The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I am curious, not being a poop. Really am questioning this.
Christmas is a man made holiday,a socalled religious holiday celebrated by some Christians, not all. Not saying socalled to mean anything than some call it as.....
AA and Alanon are not to support any religion. So why is this appropriate?
We would not celebrate Jewish holidays on here, or Nissan 14 or any other religious holiday of different denominations.
I LOVE the act of cards for the people that are helped by Johns and others efforts.
I honestly do not believe it is appropriate to do this in honor of a socalled Christian holiday, by AA or Alanon.
We have Jews, muslims, budhists can't spell that one, JW's, yes there are others besides me, haha, and more.
Would love to hear thoughts on this by Alanon and AA rules, not emotions. I am not trying to upset anyone,really am curious as ever.
I don't have an answer for your question but it did bring a thought to my mind ... my reply to the card post is below. Why should it only be at certain times?
I am in on this too. I love the energy I see in people around this time of year. Random acts of kindness like I see at Christmas are beautiful, sometimes the out of the blue kindness is even more so. And after reading Deb's post .... is there a way that I could send a a thinking of you or inspiring nonreligious card at other times of the year? Perhaps someone who knows the people's frame of mind could decide who needs a boost at any given time?
Whether or not a person chooses to celebrate Christmas, for what it is. Whether or not we are members of AA or Al-Anon or any other organization, religion affiliaton, etc ad infinitem...the FACT remains the the holiday season from Thanksgiving through New Years is, at least in the USA (that I can speak of anyway since I haven't lived in other countries) is traditionally a time of togetherness with family and friends.
If you are alone, or away from your family and friends at this time of year, ESPECIALLY if you are say some of the people new to recovery staying in one of John's wonderful houses away from loved ones, it can be a very sad and depressing time. Getting messages from anyone at this time is special and act of kindness that can change lives.
I whole-heartedly agree with the "way wait til Christmas to do a kind act" idea. But why does an AA or Al-Anon person doing an act of kindness during an obviously trying time of year, when the person doing the act or receiving the act may or may not be a "Christian" have to be in any way seen as inappropriate?
My serious answer to your serious question...from my humble perspective...don't let getting caught up in the semantics of program "doctrine" cloud the idea of doing some thing nice for someone ANYTIME.
It is NEVER inappropriate for a member of AA or Al-Anon to reach out the hand of love and kindness.
But why does an AA or Al-Anon person doing an act of kindness during an obviously trying time of year, when the person doing the act or receiving the act may or may not be a "Christian" have to be in any way seen as inappropriate?
Because we are endorsing a religious holiday. It was not send a card. It was send a xmas card.
I know Diva has talked about her Jewish religion and was met with problems.If I sent a xmas card, I would be celebrating a pagan holiday, which to me is very sinful.
As far as facts, during this time,there are more murders, suicides, robberies and many other horrendous acts.
It is NEVER inappropriate for a member of AA or Al-Anon to reach out the hand of love and kindness.
I agree completely, this was not the question. As far as a trying time, I know from experience, every day is a trying time for most all in recovery.
If it were send a card now or any other time, that would be appropriate. But to ask AA or Alanon members to send a specific religions holiday card is supporting a religion.
That is the point.
It is this worlds downfall, or one of them, to say if it feels good do it even if it is wrong.
I would say and agree with you and Jen, sending a card, gifts whatever is a wonderful thing to do, to help our brothers and sisters in recovery. But to attach it to a certain religions holiday is wrong.
Example, if I said please send the guys, (is it just men?)a card or gift for Nissan 14 celebrating the last supper Jesus had on earth, would that be appropriate?
Or Diva said please send a Hannaku card for the guys on that Jewish holiday...
Does that help ya see my concern?
Being in the inside, lots of pms and lots of people being told to leave their religion off the message board, makes me feel strongly about this.
I soooooo appreciate your thoughts. It made me think and made me see even more what makes it something we need to express in a different way.
Please send a card or gifts to the people in recovery in support of them and of Johns and others giving so much to help, is better said.
If we only applied our doctrine for specific situations, it would be the end of our program.
