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Post Info TOPIC: How far does Co-Dependency reach?


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How far does Co-Dependency reach?


I went to my individual counselor today.  I told her things have been going well in my marriage despite what we have faced in the past 4 months and it's because I'm desperately trying to understand myself and why I control things and trying to let go of that.

I have decided to not even ask my husband about when he might be going to AA.  It's his responsibility.  I did say this week that I was attending my Wednesday night Al-Anon meeting and he immediately said, "Oh, I'll go to AA Tuesday night." I explained to him he couldn't go because HE had an IC appointment in the evening which of course he never wrote down and forgot about like so many other appointments.  I pay a lot of these Dr.'s $75-$100 for missed appointments and we can't afford that. 

When my therapist heard this she told me that I need to STOP doing this for him.  He has to take responsibility for his own appointments.  She also explained this is a way HE CONTROLS ME, in that he knows I'll do it and take care of things.  She said, "If he doesn't clean the bathroom, what would happen?"  I said I would clean it.  She said, "EXACTLY!  He knows you'll do it for him so he doesn't have to and this is also his way of controlling me."

Now I'm just at a point where I'm utterly confused.  I THOUGHT I was doing the "Accept the things we cannot change" portion of Al-anon, but I don't WANT these added responsibilities.  He NEEDS to do them himself, but GOSH - I KNOW he has not been ever able to organize himself and we can't just throw $75-$100 out the door for every freakin missed appointment.

I need insight from anyone here who can help me see this a bit clearer. 
Maryann

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((maryann))

Well maybe he needs to see that $75-100 out the door a time or two to get the message. He's been advised of the cost of these missed appointments. Then again, there's also the impact to your family's overall financial picture.

You're in a tough spot, sweetie, trying to juggle family financial needs with getting rid of enabling behavior. I feel for you and wish I had some experience that I could share that would help you. For now, about all I can do is offer my support.

hugs,

bg

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~*Service Worker*~

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That's a tough call, and I wouldn't agree with your therapist's advice, in totality....  Yes, it's important for us to allow the A's to face the consequences of their actions.... but we also have to be aware of when they impact us, our financial well being, etc., etc...  I re-posted an article that explains this quite well - written by Toby Rice Drews - but the bottom line is that the line is NOT black & white, in most instances....  Hope this helps....

Tom




Enabling vs. Detachment

Hi all... we've had lots of great discussion on the board in recent weeks about the subjects of "enabling" and "detachment", so I thought I'd post some great information about both of these items, direct from an expert in the field.....  Hope it clarifies some of the misconceptions out there....

Take care,

Tom

p.s. for those of you struggling with a child having addictions, I see that Toby has now written a book specifically aimed for you, entitled "Getting Your Children Sober".  If it's anything like her original series, it's likely a valuable book for your recovery.....

The following is posted, with authorization, from Toby Rice Drews, author of the "Getting Them Sober" books on recovery.


In one of the chapters of the book, "Getting Your Children Sober", I wrote about the myths that most counselors believe, that lead them to mis-diagnose and be off-base in the treatment of the families of alcoholics that they have as patients.

Here, I"ve copied and pasted part of that chapter that deals with the myths that therapists often believe, when they are counseling the family where there is alcoholism/addiction---------- (to read several of the chapters from that and three other books, go to the section of this website called "DOZENS of GTS excerpted book chapters. If you don't have children or if they don't have problems with addiction/alcoholism, and if you are only dealing with adults with those problems, these chapters will still help you.)

"Myth #6: When parents are told they are enablers, it leads them to stop the enabling."

Enabling is meant to describe the res­cue opera­tions that the spouse or parent of an alcoholic carries out, when he cant stand watching the alcoholic suffer the con­se­quences of the disease. When that hap­pens, he cleans up the alcoholics messes (lies to the school that his son has the flu when the child was actually picked up for drunk driving). That way, the alco­holic doesnt suffer the real conse­quences of his behavior.

A parent must learn, eventually, to get some detach­ment on watching these crises happen in order to stop cleaning up after the child. The idea is to allow the disease to hurt the child so much that he or she wants to get sober. Of course, it takes a parent a lot of time in a healing group such as Al-Anon in order to be able to do this. And this detach­ment cant be forced or rushed by counselors. It is a slow process, and very frightening.

When a mother rescues her alcoholic child and I label her an enabler, she ob­viously is still doing the rescuing behav­iors and is not yet unafraid enough to give them up. She knows I am being judg­mental when I use this term. Even when I say it lovingly, I seem to be admonishing her to go faster than she is capable of doing at that time. And she feels des­pairing, because she is doing her best. She may get so discouraged and frustrated and overwhelmed that she stops treatment.

More specifically, the term enabler implies that while the parents did not cause the drinking, their rescue operations con­tributed to the perpetuation of the drinking. Such thinking is dangerous; it leads alco­holics, who are already looking for a way to blame others for the drinking, into again placing responsibility for the drink­ing on the family.

Alcoholics do not need any encourage­ment to blame others! Alcoholism coun­selors spend most of their time trying to crack through the blame-systems of alco­holics. It is considered to be a major break­through in the wellness process of alcoholics when they begin to acknowl­edge that nothing got them drunk. In contrast, alcoholics who have had relapses and are re-entering treatment are now often heard saying, I wouldnt have gone out that time if I hadnt been enabled!

The alternative to being labeled enablers is to teach you to end the rescue operations through the simple but effec­tive process of detach­ment. For, de­tach­ment will help end your fears and it is your fears that origi­nally caused you to rescue. And even though, in this book, we are pri­mar­ily talking about par­ents and kids, the detachment process is espe­cially important if you also are married to an alcoholic. It is important for you to lose your fears of that adult alcoholic so you can get on with your life and become more able to deal with your children-alcoholics.

How does detachment work? How does it help you to lose your fears of your alcoholic child or spouse? The general process goes something like this:

1) When you begin to learn ways to stop watching the alcoholic in order to begin the healing process of seeing to your own needs, the alcoholic has ­radar and senses this switch in focus.

2) Much of the games stop then, be­cause the alcoholic child knows that less attention will be paid to him or her.

3) By continuing to focus on yourself in­stead of the alcoholic, you get an even greater distance (detach­ment) from the threats, and begin to lose your fears of them. You begin to see how you gave the alco­holic so much of his or her power. You can take it back!

4) Again, the alcoholic senses this. He or she begins to threaten even less.

5) You see that detachment works! You gain more confidence. Many of the illusions in your household are begin­ning to end.

6) You lose much of your preoccupation with the alcoholic. Your pre­occu­pa­tion was based on your needing to stop him or her from hurting you. You now see they are much less capable of hurting you than you thought. Theyve already done most of the damage they can do. But the game has been to keep up more of the same junk, to keep up the illusion that the alcoholic is powerful. This no longer works. You have learned not to look at him or her; to walk out of the room; out of the house to not beg.

7) The alcoholic now stands alone with his or her disease. Theyve lost their audience, and therefore drop much of the bullying. You are not watching it.

Cool The alcoholic can no longer get you to believe you are responsible for his or her drinking and for the craziness in that house.

9) The alcoholic has a chance to grow up and make a decision to get help.

10) You are free.

When I teach parents the dynamic of what I have just described, they begin to naturally let go of the disease to detach, and therefore stop their rescuing ­because they are losing their fears of the alcoholics. All of us stop manipu­lating and controlling people when we lose our fears of them.

* * *

As a therapist, I try to let parents know that I will gently help them along the not-straight road toward freedom from their fears. I let them know that they do not have to meet a timetable. In fact, I let them know that I am aware that I do not walk in their shoes, that they must be comfortable to make even a small step; that what I will do is love and accept them, even when they vacillate in their ability to detach from the disease.

I let the parents know that I know they will be ready some day. I try to give them the same hope that Al-Anon holds out that my acceptance of them will be part of the healing and will help move them along toward health and the choices that they now can only dream of.

And then, gently, naturally, inter­ven­tions do happen, because with one hand I provide the healing embrace and com­fort of total acceptance and without pressure; while with the other hand, I hold up the mirror of reality and nudge them along ever so gently toward reality.

P.S.------ People sometimes ask me, "well, if he is never home, and if he is supposed to pay my cable tv bill, I am the one who feels deprived, not him, if I don't rescue and pay the bill".

What I reply is, "We all have to use our God-given common sense. There are no totally-black-and-white answers. When alcoholism counselors say, "don't rescue'-----they do not mean that one should NEVER rescue. OF COURSE if you see an alcoholic who has fallen down in the street and is bleeding, you call an ambulance! That is just using your common sense. But what we encounter daily, are the non-life-threatening issues that we need to learn to deal with----------again, in a common-sense way--------

a. if he runs up a bar bill, we often say, "don't pay it for him"
b. If he needs his golf course bill paid---------and if he takes clients there who pay him well and that income pays your child's tuition and your mortgage------ then it's often better to pay it!
c. if he is supposed to pay the utilities and he does not-------it's often best to pay them so that you have electricity!
d. if he is violent-------OF COURSE you FIRST AND LAST------ do or do-not-do what is best, to protect yourself and your children.
e. if you are terrified to lose him---------that he would leave if you didn't rescue his bills------- then you must do what YOU want to do------

As one of my chapter titles in my books says, "no one has the right to tell you to leave the alcoholic---------not even your counselor".

We all have the right to heal in our own time, in our own way.




