"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

MaryPoppins · Veteran Member

A V-8 Moment

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: Times change, can AA keep up?

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

It's too bad that the non-necessary parts of AA, such as bad language, can't fit everyone equally. A friend of mine in AA said something that hit home for me. My A was complaining about AA because he had been raised in a dysfunctional fundamentalist home (I'm not saying all fundamentalists are dysfunctional, just saying that his family was) and the religious language used in his AA meetings triggered his upsetness about his upbringing. And my AA friend said, "You may have a terrible enemy. But if you've been lost in the woods for days and you don't know how to get out and you're about to die, and your former enemy comes to get you and lead you to safety, you'll follow him."

So to me it's too bad if some of the people in AA say or do things that make AA off-putting to others. But it's a terrible shame if others should let that stand in the way of their recovery.

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow... an amazing post, and not necessarily in a postive way.... My thoughts - why would AA change a successful program for a very specific, very limited quantity of "highly functioning alcoholics"??

Sorry, but I don't get this one at all - like any program, it has to consider the "greater good", where they can do the most for the highest quantity of people... I'm not saying there are not exceptions, as your hubby apparently is - but the vast majority of sober alcoholics have AA to be thankful for....

Tom

p.s. I have attended open AA meetings on occasion - perhaps a dozen in total, and have never witnessed any profanity or vulgar language....

p.p.s. my ex-AW, who eventually got sober via treatment centers and is a grateful member of AA today, originally stopped going to AA cuz they were "real alcoholics and she wasn't"..... or "those people are stuck, and I want to move forward", etc.... For her, at least, those were just excuses of someone who was not yet ready to get sober.....

-- Edited by canadianguy on Monday 18th of January 2010 04:49:32 PM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I've had many years of experience in many meetings. I traveled for business for several years, so have also been able to attend meetings beyond my own city/area.

I have never attended a meeting that I left feeling 'worse' after. Perhaps that has to do with personal style, or 'willingness'.

I can say that I am Catholic (recovering), view myself as spiritual and have a Master's Degree. Yet, if desired, I can and have cursed like a sailor. I'm not proud of it, but it is what it is.

To suggest that cursing aligns with skidrow makes no sense to me. All I know is that I was 'willing to go to any length' to find serenity and relief from my disease. For me, if that meant going to Men's meetings and begging to stay - I did that.

If that meant going to meetings in other cities where I knew nobody, I did that. If that meant going to meetings and staying to help others - I did that too.

I'll not pass judgment but can share that my Irish Catholic G-Father (rest his soul) died 'dry'. He had not consumed alcohol for more than 35 years. Each year, on his birthday, he went to church, asked the priest to bless him, stood on the alter, and made a commitment to his higher power that he would not drink for a year.

This went on for longer than I as alive. However, and this is the 'gotcha' for me - he still had the 'isms'. He was not serene, he was not happy, he was dry. He was a grouchy old man who expected the world to serve him.

My point - he missed the best gifts the program offered - true happiness and serenity - the ability to love yourself in spite of what you've done. A true shame for him - and all of us who loved him.

tlcate · Senior Member

Wow. Luckily for ME, I am not offended. But I would have to say this is a pretty good attempt!

I will choose the foul mouthed "low life" (gotta love that term) alcoholic who accepts me for exactly who I am (won't curse at me if I ask them not to) and is truly interested in my sobriety, my serenity, and me being able to save my life . . .

Over someone who thinks I need to "fit in" to belong.

I am human. I am worthy.

tlc

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

Well Mary , ya did it , you ticked me off royally, so enjoy .
suggesting that AA works only for low life type alcoholics is ludicrious and almost leaves me speachless . gee I think one of Bills co founders was a Doctor
The gentleman who wrote the chapter on acceptance was also a Dr. Paul , who according to his own story he ended up in the nut ward ( his words) of his own hosptial , willing to let people believe he was crazy instead of admitting he was alcoholic .

This mary is an equal oportunity disease it dosent give a damn how many degrees our husbands have . My husb happens to have two of them himself .