Let us remember that during the holidays, it can be the most dangerous time for relapse. Because at this time when everybody gathers to celebrate, in whatever way they choose, it can be a harsh reminder that people are alone or may feel extra lonely. It's one of the reasons why AA and Alanon hold extra meetings, and special events during this time of year. I have been to plenty of Alanon and AA Christmas parties. Yes, technically we are not suppose to endorse any religion. Having said that, the reality is that this is the time of year when people are lonely, scared, and don't reach out when they need to. I'm not just talking about addicts. We do the same. Practicing random acts of kindness should be done all year long. This is the time of year when we to go the extra mile.
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
First off, no one said it had to be a Christmas card....I find the term Xmas offensive.
Secondly, I ask you again, why can't it be this time of year?
Some people use "landmarks" of the year to do something. I "celebrate" Valentine's day by cutting back my rose bushes. Easy for me to remember because of the association.
Why not look at it that way...because you get to choose how you look at things. You can take what you like and leave the rest.
Send anyone any kind of card you like Debilyn. It is the thought and message that is important.
If something is "sinful" to you....don't do it!
Take what you like and leave the rest.
You started out your post with "I am curious, not being a poop" so you knew even then that this was potentially a controversial question yet even though al-anon recommends "not engaging in any controversy" you choose to broach the topic anyway, correct?
That is your choice, that is the freedom you have. Just as anyone is free to discuss what they choose.
I don't understand the need to draw controversy around an act of kindness which everyone is free or not free to participate in .
I respect that you are just trying to understand and have every right to question something you think weakens al-anon.
When something I hear in an Al-anon meeting or on this board goes against my "religious beliefs" I don't set about to fix the "misconception" I perceive them to have....or I don't say that is wrong. I hold my beliefs as mine and allow them to have theirs.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything...naturally, since they can't.
I did not mean, by the way to apply our doctrine only to specific situations, just the opposite.
Applying doctrine means we are tolerant of ALL. Correct?
I perfectly understand what you are saying Debilyn. I just absolutely disagree and do not see that anyone's asking for someone to consider taking the time to send someone a card during a trying time of the year to be in anyway controversial or corrupting the al-anon program, anymore than I see when any member of this program asks for prayers when they are in pain or have a sick loved one, etc, to be wrong. Though I know we have members who don't pray. So just because some people in al-anon don't pray, should all of us stop? Should we, in the context of this board, delete every post that asks for prayers?
Al Anon has taught me to be who I am. Not to change myself to make someone else comfortable.
I assume John asks us to send "Christmas cards" because John may be Christian. If I don't agree with it, I don't participate, or I would send something that was honest for me to send. I let John be who John is. I'll be who I am.
I happen to believe some of the deletions here have been out of line. If you can't be who you are in an al-anon fellowship, where can you??!!
In al-anon, I've learned to take what I like and leave the rest... inside the fellowship and out in "real life."
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The prayer isn't for Higher Power to change our lives, but rather to change us.
This time of year is so fraught with what is politically correct, inappropriate, etc. I always hate to see these issues brought up because we are such a melting pot of beliefs, philosophies, traditions. I fully agree with the "take what you want and leave the rest". Just because something is asked of me doesn't mean I have to do it. I am and have always taught in my family that we have "religious Christmas" and we have "Santa Claus Christmas". I distinguish that when I read holiday stories to my grandson and try in a simple way to explain our Christian tradition and belief to him through the "religious" stories. I think this is one of those "no-win" issues. Look at stories across this great country where cities and counties have been sued for having "religious" displays. How sad. I am not offended by any other religion's celebration and I certainly do not want to offend anyone through my own beliefs. But I think what we are doing here on this board is just expressing the viewpoint which is so prevalent in our country right now. Again, if one doesn't believe in celebrating this holiday, please do not. For those who do, wonderful. We can all be who we are and still be OK so long as we don't try to persuade others we are the only ones RIGHT. As for me, I will gladly send the cards and with them my hopes and prayers that the recipient will be healthy and recovering and progressing. I appreciate the thoughts behind this project and feel pretty sure that the recipients will be happy to get the cards.
