :) just in case I ever slip into fantasy vs. realtity land...:)
It has been so helpful to hear all of the words of wisdom coming from your rich experiences. It gives me a lot to think about and a lot of validation. Thank you.
We spoke last night at length about our plans to move in together. We are going to put it off for now and reassess at the end of the summer. This will give him more time to work some things out and more time for me to stand back from the situation and keep a clear perspective as we think about moving ahead.
It's just not a clear cut thing for me. Yes, he drinks every day, but he has never been mean, scary, violent, or, aside from 2 occasions at a private party with close friends, obviously intoxicated (because his tolerance is so high). He has never stolen, from what I know, but I believe he has taken advantage, or maybe took for granted, his former partner. She paid most of the bills, everything was in her name, etc. But, now he owns his own house, and he has said himself that he is learning all over how to be financially independent. I think I need to give him some more time to practice this. And, I have been very clear that I cannot and will not support him (or any other man, for that matter). I have very strong boundaries with finances, and he knows that fact. I will never do a joint account with anyone.
I think his intention to "just stop drinking" at some point is genuine, but I don't think he can do it as easily as it thinks. It may require me to give more in terms of emotional support around that issue than it would were I not with an alcoholic. But, the communication in this relationship is so easy and natural compared with most men who don't communicate at all! It would be great if he were a great communicator and didn't have an addiction to alcohol. It would be great if he were perfect. But, I don't believe anybody is perfect. I think every relationship takes some work.
I think a lot about myself and my own health and well-being. Some responders have questioned my own health, given that I am even involved in this relationship at all. And that is something to think about. I do think I have a very healthy sense of self esteem and clear boundaries. And I have my own hopes, dreams, and goals that I won't let go of, even for the best relationship. The one thing that I can honestly say might be seen as dysfunctional about myself at this point is that I don't believe there is a perfect man out there anywhere. I don't have hope that a relationship with someone else is going to be easier. It all takes some work. I think the key is to balancing out the good times and the challenges... and ideally keeping the good things most of the time. But, I will continue to monitor myself throughout the next several months as we move forward.
When you research information about the disease it will become clear to you that Alcoholics don't drink because of stress, don't drink because of financial problems---they drink because they are alcoholics---they drink because the sun comes up---they drink for one reason and one reason only----they have no control over the disease.
Putting off your decision is a good idea for you. Be honest with yourself during that time. You know what you are dealing with--- I will say as I said in an earlier post to you----- "Think With Your Eyes" for the next 6 months----------
The thing that alcholics and addicts and anyone with an addiction share is "emotional unavailabilty" no exceptions to that either. Nothing and no one comes before the addiction, ever .......I used to like to think there were exceptions to that but there are not. My sponsor pointed out to me if your with an alcholic /addict your co dependant...no commas just a period after that one :)
I just want to add also that it isn't a choice between "perfect" men (who don't exist, any more than perfect women) and alcoholics. Obviously everyone has imperfections, and we all have to recognize that even the most compatible partner will come with their own "stuff." The question is how much stuff is too much -- some people have a few suitcases, some people have tractor-trailer-loads. Alcoholism is a tractor-trailer-load driven by an insane person. Now, if a person's drinking isn't a problem to themselves or anyone else, then it isn't a problem. But we need to have some fearless honesty about whether it's a problem, because secrets and denial are hallmarks of alcoholism. I've never heard of a heavy drinker who actually drank less than he seemed to; usually it comes out that he's been doing a lot of hiding and drinking a lot more than was obvious. And drinking changes a person's thinking, focus, and priorities. It often keeps people from having steady jobs (keeps them unemployed or self-employed), reduces their income, accelerates their spending, and makes them declare that they're in total control of things and that nothing is a problem. It's so tempting to believe this. I think a good question to ask oneself is: Am I happy?
Well....I'm late to the discussion but wanted to welcome you ((((indigo))))! You topic/post here is awesome - brings about a variety of ESH (experience, strength and hope) with regards to relationships.
My experience - I'm a double winner - 24 years clean/sober - in recovery from use + reasonably new to Alanon.
I am married to another A, married for 19 years - together for 21.
So - 3 years sober, I met my husband. We were both in recovery. Dated for almost 2 years. Then - we married. I have stayed sober and close to my program of recovery. He has not.
