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Ok people, it's me again....I'm not sure if I have a question or just need to be heard. My husband is a recovering A but his new drug of choice is his adult daughter. We had about the millionth discussion about her and him last night. She treats him like cold leftovers, all the while thinking she is a great daughter.
Just this year, we gave her a crib, mattress & bedding for her baby shower (she then changed her mind and wanted one that was $150 more, which I said I would not support that, so we just kept it at a mere $600), then we sold her my car for $1500 under it's value and delivered it to her (she lives 5 hours away) sparkling clean, full of gas and 4 brand new tires in the back (my husband wanted to give her even more $ off), she then announced she was coming with her husband, baby and teen step-daughter to spend Christmas with us, so even though she only communicates with her Dad and treats me like a big zero, I agreed and tried to make a nice holiday of it. I cleaned, shopped, wrapped, cooked, everything. Her thanks was to privately ask her father why I was so "mean" to him. (I was short of patience because I was absolutely exhausted.) My husband then forked over $350 to get her husband's car on the road (even though he drives drunk.) After that she asked for $4000 and a co-sign on her mortgage, which we were unable to do (fortunately), but which my husband would have done if we had the dough. Her mother and step-father gave her $50,000 and co-signed the remaining $150,000, which she was happy to tell her father, thus feeding the competition between the parentals. So....for father's day this year Daddio got a phone call at 4 PM and for his 65th birthday last week he got a phone call at 5 PM, no cards, no gifts, just a phone call. He would like to give her a housewarming gift for her new place now.
So my challenge is to keep steady on my path, try to reign in my judgement, jealousy and resentment and let them have their relationship. (This, as you can tell from the tone of this post is proving to be an enormous challenge for me.)
I cannot quite figure out how to handle the money thing, because it's not just his money, it's OUR money. I figure with everything, including the meals he pays for when they see eachother we have spent something like $3000 on her this year. My own daughter who treats my husband like a daughter should is treated like a second class citizen--there would never be $3000 available for her, let me tell ya! There are resentments and problems created throughout the family because of these inequities.
Now, unlike an addiction, he isn't going to go cold turkey on his only child. Nor would I want that. I would just like her to get a sense of responsibility about her own life. She is 30 with a husband and baby and good job. You know what I hate? Guilt and pity and all the trouble those evil twins cause.
If people have ideas, please send them along. I'm at a loss. Recently, in an email, since that's the only way she will communicate with me, I told her that her recitation of her life's problems to her Dad was so painful to him, and that he was unable to resist advising her (which she responds to by sharply telling him she doesn't want his advice, just his unconditional love) so if she doesn't want this cycle to continue, she should save her stories for her sponsor. I received an answer full of cursing, sarcasm and yelling. Then about a week later, I apologized for my tone and tried to let her know that I wanted the best for her and her baby and I was seeing my own life flash before my eyes in her and that's what precipitated my email. I ended by sayingagain that I was sorry for the tone of the email. There has not been a response to it. She will just act like nothing ever happened instead of saying, you know, "thanks for the apology. This is a hard situation on everyone for sure. I'm sorry for the tone of mine, too," or something like that. Then the onus is on me to paste on a smile and carry on. I feel like I would like to get a divorce from my husband just to get away from this entire crazy mess and have some peace. It's hard (as you all know) to be second fiddle to an addiction.
Hi , Minnehaha, well it sounds like you have a whole bunch of issues going on, but its not that complicated. I know you see the enabling thats going on between your husband and his daughter, which puts you in a precarious position. You don't say how long you have been married to the A. You are in a difficult situation because she is not your daughter, yet your allowed to have boundaries with her and your husband and your part of the money. Your husband does enough to enable her, but you don't have too enable both of them. You don't have to take her abuse either. In Al-Anon we believe in the hands off approach. Time to let go and let God. You will feel so much better. Luv, Bettina
I agree with Bettina - boundaries. Set 'em and stick to 'em. Let your husband know how you feel, without the undertone of bitterness, and set limits. If she is coming to visit, remove yourself by going out with a girlfriend for the afternoon or go to a movie. That way, you don't have to refuse to see her, just be absent. It's his relationship, not yours. It sounds like you want to have the "Hallmark moments" with her, and by the sounds of it, that ain't happening. So don't try to force it. Just know what your limits are. His relationship shouldn't revolve around money. She's a big girl, and should be standing on her own two feet at this point... IMHO>
Thanks for your reply, Bettina. (nice name, by the way) I have been married for 10 years. She was 20 when we got together. I think a large part of the trouble has been that he DOES NOT want me to set any limits and when I do, I'm the villain. For example, this year it's unlikely that she will want to come for the holidays. But if she did, I would go to my daughter's and leave my husband to handle the holidays with her on his own. This would be my way of making a boundary. Because I guarantee you, my daughter will not join us this year after being taken advantage of last time either. So what would happen here is my husband would have a fit, want us to show a nice wholesome family picture for the holidays, which my absence would clearly not do, and if I stick to my guns, he will extract his pound of flesh by making it hard between me and my own daughter by not participating.