I think if anyone was going to relapse, they're going to do it regardless of whether they get cards or not. Imagine all those cards arriving. Now imagine someone there who doesn't celebrate that holiday, perhaps being jewish or muslim (as mentioned in other posts), and that someone doesn't receive any card appropriate to their particular holiday celebration. So now that someone can sit and stew in the thinking "thats all they care about...the christmas celebrators, not me." Admit it, that would be typical A thinking, yes? So I can see where this outpouring of holiday specific cards could be damaging to others. A general "thinking of you" card removes all those possible outcomes and makes it appropriate for any receiver regardless of sex, creed, religion, etc. etc... right? Just my 2 cents worth of thinking.
Luv, Kis
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
I can understand the question. Being Jewish I asked my workplace when I was at Kohl's why we didn't have Hannukkah stuff, and I was told that it wasn't economical. I thought that was bizarre. I was like "Y'all have 1 day of Christmas; we have 8 days of Hannukkah; tell me again it's not economical?" But for me the sentiment of cards really needs to be extended to the whole year round. When i was in the psychiatric hospital in 7/2005, it was an incredibly isolating and lonely experience, and, had the staff not pressured me, I wouldn't have even told my sponsor, I was that ashamed. I'm so greatful I did, because she was able to rally the recovery community around me, and I was able to use your strength where I had none. So for me, the idea of sending cards to individuals who are in long term care facilities is well thought. However, what I think, personally, needs to happen is that more of us need to sign up to bring meetings to institutions; purchase literature for those that are in institutions; sponsor people in institutions; and treat those there as the suffering. I never understood the logic of Christmas and Hannukkah cards; why would you renew a relationship 1x per year when there are 12? For me, the card just doesn't do it. Giving your time and energy does.
I brought it up as a concern to newcomers who may see it as a group supporting a certain religious holiday.
I support it 100%,and Karilynn is very correct, it is a very,very hard time of year for everyone.
My family used to have huge celebrations. Never a drama. Then we became a religion that does not celebrate holidays. But we still got together lots.
This time of year is horribly hard for me, my first deceased husbands birthday my mother born in Nov, died in Nov, all my family has died, my AH went crazy, no more family get together as we always had in Nov. as we all had the days off, the last time, mother was dieing in my arms.
I do relate. I do believe it is a wonderful, joyous, time for people who celebrate it. I used to!
Out of respect I do my best not to bring up any religion here. If I do, I own it. Saying it is a sin to me is NOT personal to anyone else. It is MY experience,my own belief. Does not bother me to be hated for it either. I commended Karilynn for remembering and bringing it up. She of all people has to be a raw, person and to be so thoughtful of others shows the kind of person she is.
Alanon is not always comfortable as we all know. I love it because we are very careful of each others feelings and beliefs.We learn from controversy, and controversy does not have to be rude, or hurtful. My belief is to love everyone, we may not love what ones does, but we love the person. We have no idea what they have been through. Ok I won't say anymore. Just thank you to those who responded as it strengthens us to be able to get together and discuss important Alanon beliefs. All in love,debilyn
I see your point Debilyn, but I am not opposed to sending cards. Those who feel CHristmas cards are not appropriate might do what I do. I send cards that say, "Season's Greetings", or "Best wishes for the season". The recipient, whether religious or not, gets a bright and happy card. IF they consider it a CHristmas card, that's fine.
I think we must relax a little bit. AlAnon should not make an issue one way or the other about sending Christmas cards. The cards are not coming from AlAnon; they are being sent from one person to another for the purpose of extending a warm greeting on a holiday. If I send you a "Happy Channukah" card, I am not attempting to convert you to Judiasm. Nor am I touting my faith. I am just wanting you to enjoy my holiday.
Good question Debilyn.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
When questions like this arise, I look to the Traditions.
Al-Anon Tradition 10 provides that: The Al-Anon Family Groups have no opinion on outside issues; hence our name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
For me, that means that Al-Anon as a whole and my home group would not send out Christmas (or any other holiday) cards because it is an "outside issue."
I am free to send out Christmas cards on my own if I choose to do so.
I do not see that sending Christmas or holiday cards is a problem for MIP. This issue has come up before relating to posts that are not Al-Anon--MIP tends to cherry-pick from the Traditions and oftentimes isn't consistent with its policy on issues such as this. This board is not an Al-Anon Family Group. I am not sure, but I don't believe that it is approved by WSO as an AFG. So, MIP is free to do as it wishes without implicating the Traditions.