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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

"What you think of me is none of my business"

"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"

 

 

 

 



~*Service Worker*~

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Really hard to stop taking care of things isn't it ? I am eternally grateful to the man who invented sticky notes . hehe   How bout listing hubbys apts and posting it on the fridge so he can see it- point it out to him ONCE only  , and leave the outcome to him . one small way to make him responsible . JUst a suggestion , OH  and i picked the brightest ones to post things on  Pink . hehe so he can't m iss it .

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Thanks all,
I know everyone is right.  I guess my main issue is his irresponsibility affects my FICO score...LOL.  I mean one major issue in our marriage that is still not resolved to this day is the money.  I pay everything.  Great.  He makes money, Great, but he has NO idea how much we make and how much we don't save and how much every week I'm paying Peter to pay Paul, and I'm TRYING to detach. I've TRIED to stop asking him to get involved in our finances. I have 3 small children I'm trying to raise too and we are almost in over our heads, and he's not even drinking.  He's the most unorganized person you'll ever meet.  Maybe because alcohol has done this to his brain, maybe because he is also a child of alcoholism, but allof this is affecting me, the kids, and our finances. 

How do you detach if you dont' want your own credit score wrecked and your married? 

I don't even want to do sticky notes.  To me that's just another form of me reminding him of his own responsibilities. 



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I can really relate to the feelings of irritation that I hear in your post along with the confusion of how to set healthy boundaries with your AH without shooting YOURSELF in the foot.
I struggle with that too.  I too know the feeling of not wanting to be the only one participating in the grown up responsibilities.

Sounds to me by the responses you've received that there is no easy answer - no black and white solution.

I guess its all about finding what works best for you and going with that.hmm

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~*Service Worker*~

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Gosh...He and I sound related...and then sometimes I get it done best.
There are times when I have to do first and more because of my expectations and
then I notice that my spouse gets to it before me...well okay no biggie.   She has
bought me appointment books and stickys and note pads and whatever.  The
appointment books are always a year old by the time I get to them..."how the hell
does that happen" I no longer ask and she hasn't bought one for a couple of years.
That might be a savings.   Finances? laughable.  She does finances for a living an
I have at times had to take full responsibility for them.   I bring things to our 
marriage that she appears unaware of and then again...no biggie cause those
things are my affirmations and smiles.   She also has her values and skills and 
character assets and it's good to just pat her on the back from time to time and
enjoy her part of our union.   Are there things I feel that are missing?  As it is
said in our face to face meetings, "we are not perfect".   Nuff said huh?   The 
rough now is not even close to the rough when I was married to an addict and
then an alcoholic addict.  Sometimes it appears to be crazier but then I can 
reach back for that hidden ace I always have...the program.  There is nothing
so difficult that cannot be bettered and no unhappiness to great to be lessened.
First promise I ever heard in the program and the first to come true.  Its true!!

We have mellowed because of the program and what it has to offer us not
only with each other but with others also.   Damn there are so many willing 
victims out there I can use...NOT!   I stopped using years ago.   I get to do 
my own remembering today and my own forgetting.  I get to be reminded and
also do some of my own.   Turn around is fair play and that for me is the only 
kind of play I like in my relationships.    Yes finances is an emotional thingy...
mostly fear which I know alot about and have found many boundaries to and
still as long as I have emotions...fear will be one of them.   

She is not like me and I am not like her.  Sometimes the me in her I don't like 
at all and sometimes the she in me has me grope for the program like one 
legged man in a butt kicking contest.   We are not perfect and we are doing 
better than the one before.  We both have uncontested, no guilt, no shame,
other affairs going on.  Our relationship with our HP of choice and understanding.
We can't have a relationship together if we can't have that one best.  That's
another subject all in itself...LOL  Take what you like...leave the rest; change 
what you can and turn it all over.

Co-Dependency went out the door when I learned the definition and practice
of being helpful.   I guess not very far anymore.

(((((hugs))))) smile 

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~*Service Worker*~

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Seperate finances? Having seperate finances doesn't equal not loving someone. I know alot of people in program that have found having totally seperate finances is the only way they feel safe.



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WOW, you know what's funny about this whole "enabling" thing?  WE ALL DO IT!!  I just realized that my mom enables my dad, my AH enables his brother, who can't get his act together, I enable my dad...it's nuts.

Last night my AH came home after his hour couseling session.  I had filled his therapist in on what my therapist said.  This guy is ALSO our M/C so he should know.  Anyways, my AH came and put the next MC appointment right in the calendar...(wait, I did) CRAP CRAP, SEE, I did it again.  DAMN ME.  {shaking head}  Well he came home and told me right away about the next appointment and said a good bulk of their session was about him not taking reponsibility.

Now what?  Should I go to the MC session alone and not say anything?  He'll NEVER remember to put it on the calendar. 

WOW am I caught in a vicious circle or what?confuse

 

Oh, and my parents enabled me.  no



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~*Service Worker*~

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Gatting them sober has some good insight on the issue of enabling.  Why not get the book.

Maresie.

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