My husband, BTW, is currently the sole financial support of us. So he thinks it's "his" money. In our checking account and savings account there are reasonably significant amounts of money, considering he makes a 6 figure income. In my accounts there are a total of less than $100. When I asked for a monthly allotment of personal money he hit the ceiling. I am in the process of getting a job, but frankly I think this situation is not one of a caring, sharing marriage. Each with their own money, bills etc. I would prefer to pool the money and pay bills out of it, with each having their own share of personal money to do with as they wish. Then if he wants to buy her stuff, he can do it with his own money. End of argument, right?
And you are right--he enables her, I enable him. Bleah. And you are 100% on target with the Let Go and Let God approach. I just have to keep my sticky, know-it-all hands off of both of them. Any ideas on the money thing or the revenge scenario?
Stariana, (nice moniker, also) I think we were writing at the same time. Thank you for your reply. Please see what I said because it's almost a reply to yours.
I was outside doing yard work and thinking that I am like an A in the way that I am just beating on myself about not being more on top of my program and more enlightened and because I'm not, I have these poor consequences in my life. Yet I continue to obsess. Makes me sad.
The A who I was with had a mother who was self absorbed demanding and totally cold. A few years ago she got married right out of the blue, one minute she was a widow, next minute married. Before then every single holiday she demanded and demanded and demanded the A be present all day all night and more. There were no compromises, she wanted him and that was that. And of course he always complied no matter what I wanted to do, say, or did.
Part of the A's demise was that he was working around the clock on a job (he was at least working then). His mother, after having stalled for months and not packed anything, decided that she needed his help night and day to get packed and move with her new husband. Both of them are retired, both of them are pretty well off (they are not destitute by any means). That pressure of working around the clock and then going to help his mother night in night out for weeks put him over the edge. I stood by and let it happen because by that time I was in al anon. For me that was such a huge achievement. I said nothing, did nothing and let him burn himself into the ground. He became ill and burned out soon thereafter and quit work, became homeless and more. He went over an edge and didn't come back. I know full well now that the edge was always there and the A was going to fall off it sooner rather than later. All my interventions, pleading, rescuing did nothing to stop that. I know it never did.
By then in al anon was polite to the mother (I hated her guts there is no other way to put it) I had a lot of feelings about her and her treatment of her son. I got into none of it with them. I talked about it with others. I said nothing to him or her about it. I let it go on right in front of me. I did not step in. I was polite, friendly cordial and civil. I was not able to do that before then. There is no way they could pull me into their relationship anymore.
I tread very carefully with dealing with his mother. There were social occasions I did not go to. I was not up to it. Nevertheless when his mother descended on us for 4 days, took our bed, ate all our food, demanded to go out to dinner, I was polite, cordial, said nothing. For me that was huge, a real step in the right direction of not being over involved. Believe me I had many many feelings about the mother and still do. I stopped being over invovled in his life about his mother for quite a while after years of railing, trying to set limits, being envious, being upset, being fed up, trying to make him "see" his mother.
My own boundaries and my ability to be civil were so key to me just the beginning of learning to take care of me and work a program here.
Believe me I have tremendous feelings about his mother, his relaitonship with her and her entitlement. I just chose not to act them out anymore. I chose to stop trying to get him to see "her". He hasn't as far as I know but I make a big point of not knowing. Without al anon, I would still be remonstrating with him from dusk to dawn. I let that relationship with his mother ruin so much for me, every Christmas, every holiday, all kinds of things.
When the A became homeless I called his mother and asked her to help. Of course she refused. She asked me not to call again I didn't. I am so proud of that. Before al anon I would have been pulling my hair out and begging people to help him. With Al anon when people said no I took it that they meant it and I did not contact them again. That is hard but a reality.
The last time I spoke to the A he brought up his mother. He asked me not to call her. I said (proudly but calmly) that I had not called her in months since she asked me not to call her. For me that was so huge. My boundaries were not there before and I was hopelessly overinvolved with his life. The A invited me to be over involved in his life now I am not. I choose not to be because it makes me ill. Al anon helped me to stop that.
As you can see nothing but nothing changed between the A and his mother. What changed was me. I could not in any way shape or form influence their relationship, not matter what I did, no matter what I sacrificed, no matter how I obsessed. So I changed me. I changed and I felt better.
For me now that is enough. Before I would have gladly sacrificed myself to being a pool of obsession, frustration and fear rather than admit I had absolutely no control over others.
