Fears. - Al-Anon Family Group

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Fears.

Melissa21 · Senior Member

Welcome Not2bforgot10

When reading your post there are a few things that pop into my head. First is I am powerless over alcohol, over others actions. When I worry and try to fix them it does ME no good at all.

Also one day at a time. Christmas is awhile away when I constantly worry about the future I am missing out on so many things in the present and don't live in today.

Also we can not fix other people. If they want to drink they will drink. We have more important things to worry about then if someone is going to drink or not. We need to worry about ourselves. What are YOU doing for YOU today?

Live and Let Live. We have to learn to live our own lives and not try and live the lives of others in hope of helping, fixing or changing them because when we do this nobody is living our life and we become sick.

Keep coming back!

I just wanted to add we are not here to give you advice or tell you what to do. We share what we have done and learned. You take what you like and leave the rest. This is your recovery at Alanon!

-- Edited by Melissa21 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 11:23:55 AM

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Melissa,

Thank you for your response. (Sidenote: Is this crosstalk? ie, for me to address you by name?). I like that you (Q: Again, is this crosstalk? If it is, I will be sure to be more mindful of it next time) you stated "I am powerless over others actions." I really need to remember this (I seem to think on some unconscious level I am not). And you are right, it doesn't do me any good, so the question is, why do I do it? I need to know why before I can stop, or rather, so that the chances of the past repeating itself will be lessened... I am interested in getting to the root issue. With that being said, I will have to sit on this for a while and reflect.

Memo to self: "Why do I try to control others' actions? What is the reason/purpose for this? ...what are the associated underlying feelings?

As for Christmas, or any other-related event, being a little ways away, this worried "future-focus" has been a struggle for me since the loss of my father when I was 19 (I am 25 now); honestly, it may have been a struggle before then... I would have to reflect on this, too. For all I know, I may have had this fearful outlook since I was a small child.

You had stated "If they drink they drink." Immediately when you mention this, I start feeling feelings of resentment (towards her and my over all situation). I'm not sure why... because she is not me... She is her own person, and so why do I feel feelings of resentment? Am I taking it personal? ie: is there any underlying belief that "She can only love me if she doesn't drink?" or a fear that "If she drinks she not be available to me and thus cannot fully love me, thus (taking it a step further) equating me feeling worthless, ie: unloveable). I realize that is not a true belief, but if it's unconscious or a core belief it would make sense as to why it's ruling my life and concious behavior.

Memo to self: "Why does it bother me so much when someone else drinks?" "What am I afraid of?" (I sense that there is fear involved).

You mentioned "We need to worry about ourselves," and this is so true, so again, (before I can do this, or muster up the motivation), I need to know why I attempt to worry about others? What is the underlying belief and associated feelings?

"Live and let live." Gosh, I wish that were easier! Living in the present is VERY difficult for me... certain things make it easier; ie: When I feel safe with someone, when I have my enviornment set up a particular way (I am an HSP-- Highly Sensitive Person) so things must be a certain way, amongst other factors (work, stability, relationships, etc), but in general, living in the present is a real struggle for me. I am working on it :) ...attempting to balance it with all the other things in my life, ie: external (relationships, work, etc).

Thank you so much for your post.

Melissa21 · Senior Member

I think many of us here at one point and time have tired to control A's (alcoholics). I know I did for some reason I always thought I could fix them, I could help them, I could change them..if only I tried harder next time it would work and they would stop drinking. If only the loved me like they say they do then they would quit drinking...

Alcoholics are powerless over alcohol. Alcohol will always be number 1 for them no matter what...unless they quit drinking..go to AA get help...

Why are you feeling resentment? I am not sure. Do you think it will be your fault if she relapses? Because her drinking is not your fault you can not control it.

One thing that comes to mind with this is expectations. Do you expect her to never drink again?

I have learned to have no expectations for A's. I can't control them so when they don't live up to my expectations I become angry. Why should I become angry for something I can not control? It's hard and still at times I have expectations I don't even realize till I am disappointed.

Why do you worry about others? There could be many reasons. If you continue coming back, look in phone book for face to face Alanon meetings you may find answers to your questions. Don't expect it over night but slowly you will learn more and more. I know I often worry about others because I am codependent. I think many who deal with addicts and alcoholics become codependent. Not all of us..but some do. You could try googling it and read about it and decide for yourself.

Live and let live is easier said than done. I am working on this and have been for awhile. I can't just come here learn all I think I need to know and leave for good. I come to Alanon daily, I have books I read daily, I have alanon friends I talk to often.

Living in the present is difficult for me as well. But I am always told why keep worrying about the past? It's done I can't change it and why keep worrying about the future? When will I live for just today? I miss out on A LOT when I don't live in the present and never realized it till I started not thinking about the past and future..not that I Never do this I am still working on it.

Sometimes I will make a list of what will I do just for today?

What will I do for me today?

How important is it? Does it need to get done today or can I do it later? If I can do it later I quit worrying about it.

And I always try and remember progress not perfection. It took me a long time to get to where I am at. (grew up with alcoholic parents) so I can not fix myself over night and I am not going to try to fix myself over night.