It says in the big book that some may never get it , because they are constitutionaly incapable of being honest with them selves and others .

-- Edited by abbyal on Monday 18th of January 2010 06:36:23 PM

david62 · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow.

Alcoholism is most definitely an Equal opportunity employer. There is no high end, middle end or low end to a disease.

But there sure can be in the mind.

And the bible is quoted everywhere in our literature as are many other spiritual sources.

When political correctness takes over AA or Al-Anon kiss me good bye. smile

tea2 · ~*Service Worker*~

MaryPoppins wrote:
Just some thoughts since posts by moderators have recently stated that we are free to air our respectful views and thoughts.

Although for this one I'm asking myself why? because this is a program

designed for us to place the focus on us, to recognize things we can

and can not change, the choices we have for ourselves...one day at a time
as our own program gradually unfolds. So I'm a little confused on the "why" for

this one?

Before I post I usually go though a checklist:

What am I hoping or trying to accomplish?

How Important is it?

Does this topic concern me?

Is this something that can be best served discussed one on one
with trusted program friends...a sponsor?

If they all get a pass then I'll (using the acronym THINK) make a New Topic/Posting.

(I don't know what more to add to the replies)

glad lee · ~*Service Worker*~

hmmmm

I relate.... my husband and i were crap-sniffers too.

The program brought me to spirituality... away from the religion I grew up with... which gave me a big fat superiority complex.

Today, I know that I am equal. The program taught me to stop comparing myself.... and start relating and identifying... to everyone my HP puts in my path.

Today, I have much more serenity. I am no longer at war with the world.

Charlie · Veteran Member

Didn't Mary Poppins associate with "lowly" chimney sweeps.....? :)

I have to admit, I laughed so loud over some of the language used in your post, I thought I'd pee myself. (Sorry for the vulgarity, but this is the truth.)

Mary, this is not a perfect world.
Many, if not all of our presidents, used vulgarity in private.
I would not consider them to be lowlifes. (Well......, not all of them. :).
Life is ying and yang. -Intellect vrs heart.
Profound speech and profane speech are found in the world we live in.

Beautiful flowers often grow from a bed of dung.

wp · ~*Service Worker*~

MP, I'm not sure what you are driving at really. If it's profanity at meetings, I should think the group could discuss this at his request. If it's about religion, well even the best of Jesus' followers were lowlife . I think you and he could do some research on reality. Remember, we may not like everyone in a group , but we love them anyway. Take what you liked and leave the rest. :)

wp

Melissa21 · Senior Member

Okay I have read this a few times through out the day and have been debating about whether to reply. ..

From your post I get basically that you want to have AA meetings for high functioning A's because your hubby and his friends don't like the "low lifes" and vulgar language at the ones they attend?

I completely agree with the above posts and if I was an A I would be quite offended reading your post.

This is Alanon. Most of us come here at first to find ways to fix them. But quickly we realize we can't. We are here to focus on OURSELVES, mind our own business and quit worrying about them basically. We climb ourselves out of the hole we dug ourselves into worrying about them. One day at a time we do things for ourselves.

And I also wondered do you really think that is why your hubby isn't going to AA? because one meeting there was vulgar language and you said ALL his friends seemed to have the same problem. A's lie with or without the bottle in their hand.

"low lives" high functioning A"s or not if someone wants to get sober they take what they like and leave the rest and work on themselves the best they can.

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Mary...I've been around a while the program for a while; since 1979 truth be known
and I have seen the issue of God be debated and rejected and wanted to be changed
by several for several purposes...mostly personal.   I've seen attempts to change both
programs for several reasons (AA and Al-Anon) mostly by new comers who arrived
still believing they had the "power" over something not knowing what that something
was. I kinda, sorta fell into that category myself until I learned what "Sit down, shut up
and listen" mean't in the program and then accepted that I came in with a need to change
only one thing..."me".   We use lots of "chants"....errrr prayers to close a meeting such as
the "Third step prayer" (seventh and eleventh too) the Serenity Prayer, Servant's Prayer,
Lords Prayer and maybe at times by group conscious something else like the declaration
of service ...both AA and Al-Anon. I have stood next to a Black Foot Indian and listened
to him pray the closing prayer to an Al-Anon Meeting. Ever hear a Blackfoot Indian talk
to his or "the" Creator?   Goose pimples for me.