Yow, Marsie, I was nearly in tears reading your post. Especially after everything, she asks you not to call her. Lovely woman. Charming.
This is just how I feel about the daughter. And after 10 years of "I'm not ready to make a change," and "what do you want me to do, never see her again?" it is complete foolishness to think he will ever change. I feel bad for my husband because his son died in his sleep at the age of 33--that was 4 years ago. So the emphasis on his daughter is that much more intense. And you can bet your bippy she knows this. And uses it to her advantage. If anyone could see how cruel she was to him during his funeral, how she told him it was his fault her brother disintegrated and died, how she lied and got married without inviting him (because she said he was drinking -he wasn't) I guess they would not think her so very lovely either.
But honey, if you can hold your space and deal with people like you describe, I can too and you give me hope and inspiration. Thank you. And I agree, I thoroughly dislike this young woman. She is selfish, mean spirited, and rude, not to mention sloppy, loud and phony. But beneath my revulsion, I honestly do care about her welfare and hope that she finds peace and happiness. I just don't want her in my living room until she does!!
And my husband and his daughter DO NOT want my involvement. It's as if I walked into a room where they were doing something they shouldn't have--like two little naughty kids--and they turn around and look at me with big eyes that say, "get out of here, you have no right to be here." And for all intent and purposes, they are right.
I see now that I let myself get sucked in and then abused by both of them so that they don't have to change their own relationship. It's just hard, as you know, to see someone you love being kicked around. And then they come running to you for a kiss on their boo-boo and a bandaid. And you want to go out and kill the perpetrator. Yup. That would be me! Well, I told my husband that he simply cannot talk to me about anything negative about her any more. She gets a promotion at work, she gets a new sofa--fine--anything else, no. We'll see if he can stick to it. And if I can, also. Curiosity, in this case, is killing the cat.
A few years ago we were living in the south and sitting on our front porch and this guy drove by in a pickup with the tailgate down and a dog loose in the back. It was a pitbull. Well, the dog fell out and the guy slammed on his brakes and went around and started yelling at the dog and picked him up by the collar and went to throw him into the back of the truck again, except his missed and the dog slammed ribs first into the back of the tailgate, yelping. At that point, without thinking I ran outside and started shouting at the guy. It wasn't until he got into his truck and drove off that I noticed he was like a bodybuilder, 3 times my size. But it was just an instinct to protect that poor animal. I could have gotten myself killed! I guess this situation is not that different.
I'm sorry for your A because you sound like an exceptional person and he doesn't have you by his side anymore, but I'm glad for you that you grew through this into the strong person you became. I will remember what you said the next time I decide to become the "enlightened savior"--thank you for metaphysically holding my hand through this.
Actually I do think the exA and his mother and the rest of his family very much wanted me in there over involved. Some of the invitations are very subtle. The fact that he came back to me after 7 plus years of claiming I was not invited and asked me if I had spoken to his mother (again) was proof of that.
Blurring of boundaries is very subtle somethings like a bulldozer the next.
Al anon doesn't require you to be a super hero. None of us do this program perfectly. I don't have the A around anymore - guess what I'm still codependent, with or without him. I have my moments.
The A did not appreciate me,codependent or not codependent. I don't believe he is the only person who was at fault in the relationship anymore.
I can certainly to this day justify acting out because people are out of line. I don't like some of my roommates where I currently live either. The issue is that I can be cordial and civil even when peope are absolutely insane around me and provoking me to the hilt. I have to remember that daily.
Boundaries are tremendously hard for me. The joy for me is in being willing to look at what can I do. What's reasonable. My therapist confirms my expectations are way way way off. Coming down to earth is pretty hard.
Minn, you asked about the money situation, I cant advise you, just give you my experience. You didnt say if your able to work, you mentioned getting a job. I always supported myself, I always had a back up plan. I kicked the A out last year and would not let him back in ,he was way out of control, he got an apartment, and I didnt ask him for any money for the condo we live in, I was able to take over, I just wanted him gone. Our situation has always been to pool our money, We still do that, he moved back in, but when he got his dui recently, was arrested, he already drank $3000.00 dollars worth and I made him pay the Atty , which was 5000. out of his savings that I allowed him when we separated, I put the money that was in our joint savings, I took it all and put it in my name. He is not going to drink or waste away the rest of our savings. My husband gives me most of his money because he knows Im a better money manager. He is a waiter so he drank from his change and he works in a Hotel, free booze. Everybody's situation is different, he is sober for the first time in 26 years. Since your husband is an A, his daughter could very well be an A in the making or she has other issues, she was raised by an A. You talk about the problems that the A is bringing you, but its just a bunch of garbage that goes with the drinking, is the A sober? I don't understand your vengence question. I am a strong believer of cause and effect. What goes around comes around. Luv, Bettina
Well I can tell you that most A's do not want limits, they want the whole party to be about themselves and do not take suggestions well. My exA and his mother had their Christmases for ever and then some. I eventually refused to participate but the error I made was not to go out and do things for myself.