-- Edited by Melissa21 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 12:41:56 PM

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Not..

Here's another perspective.

If you don't want to go, Don't Go!! You will be unable to control anything whether you go or not. It sounds like you dislike everything about it. The sibling fighting, the mother, the possible slip. Why set yourself up? Why should you be manipulated in to a stressful Christmas?
Alanon foremost suggests that you "take care of you". Putting yourself in that situation doesn't sound healthy. Maybe you could spend it with your family or friends?
"NO" is a complete sentence. An addict is going to do what an addict is going to do. What are you going to do?

I had to address a similar situation at one time. My A had worked for the same company for 18 yrs. Every year we had gone to the formal Christmas party. Every year he would get drunk and I would drag him home. I hated it!! After attending Alanon and applying some boundaries, I just said "no". My A was concerned what people would think if I didn't attend after all those years. I didn't care. I learned I had choices through Alanon. I no longer put myself in situations that I didn't want to be in. I quit signing up for anger, resentment and humiliation.

Christy

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Melissa,

Thanks again for your response. I want to make one clarification first. You had mentioned "alcoholics;" "alcoholics" 'x,' "alcoholics" 'y.' While I am sharing on an al-anon forum, I am in a relationship with a former addict (drug). My partner had a cocaine addiction, some other addictions, and an alcohol addiction, but NA makes no distinction with alcohol; alcohol is still a drug in the program's eyes.

Anyway, I am sure it's the same concept, or similar.

As far as why I am resentful... I imagine it is because somewhere subconsciously I feel I can cure her, although I know consciously this is not true. The resentment I think is coming from the unconscious feeling that she is not listening to me as if (unconsciously) I know what's "best" for her (again, consciously and realistically NOT true). I don't know if I am magical thinking or what... And I wonder if others have problems with these unconscious (underlying beliefs), too? And if so, I wonder how they are addressed seeing as how much of it lies in the unconscious.

I do NOT think it will be my fault though if she relapses; absolutely not, because I do feel (Whether or not I "believe" it is another story-- Actions Speak Louder Than Words) that people are responsible for their own choices, and obviously if she chooses to drink, causing a relapse, that was a choice that she had made.

I think the problem is me trying to convince my unconscious mind that I am NOT responsible for her behavior and/or "healing" her. I think in order to be able to heal this, I need to first identify my underlying beliefs (found just beneath the surface and/or in the unconscious) so that I can develop an awareness around the issue. Awareness seems to be the first step to changing behavior.

As far as expectations... good point, thank you :) I honestly do expect her to drink again, yes, which I think more or less is a fear that I have, thus a projection on my part; however, I think there is half truth to it because if I was feeling safe and secure with her, I would not get these mistrustful feeling. Does that make sense?

I would consider myself a pretty intuitive person, and if I am not feeling safe with someone, it is difficult for me to trust them... and I do not feel safe with her because she is not taking recovery very seriously (in my eyes). She says she's just not "ready" for all of this... again, she's on Step 1 and doesn't, or hasn't, rather, fully admitted she has a problem yet and is "Powerless over drugs/alcohol."

So... she's not taking her recovery very seriously for all I am concerned, which scares me and instills fear in me because I sense a relapse. I don't know about you, but if an addict/alcoholic is not in recovery knowing they've had a drug problem, that spells Danger to me with a capital "D." The problem is just that... Step 1... she is not "there" yet (She has not, for all she is concerned hit "bottom" yet), yet she's going to recovery because I have half-way convinced her that it will be good for her... plus, a part of her, likely her unconscious, knows that she has a problem. Her present behavior still very much reflects this problem, similarly to a "dry drunk."

She thinks that just because she has awareness of her addiction, she can "control" her addiction, and this is NOT true (as anyone who has worked the program for a while would know). So to make a long story short, yes, I do expect her to relapse because her denial is affecting my sense of safety and is just a disaster waiting to happen. How can I trust her (trust equates safety) when she is not honest with herself?

You had stated having learned to have "no expectations for your alcoholic," but isn't that having no expectations for yourself? Isn't that having no standards? (just wondering). I mean, to have no expectations for someone, yet to know/feel something is wrong, sounds like self-denial. Aren't we, or rather I (I will speak for myself) robbing ourselves of a healthy relationship?

And if we're co-dependent and that's what this all comes down to, then shouldn't we (Please let me know if this is cross-talk; I am speaking in general terms) be in CODA (Codependents anonymous)? Wouldn't you say CODA, or even ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics and/or otherwise "dysfunctional" --ie: rigid, abusive, etc Families) would be suitable? Granted, we are in an unhealthy relationship with an alcoholic, but to get the help we need, wouldn't it be fair to say that CODA or ACOA would benefit us? I know, at least for me, that's true, and I know that if I am not in either of these programs I am robbing myself of personal growth. If the addict is to go to NA or AA, then I am to go to CODA or ACOA.

As far as "live and let live," I am going to start meditating, exercising (more than 1-2x per week), and grounding myself... I think (for me) it will really help.