I take what you have said to mean that you are talking about this being "different" and
because it is "different" you need it and maybe your alcoholic needs it to be more
simply understandable for you so you might not reject it, however what you will be
rejecting has worked for millions of recovering alcoholics. Current data suggests that
the spiritual based, 12 step/12 tradition social model programs are the fastest growing
spiritual programs across the planet and as a consequence many many people from
many many backgrounds and cultures who have needed relieve from alcohol and drug
addiction now have turned their lives and wills over a Power Greater than themselves
usually personally called "God" or The "God" of their understanding. I have heard
so many versions of the "God" of my understanding that I have come to doubt that any
language in the rooms or out of it can scare that God away. It will only drive out people
not God. God stays there are no words that can scare mine away. At times there is
profanity in the rooms and while there is there is no fear present and therefore rejection
by others or judgement by others.   We know we are equal and equally loved unconditionally
by God and others in the room. Today I know that words cannot hurt me unless I give
them the power to do so and I won't do that.   My enemy might be the sole instrument
God sends to find me when I am lost. I have no enemies where there is my HP and
another name for my HP is "Love".

Some of the many things I remember when sitting in the rooms of both Al-Anon and AA
are; from my sponsor "Present no defense against that which might save your life and
bring you to serenity". "What ever you're thinking about how another thing appears...
could be wrong." "Sit down...listen...keep and open mind."   "When you find fault with
someone else the problem is usually about you."   There are so many more and they
are in my tool box.

I have worked with "high functioning drunks". They may have had positions of authority
and notariety but being a drunk is not high functioning. There is no drunk that can
imagine himself/herself into sobriety without the help of another drunk who learned
how to work the program and put in the honesty and willingness to do that. Since ego
and pride, self centeredness and self will are well known tripping stones to the alcoholic
I don't even argue the point with one who will use those stones. The last one I did work
with who holds an esteemed position in a well known acitivity and industry and who
attended a very very well known and esteemed recovery program which cost lots of
money and which in part was done to protect his image and anonymity...has just relapsed.
This disease doesn't care about those things...only people do and while people worry
about the things they worry about the disease in its fatal nature takes another life for
lack of humility.   For me I was led to Al-Anon and AA by God...That is where God
wanted me to learn from others who knew what I didn't. I am grateful eternally for
that loving insight, patience and lack of condition. You and your husband might easily
reject those from the program. Do it with an open mind that reveals that these spiritually
based, step programs that are social model (people helping people) are the most
successful.   Present no defense against them at all but listen with an open mind and
as was suggested earlier..."take what you like...leave the rest".   If what they have
doesn't work for you go and find something that does and keep in mind that many
organized, ancient christian religions are beginning to use the steps method in their
practices. For us it isn't so much what we know now...it is what we do now.

Let me leave you with a personal awareness from my relationship with God as I
know God today.   "Aloha ke Akua" God is love.   In support (((((hugs))))) smile

o2bnormal · Member

Mary, what happened to your husband when he heard the serenity prayer? He apparently didn't apply what it said,

God, grant me the serenity to ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE,

the courage to CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN,

And, the WISDOM to KNOW the difference!

My A dad, had two degrees, one in math, and one in Psychology and went to work also, but alas drinking still killed him.
Only the person who wants to change , changes.

Actually , everywhere I go in public I hear cursing, by all ages and no one's getting arrested. The jails would be overflowing if everyone who said cusswords in public got arrested. I wish that wasn't so, (that people cuss all the time) but it's just the reality of today's world.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: A V-8 Moment

Ness · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi MP.....I read your original post last night and decided to sleep on it before replying. My serenity was seriously challenged ....so when in doubt....dont.