Personally, I think it is a great idea. Folks in early recovery are oftentimes desperate for support and encouragement--especially during the holidays. A card may mean the world to someone who has yet to reconcile with his/her family and who may feel alone in the world.
Yours in Recovery,
SLS
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
I was once married to someone jewish. At the time one of the only "healthy" things we did was to celebrate all the holidays. I'd love to keep on doing that. I certainly don't have any feelings about anyone celebrating anything because its so hard for me to celebrate anything at all.
Argh! Religion and politics. Always "iffy" and controversial subjects. Personally, I wish the "politically correct" would vanish. Be careful what you say, be careful what you do, be careful what yard ornaments you display (it may offend your neighbor). GEEEEZ!!!
The bottom line is...It's ALL ego!! If it wasn't for ego, why would anyone be offended? I don't subscribe to any manmade religion or ritual. Wars are fought over religions!! People kill in the name of peace. Craziness! It makes no sense whatsoever to me.
It's easier for me to believe HP lives in and is a part of every living thing, not HP is "there" and I am seperated because I am "here". What the energy of all these living things (mentally) believe, say or do from a spiritual aspect is up to them. It changes nothing. For me, HP's energy still radiates through each one.
In a sense I feel AA and Alanon made a bit of a mistake when it didn't use the term "HP" in EVERY bit of text. Much of the "God" stuff, The Lord's Prayer at meetings etc. are pretty much like "say one thing, do another". Leaving people puzzled.
I don't consider myself a Christian (gasp!!) in the normal sense of the word. Some people are even offended by that! Like I don't have that right ? My biggest question is Why does anyone care? Seriously! We are brothers and sisters, not only in our little Alanon world but universally. What a concept!! Love when you want to love, give when you want to give, accept always.
Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace ~John Lennon~
-- Edited by debilyn at 11:30, 2008-12-12
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
I'm with Christy! Why can't everyone just get along? I too have had posts deleted because they MIGHT be construed the wrong way or GOD FORBID offend someone (can I say god?)!!! I also agree with glad lee that some deletions have been out of line but I also haven't volunteered my time to scan through every post and be a moderator so again I have nothing to say about the matter. If you want to send a card send whatever card you want and if you don't then don't. Seems pretty simple. Be kind, don't judge, don't allow minutia to offend you. Personally, I'm more offended by the contrast of 350 million dollar a year CEO's and homeless families living on the street in the winter.
I tend to agree with Christy about the use of God in our literature, but also understand that it is kind of the language of the time. It is often used for a lack of a better word(HP?). Honestly, I even do it myself. I say god sometimes when trying to et a point across, even though I do not believe in a "God". We all just do the best we can, right? Progress, not perfection.
I will be sending cards.
In recovery,
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Being a Pharmacist most of my collegues are either Muslim, Hindu or Jewish. I am in the minority, being a Christian.
I have asked most of my fellow pharmacists if they celebrate the holiday season, and have been told that most do. They have found the Santa Claus tradition to be very fun for their children. We do in fact have "Christmas parties" at our individual stores, and do decorate our stores for "The Holidays" This is not found to be offensive by any of my fellow pharmicists.
While Al-Anon does not support and organized religion per say, I agree with Karilynn, that the "celebrating" that is done during this holiday season, can cause a lot of pain for our members. I personally choose to call this this "Christmas" season, but I understand that there are many who belong to other religions who choose to call it "The Holiday Season" or choose not to celebrate it at all.
I also agree with Christy that the "Politically Correctness" that we have all been asked to subscribe to has gotten way out of hand.why can't we all just agree to get along and allow everyone to do as they please during this season without making judgements one way or the other.
Just putting in my 2 cents worth.
Love,
Claudia
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A person's a person no matter how small --Dr Suess
But why does an AA or Al-Anon person doing an act of kindness during an obviously trying time of year, when the person doing the act or receiving the act may or may not be a "Christian" have to be in any way seen as inappropriate?
.
would vanish. Be careful what you say, be careful what you do, be careful what yard ornaments you display (it may offend your neighbor). GEEEEZ!!!