"Progress, not perfection--" Good one; extremely difficult ;)

I guess the main thing (which I probably know deep down inside) is that I am afraid... as ACA calls it... ACA's "Laundry List" trait 12-- "We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us". What's sad (and scary) is that some day, if not otherwise faced, fate will intervene, and I will have to deal with my own very worst fear... and to think that I thought I already had gone through the "fire..." I guess it doesn't end yet until we deal with all of our issues. Fate will time and time again put them in front of our face until we overcome. I guess that's the receipt for true Courage. Still, knowing that, there is much more to understand. I want to balance both the head and the heart. I want to be able to stand in Truth and act out of Courage, not fear or compensation... but true Courage... to be able to say "I own the right to myself," and "I own the right to be my own person." Moreover, "I can." I want to feel right... centered and enlivened.

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 03:27:18 PM

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Christy,

Thank you for your response.

Ugh, yeah, now here is where my controllingness (I dislike that word by the way, but why cover it up?) comes into play and really shows it's true colors.

You are completely right... If I don't want to go, I don't have to go. So the question then becomes, "Why do I 'want' to go then?" (This is going to sound really bad... but...) the big reason is out of fear... because I want to watch and SEE if she drinks... I do not TRUST her going with out me (This sounds so bad; I am beating myself up now and am very critical). I simply do think she can control herself, as she has proven time and time in the past to not be able to. Moreover, she is still fairly new to recovery... new enough... she is basically skating by... the bottom reason though, because I do not think she will be able to resist the temptation.

I guess I figured if I go, and I'm there, she will be less inclined to drink, but you know what? You're right... and that is magical thinking. She will drink regardless, and if anything, if I'm there, and she wants to drink and doesn't because of me, then she will resent it, and it will likely come out later inappropriately.

You know, I am actually thinking about whether or not it may be BETTER if I don't go, because if I do and she wants to drink and does end up drinking (because she feels she simply cannot hold back), I will feel extremely betrayed (another issue for me to discover... "betrayal;" again, what's the core belief involved here) and guilt-trip her unintentionally through my expressed dissatisfaction. Moreover, my dissatisfaction will likely tap into a fear of hers (losing me; she too, has abandonment issues) and she will then likely self-sabotage our relationship and/or her best efforts at making the rel. work. (When she feels guilty, she quits/bails). I definitely do NOT want that. ...so either I'm going to have to deal with the prospect of her drinking and somehow MAJORLY separate from her (psychologically) or I am going to have to stay at home.

The problem is if I stay at home I will likely drive myself crazy. Now I think THAT is the true definition of insanity! ;) Really though... or co-dependence, rather :P Sitting at home waiting, wondering, OBSESSING about someone else's behavior. I need to up my CODA meetings... it sucks there's only one here and it's all men and 1 woman :( *Sigh* Oh well, it's still a meeting... ACA is helping for now...

When I try to put myself first (as you suggested, and as litature suggests) I end up feeling bad about myself for being in an unhealthy relationship... I think what it comes down to is me facing my fear of being alone... learning to be alone with myself. At this point I am really scared, and I feel like I am depending on her for emotional security (How? I am not sure... I don't even trust her... magical thinking maybe?).

I know I need to learn to depend on myself, and I am trying... I am arranging things in the outside world to help me with my inner world... for example, I am trying to get a job right now... I just graduated in May and have been looking for a job since (I'm a little slow; I'm an introvert ;)). But yeah... if I can get a job, then I will at least know that I can take care of myself financially, which is pretty important! I can at least achieve financial independence, I say to myself :)

Alright, I'm sorry to have to cut this one off, but I need to get some food in my tummy... I'm pretty hungry :( Thank you for your response, and I look foward to hearing from you again.

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 01:50:00 PM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Aloha Not!!   Whew....God it's been along time since I've gone thru what you're
going thru and thank God for the program.   Yes Christmas isn't here yet and as
an alternative to going where the drunk is you might be able to go where the drunk
isn't.   Al-Anon areas usually have Holiday get-together events 24 hours long where
you can drop in and visit...go to a meeting, sit and eat with other members who
also are where the drunk isn't and generally hang around and get healthy rather
than sicker.    Live in the moment and plan for the future.

That doesn't sound like much of a partnership at the moment and your lately sober
partner isn't sober. Sober takes a long time and during that time I came to Al-Anon
to learn how to live life on life's terms.   My alcoholic wife got dry and I couldn't
stand that any more than when she was blitzed.   So I gave her my best response
to her question "Do you thinking I am an alcoholic?".   Dumb as a stick I was. The
best answer was "I don't know" and my pride said "No." She of course left the
program and continued drinking.   I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know.
Often times that is where FEAR comes from; the confusion and lack of awareness
and experience.   Like Christy I got my No, I'm not going! from inside the meetings.
I learned how to support myself and focus on my own right to happiness rather
than the sadness of being a victim or martyr.   I had to learn how to avoid the
(F)alse (E)vidence which I was using to cause my reactions and learn that though
in the past it always (A)ppeared (R)eal (FEAR) it wasn't and I could make better
choices.