Why was my serenity challenged.....your post made my heart ache for my Ason...who your husband would class at the lower end of the scale of drunk......sometimes sleeping rough, begging, being abused and having to learn the language of the street to survive..... however he didnt start there....his disease took him there.....and thankfully the doors of AA, which he has been in and out, will always be open to him...a place where he is never judged but welcomed back (and probably told to sit down and STFU).

Im glad you have removed it. There is no dignity in this disease whether high or low functioning.

Ive posted this not in a fit of pique but in the hope that it will give you more understanding of this Cunning baffling and powerful disease

Ness

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi MP

I was very impressed with your thoughtful rewrite or your original posting.
You truly reflected the power of this program.

I was equally impressed with the shares of each person who responded.

Had this happened in my family-- foul language, name calling and gossiping would have been the way people would have handled the situation. No one would have clearly expressed how they felt with constructive non threatening language.

The power of this program is awesome!!!

Thank YOU evryone who shared.

Loupiness · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm thinking I missed something here, such as the original post? The replies were great, nonetheless.

But, based on what I am reading now, I just want to comment. I was married to one of those "genius" professional men who initially was not fit for AA because it was a room full of "negative and angry" people. In his mind, they were addicted, but he had just chosen to drink. He had absolutely no ability to see that he was one of them. As he dropped out of the program and progressed into his disease, I got into Al-anon and started learning. I learned that

1) the brilliance I saw to be able to manipulate and flip any conversation away/situation from himself (to the point where I would be the one apologizing), was not a trait owned solely be him. It is a "gift" of addiction, and what keeps the disease going strong.

2) going to work everyday, performing one's job, and bringing home a paycheck, but being being unable to manage "life" in general without the influence of alcohol/drugs, does not make one functional. It makes one very sick and one of "them".

I think I am glad I did not read the original post, but glad I read this one. Glad your can share yourself. I'm glad you are here.

Blessings,

Lou

kitty · ~*Service Worker*~

Dont kick yourself sweetie, get the focus back on YOU and work your program and detach from what ur AH is saying & doing. Focusing on him, only feeds the disease and takes you away from you. Take your power back, focus on the one you can control or change.
Dont kick yourself, just try again.

Any topic that gets us talking is a great one, thank you for this thought provoking thread.

Remember slips help us re-evaulate and re-define what it is that we truly want, it is how we grow. I ask myself daily, what can I do to allow myself to feel better today and then try that & see how I feel, afterwards.

Keep coming back & working it odaat for YOU ~ you are worth it!

My mantra: focus on YOU, love you first and detach from everything else.

John · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm really confused... Here I will share as both a member of AA and a member of Al-Anon.

How can a highly functional alcoholic, with all those brains, not get what is happening to and around him? Or truly comprehend what is going on in these rooms full of sober people? This is a simple program for complicated people. I have never, in 20 years seen anyone too dumb to get it, but unfortunately I have seen many that were too smart to get it. They rationalized, justified, and minimized the true nature of their diease, until their Dis-EASE has them walking out the door. Its not the lanugage that was being used, or weather it was a group of low bottom or high buttom drunks. They were just alcoholics who had not had a drink but still funcitioning mentally and emotionally as a drunk.
Maybe they are not as highly functional or intelligent as you have been lead to believe??

Last thing I'd like to share here, which for me is far more important... is what the HELL (yes, I'm a low bottom alcoholic that uses profanity with 20 years of sobreity) are we doing on an Al-Anon board, taking Alcoholics Anonymous inventory?? Anything related to Alcoholics Anonymous program, formats, ect, is an outside issue. It has nothing to do with Al-Anon or ourselves, as Al-Anon members. We came here to Al-Anon having discovered we couldn't cure, control, nor were the cause of alcoholism, but now since we can't fix them, we will fix their program?

If my language ever chases someone out of the room, they never surrendered, nor did they ever want to be there to start with and looked for the differences instead of the similarities. They were such high buttom alcoholics with no recovery, little sobriety, and looking down their nose on someone like me who has 20 years of education in AA, that they will most likely miss as they walk out the doors.

If God and bad language chases them out, I truly believe their diease will chase them back in... if they are lucky.

John

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene