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All non-instinctive human behavior is learned. Instinctive would be breathing, eating, going to the bathroom, seeking shelter, a desire for companionship, and a drive to procreate. Pretty much everything else is learned.
So where have we learned to be normal? Most of us who grew up in alcoholic homes have no concept of what everybody else considers normal behavior and interaction. I think the rest of society - and perhaps we too - believe that once the problem is "cured" - i.e. the alcoholic stops drinking, or is removed - that we'll revert to "normal". Normal, what's that? Normal is taken for granted, as if it's instinctive, and that everybody knows how to behave. But everything we do as a civilized society is taught and learned.
When I was a kid, I had a bit of a problem with common courtesy. I really thought "please", "thank you", or even the slightest shred of consideration was a waste of time. My mom always admonished me if I didn't perform that ritual around other people, but I continued to be stubborn about it. Doing it just to make mom happy stuck in my craw. So why did I resist it so much?
I think I figured out why. Mom only insisted that I behave in a civil manner *around other people*. I was already used to treating *her* with disrespect. And she was my mother. If she wasn't deserving of respect, why would strangers be?
I think this is a classic example of how an ism gets passed on. Mom had already adapted to the disrespect and lack of consideration, as well as verbal abuse that comes from being married to an alcoholic. Children are naturally inconsiderate until they are taught to be otherwise - but the whole manners thing was presented to me as something to be used outside the family. And how can you discipline a child for only doing what dad does? Even if you do punish him, he's going to view it as a double standard.
Of course at some age I understood the purpose of civility - I taught myself the basics to survive. In my job, I worked with people and I had to get along with them. I cultivated my own style - unorthodox, blunt - in the business world it turned out to be an asset; customers expect patronizing BS, and are pleasantly surprised to get the blunt truth. But in the back of my mind, etiquette stuck in my craw.
My mom used phrases like, "you shouldn't behave that way in front of Mrs. Smith". She assigned the requirement to a third party; as a result, my response was "what makes Mrs. Smith so special?" That qualification - Mom reducing her own importance, and placing it on Mrs. Smith - completely changed the meaning of what she was telling me. The real message, and the one I'm sure she meant to convey, was "you shouldn't behave that way period". She unknowingly created a double standard with herself as the doormat. The only consideration for Mom was that I shouldn't embarrass her in front of Mrs. Smith.
Can anybody relate to this? I think a lot of us are like Mom. We reduce our own value to where we are less important than complete strangers. I know that even my bratty, obnoxious self of 8 years old, would have reacted very differently if mom had said "You will not talk to me that way".
My perspective on this is more in the center than most. I feel my own isms were fueled at least as much by my codependent mother as by my alcoholic father. I ended up a strange combination, and yes - when my alcoholic daughter acted out, I was more concerned about how it made me and my family look to outsiders - school, neighbors, etc - than how she was treating ME. I focused on what I was doing wrong as the horrible step-parent. I only recently acknowledged to my daughter that when she ran away (at age 12), it really hurt *me* because she was rejecting me, and her mother, and the life we tried to provide for her. When I made my amends to her, that was the eye opener - I wasn't just trying to do what was best for her, I was also reacting to that pain. It changed my whole perspective on my guilt. I didn't make her an alcoholic, I'm not responsible for what she went through, any more than I'm responsible for my parents' divorce, or my dad's death from alcoholism.
I had to create my own brand of normal. I can tell you, if you were to ask 100 of my closest family, friends, associates, and acquaintances if I'm normal, they'd all say no to one degree or another. But with a smile. Same answer you'd get from me. But I am normal... my normal today.
Those are deep realisations u had about the way you treated your mother & the way she set you up to treat her. Very interesting.
I became very rebellious of society as a whole as a teenager. For me it was about being honest & emotionally expressive. I also did not like what being "normal" in society meant. To me it was a death sentence ~ like all the rest of the walking zombies out there in denial. Denial of themselves, to just be free & say 'no mom & dad I dont want to be a lawyer, I want to be a tree forester' or whatever. I think we become afraid of disappointing our parents, so we just do what we think we're supposed to, instead of really defining who we are as individuals, going against our family's wishes or manipulations & society (b/c who wants to be a freak) and be true to ourselves. Well, I may not have followed my inner most desires for what I wanted to do or become in life but I still was a total outcast/freak in society. How could I have not been? In 1975 we were living in Houston (cattle country) and mom decided to become an ethical vegetarian. Kids at school looked at me like I was an alien.
Also, having been tested so many times for IQ, being "normal" to me meant u werent very intelligent & I was in special honor's classes with other gifted kids.
By the time I was sixteen, I had tried suicide, been in a psych hospital, got emanicpated, took my GED & went to college. Dropped that & went to work. Nothing about me was normal. Everyone I saw in society lied & didnt express their feelings maturely or healthily ~ I wanted no part of any of it.
I repalced normal with healthy a long time ago - normalcy would only be acheived in a schedule or routine.
Thanks for sharing your realisations & insights, very interesting. I hope to have kids one day & thinking about boundaries seems to be the most important thing for structure.
If I appear normal today at all, it is because I let go of being completely anti-social and began to embrace being a-social. I can use society & get along unnoticed quite well if it's my intention.
__________________
Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I can truly relate to all that you posted-even down to rejecting the outward signs of courtesty shown only to strangers but not practiced in the home. I even went so far as to reject sending any form of Birthday card or Christmas card because I did not WANT TO. I too lerned to survive in the Business world successfully because as you pointed out-The values there were different and I could have a great deal of options.
I learned hiw to be a truly compassionate, caring person by using the principles and the 12 Steps of AlAnon.
Today I send cards, I can feel empathy and compassion for people and love to treat people with courtesy and respect. That is a long way from where I was.
My FAMILY - wELL THEY DO SEE THE DIFFERENCE AND HAVE NOW STARTED TO AFFECTIONATELY CALL ME "AUNTIE MAME" tHAT IS A BIG IMPROVEMENT OVER WHAT THEY USE TO SAY ABOUT ME.
I had another thought on this reading your responses. When there is someone in our lives who routinely behaves as a doormat, we not only will abuse them but we will direct anger and frustration to the "doormat" that should be directed elsewhere.
This reminds me of an incident in my early sobriety, where it became crystal clear to me how my then-wife treated me. And she was not the alcoholic! I don't know if I've told this story before on here so forgive me if it's a re-run.
My wife and I had both seen people with CD player boom boxes. This was still in the early days of CD, and most boom boxes were cassettes. CD booms weren't available readily at all - but she indicated she wanted to get one. So, one Saturday we set out and I took her to the place I thought most likely to have one - a high-end stereo store I had dealt with many times, where I knew the guys, and I figured they were cutting edge. Well we get there, and they don't have a CD boom box... but the guy jots down some numbers, and proposes a small component system - amp, CD player, some bookshelf speakers. Kind of pricey. Well that wasn't what we were looking for, so I just said thanks anyway and we left.
No big deal right? Well, as soon as wife gets in the car with me, she starts in on how "my friends" were trying to rip her off, that wasn't what she wanted, etc... it was a total condemnation of *me* for daring to associate with these people who can't read her mind, and at least tried to offer a suggestion. Of course she said none of this to the people who had committed the perceived offense - it was all directed at me. My mind mulled over every possible defense - I was thinking how could I make her happy and sweet once again... where could I go to find her what she wanted. I didn't say a word though. She never let up in the 15 minutes it took to drive home. Yes, home. She didn't even realize where we were headed until I pulled up in front of the house (not parking, just stopping). She looked at me and said "aren't we going to look someplace else?" and I said "not today". I didn't say another word... she got out of the car and I drove away.
I think it actually shocked her that I stood up for myself. I didn't have any witty defense, or strategy to placate her - the overwhelming thought was, I don't want to be treated this way and I'm putting a stop to it. I dropped the bitch off and went on my way, to have a better day.
If only I could have kept it up. But I let her keep on hurting me 4 more years. When she laid the ultimate hurt on me - by leaving - it was another 5 years before I realized that she had no more power to hurt me. I think it was an email I got from her about something, she said "I don't want to cause you any more pain". I sent back a one-liner... "You're giving yourself too much credit"...LOL.
So no doubt, I was a doormat too. Sometimes doormats do dust themselves off, roll up, and roll away from the abuse.
Barisax
-- Edited by barisax on Wednesday 15th of April 2009 02:31:48 PM
Also, having been tested so many times for IQ, being "normal" to me meant u werent very intelligent & I was in special honor's classes with other gifted kids.
I was always told - especially by my mother - how intelligent I was. I don't know why she alone was almost obsessed with this. My dad was proud of me in his own way, but I don't remember him ever talking up my intelligence. It's part of what turned me into, as we say in AA, an "egomaniac with an inferiority complex". I had been branded smart, but every failure, every criticism made me feel stupid. I didn't WANT to be smart, I wanted to fit in, to be normal. To this day, I do not know my IQ. Mom would never tell me - I guess by making it a mystery, it would motivate me somehow. I dunno.
When I entered therapy in adulthood, one social activity my therapist suggested might be fun for me was to join MENSA. I almost fell out of my chair laughing. I just couldn't explain to her how utterly wrong, how utterly bad an idea that was for an egomaniac with an inferiority complex!
I thank God I am not too smart to stay sober, and to practice our twelve steps to the best of my ability. I know one person who is too smart to stay sober... she's an intellectual, too proud to believe in a higher power, too smart to work a program unless she understands and analyzes every aspect of it. She's so smart the only work she can find is as a stripper or bartender, which always leads to relapse. I don't know how smart I am truly, but I know I'm smart enough to think myself into drinking real fast, if given the opportunity. I am a certified, top-notch, black belt rationalizer and if I need an excuse to drink, you bet I could come up with one. Fortunately, I know this about myself and I know where to go to nip it in the bud. It works, it really does.
Yep, some of the brightest people I know have absolutely no emotional intellignece. I also know a few extremely Mensa level smart (is IQ over 140) alcoholics.
I too wanted to fit in. I also felt like there was mor eexpected of me, so when I "failed" in my first marriage & in life in general, it seemed so very heavy. I had so much to let go of, seperate from me & suppose I am still working on that. I no longer feel like afailure however, society could label me that way just b/c of attempting suicide ~ it's why I've worked so hard to simply be happy in my own skin & fighting society (in general) along the way.
-- Edited by kitty on Wednesday 15th of April 2009 03:18:48 PM
__________________
Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
I used to have a good idea what normal was and I strived for that. It was NOT what I had grown up with, that much I knew. But with experience comes change and now I am not sure I will ever attain my version of normal. But perhaps a new version of normal is going to appear, or what I have today IS normal.
It's funny because MY mother used to tell me ALL the time that this life we were living was NOT normal, NOT typical (cause of my drunk uncle and his friend living with us and my dad being gay and living with his lover) She really made me feel like a freak. And then when I acted like the freak she told me I was she didn't like me.
So, I knew I was destined to be NOT normal. Once I had kids, I SSOOOO wanted to be normal. To give them what I didn't have...normalicy. Failed miserably at that one, but hey, it builds character.
I learned along time ago that normal is not for me. And I'm ok with that. I learned normal from TV, from watching other families interact.
I am unique, quirky, loveable, by no means normal but I have incredible kids. What more is there in this life? Just for today,I'm me.
Great post Barisax, thanks for sharing your insights.
I have never had a real grip on normal and have come to believe that most people don't either. Normal is what normal is to them and them alone. Take what you like and leave the rest helps me to understand what is and isn't normal "to me". Having my head go up and down in understanding to another persons shared experiences indicates what has been or was normal to me at some time or another. Reacting to situations in an acceptable manner is normal "to me" while not doing that is "normally screwed up". If I get to make the call it will be different at times than when others make the call on what is or is not normal "to them".
Being in a group in a program of healing letting others help healing me and me participating in someone elses healing is not normal/usual/original for me. I am practicing abnormal behavior for a "loner" isolator depressant who is fear based and oppositional defiant personality. Being abnormal is a learned behavior for me. I like the consequences better than the consequences I got when behaving normally. I don't have to work so hard, duck all the time, look over my shoulder, run farther away when others get closer to me or threaten and violate others that get into my space and won't get out.
I was in an abnormal state tonight; in my home Al-Anon Family Group, Wednesday Night Turning Point meeting. I am better off for it...and now I am in my room, by myself, with my computer, thousands of miles away from others, yet finding a way to reachout, touch, helped, be helped getting mixed consequences. Normal/Ab- normal and okay with where I am at and what I am doing with whom I am doing it with. I get to decide...always. I think we all do. One of my abnormal emotions...gratitude. (((((hugs)))))
Barisax, I like what you said about the ex not having the power to affect you anymore. I am getting there. I really am and it took your story/post about the CD player for me to really realize this. I am healing. YAY! Thanks for writing about that, even if it was a repeat to some, it was not to me.
Doormats. Yeah, I know that. I am working on that one and probably will for the rest of my life. One of the things that my shrink and I just talked about yesterday is the fact that I can say: "ouch, what you just said to me hurt." Like when our bodies ache or are in pain, its a sign that something is not right. Thats my job. I need to let people know that they are hurting me so that they can know to stop. If I do not let them know, they do not know and that is not their problem, its mine. Its my responsibility.
Is any of this normal or not? I will be damned if I know. I lost track of normal a long long time ago...hugs, J.
Barisax, I like what you said about the ex not having the power to affect you anymore. I am getting there. I really am and it took your story/post about the CD player for me to really realize this. I am healing. YAY! Thanks for writing about that, even if it was a repeat to some, it was not to me.
I neglected to mention that "normal" was one of the X-wife's favorite words to use on me. As in "I am, you're not". When we met, it was our obvious eccentricities that attracted us to each other in the first place. It would have been clear to anyone that she was not normal, nor was I, nor were we a normal couple.
Apparently after I declared myself an alcoholic - which was when I got sober - she considered that an abnormality that was incompatible with her "relative normalcy". Funny, it wasn't a problem when I *was* drinking... LOL.
I should also mention, may have before, that she was physically "out of my league". Although I've seen fatter guys with cuter girls - it's still not very common. She was apparently cute enough to be hit on by other guys, which I was apparently oblivious to for quite some time - even while watching the guys line up to hit on her daughter when she hit her mid teens. During the relationship I never really felt like I was out of my league - lucky maybe - but not out of my league. She concealed a lot from me, and I was gullible. Now when I see it in a couple, I just cringe. Not long ago, a friend of mine got dumped by his trophy wife. I saw it coming - the way she had been treating him, and how he was not noticing. I guess everybody does things their own way, but I just wanted to scream out "just get it over with already!!!" I think that makes 4 times now I've seen a friend, with a wife "out of league", lose the wife to some young stud - and being blind-sided by it. And probably not the last time.
her dad) had nothing - lived in a very small trailer - had very poor work ethic - poor hygiene - overweight - poor manners - I could go on and on. I was attracted to him and saw his potential so it didn't matter. It never mattered to me. I would turn heads when I walked into a room but made it very clear to everyone that I was with him. He couldn't handle it. His insecurities consumed him - he cheated - lied - manipulated - and pretty much committed relationship self sabotage. His feelings of inferiority made him lash out and be abusive to maintain emotional control over someone he felt was light years apart from him.
So - the trophy wife doesn't always turn out the way you think. I don't believe there is a normal. I believe there just is .... life.
I guess I wasn't conscious enough to be jealous... LOL. I had my problems in my marriage, but I never ever suspected her of cheating on me. She did a pretty good job of convincing me that the co-worker was someone she *hated*... I didn't much like him either. But I didn't know at the time how much there was not to like... it seems pretty funny now in hindsight. But jealous of him, I would never be - I'd never, ever want to trade places with that loser. But, for quite some time the two of them pulled it off. In my entire life, it's the biggest ruse ever pulled on me, for the longest time. It still makes me feel stupid sometimes - probably would disqualify me from Mensa... LOL!!!
My (step) daughter was turning heads when she was 15. I remember just meeting her for lunch one day in a little bar/grill place. The guys heads at the bar reminded me of a row of cats watching a ball on a string.... I told her and her reaction was like, "nuh-uh... no way". Yes way. To this day, she doesn't really know how attractive she is. Not in a supermodel way - hard to describe. I can't really compare her to anyone else. Friends of mine -- middle age guys -- say "I can't put my finger on it, there's just something... cool... about her".
My granddaughter - the Drama Goddess - does not have that problem. She is almost 15, and she knows she's hot. Yeah, IN a supermodel way. No doubt about it. She's scared to death, and I think I would be too under the circumstances. When you are that attractive (or attractive in some other way - rich, famous, powerful) it must be nearly impossible to trust anyone, to know who your real friends are.
My wife-to-be (3 months away!) may not be a "trophy", but she sure is a gem. A real person who loves me the way I am, and cares for me in ways I never even thought possible. A companion for whatever life throws at us. I couldn't ask for more. But I had to grow up first to be ready for this gift. And I continue to pray for the guidance I will need to do my part, and give back to her as she as so freely given to me.
In my home my Mom taught us a different standard for the outside world then what we lived at home. She would always say "In the outside world, people won't love you and won't be patient with you like your famly is with you at home, so manners are more important with people who are not bound by family love.". It didn't mean that manners were NOT important at home, she meant that they are just more crucial outside the home.
That made a lot of sense to me and I understood that even though I could pinch my nose and say "YOU STINK" to my brother, that probably would not fare well if I did it at school to my classmates. My brother would likely forgive and forget the next day while we rode bikes, but my classmates would not.
So, even if things are dysfunctional at home, that does not mean that children cannot be taught to function in society, although it does take a great deal of intelligence to comprehend this situation and come up with an effective strategy as my mother did. Incidentally, my mother is a college educated professional so well equipped to cope well with the problems at home. I know college education isn't the cure all for everything, but having some good coping skills that you learn in college does help in life.
I hate to dissapoint people but there IS a normal!!! Of course there is a wide range in that normal, but there definatly is a normal. If you behave outside of that range of normal, for instance, wearing pajamas to a job interview just because you want to be comfortable, no matter how stylish and expensive those pajamas are, you probably won't get the job, and people will likely think you are mentally ill.
Social norms are important and we ALL must learn them to function effectively in society. I think that is the key word to know if you are "normal", that you are able to function effectively in the world. Can you interview for and get a job? Once you get that job can you keep it? Can you live on your own and pay your bills and shop and cook for yourself? Can you start and maintain a friendship? If you can function normally, have a normal life, but are a bit eccentric and perhaps wear pajamas to wall mart (as I do occasionally, LOL) then you are within normal range.
It is socially acceptable in my area to wear modest pajamas to wallmart, I would say about 10% of people do and I am seldom the only one in Micky Mouse flannel pants, but I know not to wear them to work so I still am normal.
What a lot of people don't get is that there is a wide range in normal and that wide range allows for individuality.
I think it is a harmful message to say there is no normal, to me that is part of healing from living with addiction, you learn social norms and to function within them. No more "crazy" life.
Living with an A made me think that is THEIR mantra, there is no normal. They like to make the rules, the egomaniacs that they are, and you better fall into line or they will have a tantrum that would put a two year old to shame.