It sounds like you've been around program some. I would suggest that you get
around program some more (much more) and go for yourself alone. (Your only
motive).   You can change your current situation. Al-Anon is where you can do it.

Keep coming back...(((((hugs))))) smile

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

To anyone whom I have not yet gotten back to, I apologize. I will get back with you shortly.

In the meantime, I want to share a posting from my journal. I had written it this evening in response to some of the responses generated...

Reflections:

I need to learn to have a healthier rel. w/the Self.

Q: Why do I try to control others actions? What is the reason/purpose for this? ...and what are the associated, underlying feelings?

I imagine I try to control others actions out of fear. Beneath the control I think is fear. (Control is the surface behavior and fear is the underlying issue).

"But what am I afraid of?" I ask. I think of being replaced or not needed. Replaced = not special... not special = not worthy... not worthy = undesirable, and undesirable = rejecting, rejecting = abandonment.

So I "fear" abandonment and control to keep people from abandoning me... I think the problem is, I set myself up for failure, because I choose people, unconsciously, who will abandon me because the people I am seeking initially are not healthy, and I imagine I unconsciously choose those whoa re not healthy because I find a way to make them need me, and so they stay and I am left feeling needed... special... worthy... desirable... but there is always a threat. For instance, drugs or alcohol are often a part of the picture... So I am never 1st, so I set myself up for failure and 2nd best and am never fully loved for "me" like I desire. It comes and goes, but it's all dependent on the other person's mood.. and then I get resentful because this is not stable for me. Yet, I don't trust myself enough with a "healthy person" and so I'm never willing to branch out and take the rick. I guess because I feel like at the core I am inherently flawed or not desirable (thus loveable/worthy). I don't want to need to be needed anymore, but I can't seem to "need" (nurture myself) propely because I can't seem to mirror myself... I have alwyas looked externally for that. Besides, I think, "Isn't it normal to want to be loved?" But "What is 'love,'" I ask myself... A need to be mirroed? A deisre? Actually being mirrored? I think I need to realize it comes from within, yet I feel like a tthe sam etime that closes me off from personal rel's b/c I have a tendency to rely on other's (validation) more than my own. Where's the balance?

Heavy questions, I know ;) Just some food for thought...

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

Feeling "needy", like "fear" is a self created illusion. We are not the sum of our past. We are not what other's say we are. We are individuals who have the ability and the power to create who we want to be. BE the change you want to see in yourself.

Ponder that confuse

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Jerry,

LOL... I was just going to say something about how al-anon "family groups" should host a "family" gathering for Christmas and other holidays ;) Too funny :P What are the chances though that they'll have one on Christmas? That's such a HUGE holiday; I'm sure MOST people will be spending time with their families or extended families! *Sigh* I am aca and have no "family" outside of aca. My only "family" is aca. Typically (sadly) my partners become, and are for all intensive purposes my "family." It sucks when you become involved with "family" who in no way, shape, or form act like family... but then again, what is "family" supposed to act like? I think it comes down to expectations... I have heard a lot of people on this forum (and in al-anon f2f meetings) say we, alanoners shouldn't have expectations, but to me (as stated earlier) that sounds like true self robbing. It sounds like not having standards and being able to live a healthy, fulfilled life.

Yes, I have been in alanon for a while... I am not consistent though; I am an adult child (ACA) at heart, and so that is where most of my energy is spent. Alanon has been good to me though; it was the first program (12 Step) I ever attended! 1-5-08 :)

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Christy,

I agree that we are not the sum of our past; however, our past does influence us. I think our past lies in our subconscious and a large part of in our unconscious. It is my belief that until we become aware of it, we are prisoners to our past. It takes a lot of digging and soul-searching to lift the dirt out of the unconscious and into our awareness. You (in general) can think of soap... and our bodies... when our body's are dirty, we cleanse them using soap... and during this process, all the dirt rises to the surface.

So metaphorically speaking, our past ("dirt") must be uncovered in order for us to be clean. I don't know, maybe I place more emphasis on the past than most people, but I just feel like (for me) it has its grip on me... I feel, in many ways, chained. The only way to break free is to cultivate and refine awareness and then ACT --upon what we have learned and know/believe to be true. I am still attempting to cultivate and refine awareness; ACTING is another story... I could act on a *few* things I am currently aware of I suppose, but I am waiting for certain factors to fall into place.

For instance, I know right now that it would probably be best to separate from my partner, at least for a short while, but I am afraid due to my emotional dependence on her, but as I stated earlier, how am I really emotionally dependent on someone who really has nothing to give? Good question? I am milking her for what very little she can give me... and I am not always entirely *aware* of this and certainly not proudly. When this does seep in my conscious I feel very needy and disgusted with myself. I do not want to "need" anyone; certainly not someone sick or incapable of providing. To say the least; however, I stay in a relationship I know would probably be best suited for another time because I am waiting for certain factors to fall into place.

For instance, I am looking for a job, and so I am telling myself that "once I find a job, I will 'x.'" Whether or not that is true or not, my decision to act will be ultimately up to me. I have to do what's best for me and in accordance with my higher self's beliefs. I will, and can NOT live my life from a place of falsehood; absent of integrity. It feels wrong. I cannot just "be" with someone when I KNOW I am not right with myself, but then again, we can't be prisoners all of our lives, either. We can't live only for ourselves and as hermits... so again (This seems to be a struggle of mine) where is the balance?

I sit here and reflect on what I've just said, and I think to myself "Should I/do I have to really wait until I find a job to leave this relationship?" And the answer is "no." So obviously I want to be in this relationship... and that is when I need to get very honest with myself and ask myself why? What is this relationship bringing to me or doing for me?

Memo to self: "What is this relationship bringing to me or doing for me?"

The first thing that honestly comes to mind is security... relief... I am an introvert, and so when I go out and have a long day or come home from work (future-tripping), I want to be able to have a partner there to comfort me... Studies have actually been done that those people not partnered tend to not live as long... people, HUMANS need love... or "companionship," rather. (I don't even know what 'love' is). So knowing this... having this knowledge leaves me torn... wavering on what to do... ie: to stay or go?

There is so much we can learn in relationships... I would hate to see it go, but then again, I need to learn how to be in a relationship with myself, and every time I do this (I have done it a couple of times) I end up after a few months in another relationship... it's very frustrating to me... I don't understand why I can't just be alone? ...unless it is God's way of saying "Emily, you don't 'need' to be alone... we learn through relationships." Maybe I just need to learn balance or something?

Or maybe I need a healthy partner and while/at the same time, I can work on myself. Does that make sense? Maybe the partner I am with now just isn't right for me... or maybe (who knows) I am looking for excuses to push this person away because deep down inside I do not really feel lovable. Maybe I have in fact introjected the projections of my unhealthy, impossible mother. Regardless, these are things (patterns) that need to be looked at and closely examined, because unless I can understand them I do not see much hope in being able to change them...

Thank you.

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 06:15:07 PM

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 06:40:43 PM

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

recognizing your fears and saying them out loud is a good thing , but u also need to realize that feelings are not facts , Xmas is along way away for aug. 27th. Your partner will have to learn to Just not drink no matter where she is there is booze everywhere and u cannot wrap em up in bubble wrap to keep them sober . * believe me I considered it *
I am curious about wether u are attending al anon meetings for yourself , if you were i don't think you would be worrying about things u have no control over - your partners sobreity is up to her . Not your job to keep her safe and sober . the alcoholic is not the only one who has to change , we do too , hovering and burdening them with our real or imagined hurts helps no one . those belong to you and u are the only one who can fix them , Al-Anon will help u with those . Get the focus on your own recovery support your partners efforts at sobriety and enjoy . Louise

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Hi.

I am not attending al-anon right now. I attend ACA and CODA every week. I stopped going to alanon because the alanon groups I went to didn't delve deep. I felt like I already knew the core root of my problem, and identified myself as having "abandonment" issues, which pertains more to CODA, and particularly ACOA. In my experience, ACOA has gone deeper than al-anon at identifying patterns and causes.

Moreover, I often get frustrated in alanon because in alanon we are told to simply "detach" and are given little information on how to have healthier relationships with ourselves. I often would hear over and over "just 'detach,'" 'detach' this 'detach' that, but what about personal fulfillment? What about identifying the core root of our problems and then taking it from there and moving forward? What about becoming healthier with ourselves first so that we can have healthier relationships with others?

Alanon did help me in many ways, but I question whether it's for me. This could always change later down the road, but for now, I'm happy with what ACA and CODA have taught me.

I could probably honestly create a whole other thread about "detachment" ;)

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Thursday 27th of August 2009 09:14:38 PM

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

I guess I see things differently.
I don't necessarily need to know why I was like I was. If I did have it all figured out, then what? I would just know why. I needed to know how to change those thoughts and behaviors and move forward.
If I'm spending my time in constant search and attempting to "dig deep", I'm pretty much staying in the "why mode". If that's what I'm living, that's where I'll stay.
Does it really matter why?
If someone told you that you could leave these behaviors behind if you took care of you, created protective boundaries, focused on you recovery, learned to appreciate yourself as a person, don't have to accept unacceptable behaviors, or people, give you tools to work with...Would you do it? That's what Alanon offers.

Even though the past may lie in your subconscious, our spirits are more important. If you can nurture the spirit of who you are, focus on a new you and feed that, you may uncover a new beginning. We have the ability to start over at any time.

An old Cherokee fable:

"One evening, a grandfather was teaching his young grandson about the internal battle that each person faces.

"'There are two wolves struggling inside each of us,' the old man said.

"'One wolf is vengefulness, anger, resentment, self-pity, fear. The other wolf is compassion, faithfulness, hope, truth, love.'

"The grandson sat, thinking, then asked: 'Which wolf wins, Grandfather?'

"His grandfather replied, 'The one you feed.'"

p.s. Detachment means, detach from the addict behavior and it's hold on you. You are powerless anyway. There's no need to sit home an ring your hands. How will that serve you? We have a saying.."When I got busy, I got better".

Christy

-- Edited by Christy on Thursday 27th of August 2009 08:30:11 PM

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Christy,

For me, the "why" allows me to uncover unconscious beliefs and helps translate them into identifiable patterns. It is my belief that if unconscious beliefs are not examined and brought to the surface then they will repeat themselves. Does that make sense?

I can learn all those things that you listed, ie: "took care of you, created protective boundaries, focused on you recovery, learned to appreciate yourself as a person, don't have to accept unacceptable behaviors, or people, give you tools to work with" but these things only go so far. "May the past be undone if not learned." I know for me, personally, I have to examine those underlying threads... maybe other people can get by with not examining these things, but it doesn't work for me. I think it's a temporary solution to a deeply rooted problem, or manifestation, rather ;)

I agree that the spirit is pretty important, too... the spirit, to me, is health... at least, that's part of it. The spirit ties in with the Higher Self... every soul is said to have a Highest Self, the "Knowing" "Wisdom" part of ourselves... I don't know if you're into tarot at all? Have you ever studied it? Major arcana card #5 The Heromphant is that "spirit" part of ourselves. It is the part responsible for transcending... a lot of transpersonal psychology encompasses it. Mind-Body-Soul/Spirit. Interesting stuff :)

:)

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Friday 28th of August 2009 09:43:46 AM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

I am loving the memories that come from being in, staying in and working this
program. The similarities of experiences are enlightening as many of us walk
parallel paths and often times criss cross. Still where we end up is the
consequences of our work and not our thinking. I analyzed like crazy with
the gift of some powerful sponsors, one of them helping me to learn that the
only answer to the question why (when I wasn't in acceptance) was the question
why. That was soooo true. I also learned that the definition of "being humble"
was "being teachable" and I remember I had to enroll twice before I was able to
say to myself..."I don't know and don't know that I don't know the solutions."
Those in the program had them and I had problems.

There isn't a day that goes by that I am not thankful for the Al-Anon Family Groups
and when I admitted to myself that I was totally powerless (and clueless) I put
myself in the position to learn. The first most important message I ever received
when I truely got into the program and owned my seat was, "If you keep and open
mind, you will find help." I have never found the key to the locked door to my
thinking since that time. It works if you work it.

((((((hugs)))))) smile

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Jerry,

I am totally powerless, and so I guess the thing I need to work on next is loving myself and being okay with being alone.

-E.

carolinagirl · ~*Service Worker*~

I think what this comes down to... and I do this too... is I want them to think feel what I want them to think/feel (usually the same thing I'm thinking and feeling) and when they don't I get resentful and angry. I want my ex to love me again, I keep thinking I can convince him. NEVERMIND what HE wants!!! LOL

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

E...you can make the work even shorter and simpler on you self and cut off the
thoughts and procrastinations of being alone. You're not alone now and though
we maybe looking at that picture from slightly different angles (perspectives) the
"just loving yourself" part is enough work for now.

(((((hugs))))) smile

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Thank you everybody for responding. I would like to hear stories of people's personal journey's to independence and/or discovery of the self. What was it like for you? Can you recall your patterns? Do you remember your life before recovery? Can you remember, and/or recall a particular time when you broke away from past relationships and/or unhealthy patterns and took a step into the light?

I think hearing others' stories about personal transformation would really help me not feel so alone.

Thanks!

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Hmm, has no one successfully journeyed into a relationship with themselves and their inner child?

debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow so much widom here.

My thought was, though we may have a partner, we are still two separate people.

Their addiction is theirs.

My life is mine,I am an adult, I make my decisions. Your heart is telling you something. I would invite you to listen. You have shared what you feel,"I don't want to go."

To me it is like bungy jumping, nope I don't want to go. And I am sure you would relate to what makes me afraid of that!

I would say, "I love you, I am choosing to stay home on Christmas. I mean if you decide to follow your heart.

If I went to an uncomfortable situation, learned to just sit somewhere, be quiet and smile
If someone came by or sat down, I would just ask them a simple question. how are the kids, how are you etc.

Being shy and not liking crowds, had to figure this out!

Hugs, and take care of YOU. debilyn

Not2bforgot10 · Veteran Member

Hello everyone :) I am attempting to provide everyone with an update. The holiday season has rolled around, and I wanted to share my experience with you. I want to say that since the last time I wrote things have been good in that my partner was sustaining from substances.

She stopped going to NA (In NA alcohol is viewed as a drug) a couple months ago maybe in and around October? She stayed in the program for 4-5 months, possibly?

Anyway, some stuff has happened, and I would like to share it because it's been on my mind and bothering me. I cannot sleep. It is 7AM on my end, and I am sick with a cold, and should be sleeping, but feel sick to my stomach about all of this... and I can't help but toss and turn.

My partner and I had a huge fallout yesterday. A lot has been building up. We did in fact go and visit her family for Christmas; this past Friday (through Sunday) to be exact, and there ended up being a lot of drama. The family fought as I predicted, and the mother (who's very co-dependent) AND grandmother (Addicted family dynamics, huh?) guilt-tripped Erin (my partner) over not spending more time with them. Erin and I had spent more time with her father (he's the only one that respects her choice for a healthy lifestyle) and they were not dealing well with it.

Anyway, Erin ended up feeling horrible and getting really emotional. One thing lead to another, and yesterday we had a huge blowout where she left the house for a while, only to come back and attempt to break up with me. She told me that she "wants her life back." She says she feels controlled. She said that she wants to be able to do whatever she wants and not have to "run it past" me.

She then preceded to say that she DOESN'T have a problem with alcohol, sex, etc etc... literally contradicting everything we had decided on earlier (in her early recovery). Even if you take me out of the equation, she can still think for herself and SHE decided she had a problem. Now, all I was hearing was "I don't have a problem with this... I really don't... I think I listened to YOU," etc etc.

So to make a long story short, she was basically telling me how she felt that I had "brainwashed" her (She was playing the victim here) and how she doesn't think she has a problem at all.

Let me just say this... ever since I knew her she didn't think she had a problem... even in her recovery she couldn't get past step 1. She never wanted to admit to having a problem... she did temporarily, and then denied it.

The truth is, (for all I am concerned) she does have a problem, and she has had a problem to begin with and been in denial to begin with. She is notorious for rationalizing, and it doesn't help that her family has addictive issues, too. At best, dysfunction, and so they are not going to be any good for her when it comes to being a positive influence/role model.

Anyway, she basically gave me an ultimatum yesterday saying that either I give her COMPLETE freedom, "including alcohol, time out late, trips away for a week if she wants," etc or she abandons our apartment (that means that she would move back home with her dysfunctional family 8 hours away) or simply sleeps in separate rooms (my office space that I use for business would no longer be allocated; it would have to be used for her to sleep). Basically all the things that I originally did NOT want to happen... things that I thought were unhealthy or ridiculous.

What it comes down to is that she doesn't want to NOT drink, etc. anymore. She never did care about her problem and program as far as I am concerned.

I am annoyed because I keep choosing women who cannot stay AWAY from the alcohol! Who cannot use their HEADS! Erin also has other issues, such as infidelity and hyper-sexuality. Excuse me for saying that; I realize that is very private, but I am just trying to paint the big picture accurately... she says that I am the only person that she has never cheated on, literally. I would like to add, though possibly entirely irrelevant, how I have had dreams of her of cheating on me again and again. Anyway, she says that she hasn't cheated with me like she has with everyone else, but I cannot help but think the worst, ie: it will happen sooner or later.

She told me that when she used to drink and get high that she would sleep around... not a lot, but enough. Sleeping around is sleeping around. Anyway, she told me that she would do things that she normally wouldn't do, which brings me to say, I hate it when people use substances as an excuse (rationalization) ie, "I did 'x' because I was drunk." I'm sorry, but that is absolutely no excuse. Okay, so maybe I have high standards, I don't know?

I do know that I desire a healthy lifestyle, and my partner, despite her best efforts, has never been able to succeed at that. She honestly does not have the willpower. She has the willpower to be stubborn and very passive-aggressive, but never to live a healthy life and/or to challenge/question her own motives. She lacks self-awareness. She also lacks control. She is very impulsive. She likes to have fun; sometimes, too much fun.

Despite the contrary, and forgive me for saying this (I am being entirely honest here) I do not feel like I can leave her due to the lack of emotional ties I have with my family. I know that sounds very horrible, but I have never had a close bond with my family. I was adopted when I was little and was adopted out to an abusive mother and taken away from her but still forced to see her, and my family has since, since honestly the death of my father (my main/only caretaker) over the years, fallen apart. I am truly alone.

I have always felt alone inside emotionally, being that I was never given that emotional support and nurturing that I needed, but this (the thought of) situation of being truly on my own financially is terrifying. To say the least, it is keeping me in the situation I am in. I am afraid to leave Erin because I am afraid that I might not have any security come the spring/summer. As of right now I am paying for everything that I need to pay for... I am very financially responsible, but some things have happened where it is making it hard for me to work (the 9-5), and I have had to think of other options.

I am currently doing part-time life coaching, and I greatly enjoy it, but that still does not make up for the fact that I am not in a healthy relationship due to fear. The basic fear is that I will be on my own entirely with out someone to help me, and I will be homeless. I know that is a big fear, but it is realistic. I do not have family to turn to. I am not yet in a place of financial independence, let alone security, and I am just trying really hard to buy out the time as I attempt to build my business, but still, all these emotions (fears) are dragging me down...

I am afraid now. Erin has basically said that she is going to do "whatever she pleases," which was basically her mentality to begin with. I am in awe (shocked) by the fact that she is saying that she doesn't think she has a problem with 'x,' and 'x,' and moreover, that she would blame ME for it all, saying I "brainwashed" her! Great way to take responsibility! And sadly, that makes me question myself... but I KNOW she has a problem. It's just twisted... the fact that I am starting to doubt myself now? She is basically rationalizing again and escaping responsibility, a pattern I have seen, blatenly and literally since day 1.