He's passive/aggressive - more passive than the other. We have been fortunate to not have the issues (yet) that affect most others, as he works very, very hard to 'maintain'. He practices controlled drinking and periods of dry time (no use - no program).
So - we're still together, have 2 children and from the outside looking in, appear 'normal' or 'healthy'. Nice home, nice hood, cars, etc.
However, is our relationship healthy? Nope - not by my definition. By his - sure - as we're together. How is 'healthy' defined? Different for each person. How is 'relationship' defined? Also, different for each person.
We do not talk 'well' - if at all. This disease is very cunning, baffling and powerful and allows those not treated to believe they are always right, there are no issues, self-seeking and self-serving are fine, etc.
As this disease affects all elements of an individual (physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual), there's truly a lack of capacity for real relationship(s) - let alone healthy ones.
Of course, add to this mix the extended affects of this disease to the family and family members, and it just multiplies and becomes less healthy.
Our oldest child has inherited the disease without doubt. He's very immature and he's meaner than mean. Even when my AH is aggressive, he's more mouth than other, but my son is not. He swings - walls, doors, etc. - not me....not yet - but has threatened.
My youngest has addictive tendencies and is probably the biggest victim in our home. While we all suffer from the reality of this disease, I'm working the alanon program and seeing a therapist. He's seeing a therapist and 'considering' a program. But - since my first born is so high-maintenance, this one is neglected often, by circumstance, and is a great kid - not deserving.
So - with experience in addiction/recovery (me) and armed with an incredibly smart mind (BS Degree and Masters) + several years sober/recovery, my journey began. I knew what the risks were when I fell in love with my A, and went forward as - HE'S AN AWESOME FRIEND, PARTNER, HUSBAND - when he WAS working a program.
The man I met, fell in love with and married is very different than the one I know and live with now. However, it is what it is and it's been an interesting journey. I am one that works hard to live my program and stay focused on what I have vs. what I have not.
I do know that my HP (God) takes care of us all. I do know that his plan for me is still being revealed, and he does not intend / expect me to tolerate life, but rather enjoy it and live to the fullest. So - in spite of my circumstances, I enjoy life every day. I take care of me, I laugh, love and live to the fullest as I do believe it's a one day at a time journey.
I also have come to understand, that for me, and my program/life -- that which I often wonder or think I understand is better defined by exclusion. An example - I don't think I know fully what's a healthy relationship, but I sure do know what is not. LOL...
Sorry for the long post. My ESH - no matter how much we 'know' and no matter how wise we are or smart we are or .... we are - this disease is 'smarter', 'stronger' and far more baffling that I ever expected.
So glad you are here and thanks for the topic/post! The ESH here is awesome.
-- Edited by Iamhere on Sunday 14th of March 2010 08:14:45 AM
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
The "ESH" here is awesome. Each day, it has been helpful to log on and read all of the words of wisdom from each of you. Thank so much.
I too come into this with a strong educational background... I work in the human services field, which makes me understanding of the person vs. the disease, but like many women and people in human services, I certainly have co-dependent tendencies. I didn't grow up in a family where alcohol and drugs were an issue, but it was dysfunctional in other ways.... emotional abuse and neglect, extreme neediness from other family members, and the expectation that I was supposed to stick around and take care of their problems. Well, I left as soon as I could. I still have a relationship with my family, but it's more distant for my own well-being. Even now, they still try to pull me in, and ironically, my BF has been very supportive of me maintaining my boundaries with them.
So, I have a strong awareness of my own stuff around this, but it is an ongoing struggle and process. Giving up the love and other positive aspects of this relationship is not something I am williing to do ... at least not right now... maybe that will shift as I continue in my own process of my own well-being. But, living together brings would take things to a whole different level and that clearly scares me right now. So, I think it is wise to just stay put right now.
This sure has been a topic with response galore...so good to read everyones esh..thank u....was reading the acoa message boards today as well and near fell off the couch with a response from Quiet Morning to a post titled..alanon, acoa, vs.aca dysfunctional families.......all I can say is WOW in capitals....I'll leave it at that :) thanks for the topic and all the posts...
-- Edited by DreamXL on Sunday 14th of March 2010 11:28:46 AM