An example is when my A would go to a concert an hour late, walk in DURING the performance, then get up and walk out in the MIDDLE of it. I would try to point out how rude that was, to at least wait until intermission, but the A would insist they did nothing wrong that "professionals" (performers) "know" that the audience has "important things to do" and may need to leave in the middle of it.
It never occurred to the A that people with important things to do simply don't go to the concert and behave so inappppropriatley. No, the A thought they were entitled to make up their own rules for social conduct and are not bound by commonly held rules for social behavior.
The disapproving looks from the staff, ushers, and audience meant nothing to the A. Now THAT is "abnormal". I have taught my children that you know when you are behaving normally when you are able to function and don't call attention to yourself and do not attract undue attention. This is something I have had to teach them after spending time with the A who is NOT normal and doesn't care to cause commotions in public.
Ironically I am aware of the fact that most long tern hard core alcoholics also suffer from some form or another of mental illness. I know that is true in my "A's" case as they have been diagnosed with narcissism. This condition can be very debilitating as they don't understand the importance of social norms. I alternatively feel sorry for and envy the A, LOL. I feel sorry when they are acting out in public and drawing attention to themselves with frowns and giggles, but envious when they are nto fazed by it at all. I wish I could commit a social faux paux like drop a jar of gravy in the store and make a mess (in my micky mouse Pj's no less) and have to tell the manager and apologize and TOTALLY NOT CARE or be embarrassed, sigh.
Still, I guess my embarrassment is a protection, it has helped me learn what normal is and given me the incentive to behave normally.
Oh, and the looks and intelligence thing, I can relate to that. My A is extremely attractive and I know that is why they get away with so much crazy behavior and still function for the most part. He has it all, looks, height, muscles, perfect teeth, and it goes a LOOOONNNNGGG way. I don't think the ushers would allow him to sneak in and ruin so many performances if he looked like a stinky ushaven short sloppy homeless guy. He intimidates most people and gets away with a WHOLE lot that i don't see others get away with. It hasn't helped him any in the long run. He isn't going to look like Adonis forever and when he gets old and wrinkly I don't know how he is going to function. He probably won't care...
Social norms are important and we ALL must learn them to function effectively in society. I think that is the key word to know if you are "normal", that you are able to function effectively in the world. Can you interview for and get a job? Once you get that job can you keep it? Can you live on your own and pay your bills and shop and cook for yourself? Can you start and maintain a friendship? If you can function normally, have a normal life, but are a bit eccentric and perhaps wear pajamas to wall mart (as I do occasionally, LOL) then you are within normal range.
The answer to all of those questions is Yes, except for pajamas in Walmart. Although I have done other similar things. I don't consider myself normal.
Remember, what's normal in one society might be a crime in another.
But you are correct in that normal is a learned behavior, and it is taught by the environment - thus, the learned normal is going to be the one appropriate for the environment. Which is why it's interesting how those of us who grew up in alcoholic homes managed to miss so much of it! I was exposed to it, but much of the so-called normal behavior felt dishonest to me. I really thought common courtesy was a form of dishonesty, because in order to practice it I had to go against my natural impulse.
Today I do things constantly that go against my natural impulse, and I think of it as growth rather than dishonesty. I can listen to someone without interrupting even if every fiber of my being wants to scream that they're wrong. It's not dishonesty, it's a choice not to act in that moment. The world isn't deprived if it doesn't hear my opinion minute by minute. I'm not deprived if I don't shout it minute by minute. I'm still very opinionated, but I realize it's a game. Sometimes you can gain the advantage in a game with a moment of silence.
I really don't know if it's any different for people who consider themselves normal. I don't know if their natural state of being is to be polite and considerate, or if they have simply been taught and practiced to be otherwise, to where it is second nature and they may not be aware of any impulse to the contrary. But for me, the impulse to the contrary will always be with me. I don't want to forget where I came from, because I'm not cured. Each and every time, it's a choice.