I am just feeling helpless... "stuck" is more or less the word. I want to get out of this relationship, but as I said, I feel like if I do and the/a situation arises, I may not have anyone to rely on (I couldn't rely on Erin anyway, but she has stated that her family is there to support us). Of course I do not want to utilize that option (it is a shame and embaressment on my heart, and definitely NOT healthy); however, I may feel as though I do not have an option. I am trying my BEST to get on my feet, but (as stated above) am exhausted by all of this fear.

The "fear" by the way is that I will be abandoned and left alone... that I will not be able to rely on someone. It is a very legit fear. The fear obviously is that if the person relies on substance then they cannot give themselves (their true selves) to me and a whole slew of issues will come with that, ie: cheating (the possibility), recklessness (lack of money/security) etc. I do not want to go that route again.

Shortly later...
I am mulling things over in my head, and am starting to feel very desperate, hence the second additional post.

I basically told Erin last night that I would be willing to give her complete freedom, including alcohol (this is actually considered a drug, just as medication is for those in NA) because I still wanted to be with her due to what I mentioned earlier about the fear of not having security.

Anyway, I am starting to feel 1. Very scared, and 2. Resentful. I am not going to lie, I am afraid, and I am questioning whether what I did (said/agreed to) was a good thing. I could have just accepted the break up and we could have had our own separate rooms, but she would have gone back home in March (that is when our lease is up), and I would be left with absolutely NO support (scarriest thought in the world). So... I held onto the relationship. Obviously I also care about her and would like to see things work out, but the truth is, our values and interests are so very different I don't think it would ever work long-term... especially if she has an addiction problem which she is not willing to admit!

I am just so TIRED of the rationalizing... the denying! I am still (literally) in disbelief because of yesterday. I mean, I am honestly mulling over in my head whether or not the decision I made was the right one, because I will be honest, it feels to me now that I am ending my life... why? I am not sure? Fear? It's the whole substance abuse thing... she is going to be using again (relapsing, for all I am concerned) and we will be at point 1 all over again; the only difference this time is she concretely doesn't think she has a problem b/c she has rationalized herself! Dangerous? Slippy slope?

You're telling me. So here I am sitting in fear... I seriously feel like a little girl (My inner child speaking, huh) who is afraid... afraid to move. Afraid to be. I tried to "be" before, when I first met her until I shortly found out she had addiction issues, and more. I then went back into my little cave and told myself I would "try again 'later;'" now I wonder when? I wonder if there will be a later?

I honestly wonder whether or not I will EVER find a healthy relationship. I know that sounds extreme, but I cannot help but think that all of my life I have been in unhealthy ones... I wonder, what does that say about me? I mean... I know I am not perfect, but I feel like I have values... I have standards... I am smart... I have a drive... I guess somewhere inside of me though I have my own unresolved emotional issues and maybe until those are resolved, I will continue to have unhealthy relationship after unhealthy relationship.

I don't know... even if I do give her "complete freedom" as she so nicely put it, she still may leave me at any time... either by cheating on me, or simply by leaving me come March when our lease is up. I may still be left in the cold. Do you know how that feels? To not be able to trust someone/something? ...a situation? To fear the floor falling out from beneath you? It's not a good feeling at ALL... I feel helpless and almost desperate right now. I am afraid. I have every reason to be afraid, too... I have never had security in my life... what little security I had that my father provided me with back when I was a child and through my adolescence was shattered at 18-19 when my dad died in front of my eyes.

It's times like this that I just want to close my eyes and sleep forever... I am truly afraid to the point of paralysis. I am just waiting for that first drink. Of course I can't blow up, either, because then she will leave me. I feel on a tight rope/string. I feel controlled now, yet I feel controlled by the situation, as well! I feel controlled on both ends... fear is putting me into head-lock.

The truth is, most of us (though certainly not all) have family... family that they, if ever there was an emergency, could fall back on... I don't have that. I am trying to have that right now, and family is most definitely an important value with me, but the truth is, I don't have it yet. I am attempting to build security in my life... and enough to last me. Enough to where I can have freedom and independence to pursue happy, healthy things in life and to have fun... it's been so long since I have had fun... since I have smiled... since I have felt safe... I just want to, in so many ways, live my own life, away from addiction.

I want to pursue healthy and happy choices... partners! I want to spend some time alone with myself. I feel like in so many ways unhealthy relationships are like toxins. They poison you, and yet, I feel powerless over my circumstances due to both the fear and reality of the situation. The simple reality is 1. I don't have family to turn to, and 2. I don't have enough money to survive on my own at this point. 3rdly, I am not able to work the 9-5 more than part-time because my body cannot handle it... I can; however, coach, and can coach for 10+ hours. I am good at it, and I love it. It's not manual.

But yeah... I just feel... helpless.

-- Edited by Not2bforgot10 on Tuesday 15th of December 2009 09:40:19 AM

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.