The A and I pooled money for a long long time. In theory he paid more but I feel like i paid in time and energy and I put all the effort into our home. He lorded it over me for years about he earned more. He did at times but I contributed my fair share.
Power and inequity ruled in our relationship. Those things started to change when I was in al anon. One thing that really helped me was to get busy. I also stopped arguing with him. I loved the idea of keeping to that. I well remember his puzzled face when I would not rise to his bait.
I used to protest all the time about this relationship with his mother. When she ended up coming to stay with us I remember he was really puzzled by my lack of involvement with the issue of contesting his over involvement with it. The man who never cleaned at all became a slave to cleaning, he cleaned for 4 days, he shopped, he fretted about the house. I said nothing. His mother came and he spent all his time with her, I said nothing. All those things were very new to me but it was also very very calming to act the opposite. Note I did not put myself out at all. I went to dinner with them and kept the talk very perfunctory. When i'd talked to her before I'd revealed way too much information. I did not give her the opportunity to jump on me. I had no idea I did before.
Checking my expectations has been hard. I have these incredibly idealistic expectations of people, places things. Getting real is so so hard. I wanted the ideal partnership. I wanted a partner. I didn't get that. Don't get me wrong, in the early years the A did contribute he did try. At the same time he absolutely wanted all the power and I gave it to him, thinking that was love. I don't think now it was I think that was codependency. Love is when two people care about themselves and each other. I did not care about myself I was craving others to do that.
There are many many tools that you can use from al anon that will help you in your current situation. I don't think you are hopeless anymore than any of the rest of us are.
I use al anon every single day in my life in many different ways and it is so empowering!
Bettina, My husband is in recovery. He's had a couple of relapses since we have been married, but he is a very sneaky drinker--it's not like he get smasherooed and out of control. Just the same, the lying really makes me mad. It's not so much the drinking I care about--it's the side behaviors that ruin our relationship because the trust is shattered. He is sober now and has a sponsor and goes to a couple of meetings a week. I'd feel better if he was working the steps, but its not my biz.
His daughter is married to an alcoholic she met at a restaurant she worked in where he was the bartender. She met her boyfriend before that in a bar, too. She just cannot figure out why she has all these alcoholics in her life! Anyway, when I first met my now husband she was living in his house and was out partying until 3-4 AM and would sleep until noon and then drag her smelly self downstairs and expect me to be just delighted to visit with her. I should have known then that the lack of structure in her life by both parents was a big problem. But then there's that 20/20 hindsight thing. I don't think she is drinking much at all now. She is an RN and has an 8 month old baby boy. She tries to control her husband to make him not drink. She won't let him have any money, won't let him drive the good car, won't let him babysit the child, has the condo in her name only, controls the credit cards. Not any kind of relationship I'd want--too much work.
What I meant about revenge is that my husband is forever comparing the two girls, mine and his. Mine is really good to him and me, has forgiven him for the pass he made at her in the first year of our marriage, generally participates in our lives.
His is pretty much a taker. She has not made any real effort to have a relationship with me. Ignores me, never calls her Dad on our home phone, never talks to me if she does happen to call here and I answer (treats me like a phone operator), never has invited us to her home in the 10 years we have been together. Once in a while she will ask me for decorating advice or how to do something in the garden, but that's about it. She claims she really likes me a lot, but her behavior suggests otherwise. So my husband (based on past behavior) will become difficult about going to my daughter's house or buying gifts for her and the baby and so on. This in spite of the fact that she has worked very hard to heal their initial rift, no small thing, and has been generous and kind to us both. I don't exactly know how to handle it because it will become I big problem is my fear. He won't want her to come and visit us and stuff. Maybe I just need to push through it and see what happens.
I did a lot of pushing in my last relationship. I know it was exhausting. I always had a huge issue of wanting Christmases together, couldn't let go of that wasn't possible for him.
The last Christmas we spent together I did the whole gourmet bit. Got the wonderful bird, killed myself cooking it. The A showed interest and appreciation. He still went over to his brother's got loaded and fell asleep. He didn't even eat any.
I got the dinner though. I have to constantly look at my expectations and what do I need, what do I want. The A would sometimes give me what I wanted but there was always a sabatage in there. If I demanded something he would almost always balk. He'd come through but it would be so laden with resentment and anger it would be toxic. Needless to say requests were not possible. His requests were paramount, mine secondary. After our courtship when I was put "first" for a while (took about a good snare) I fell second always no matter what, sickness, health, crisis, I always came second or should I say last behind whoever else he put after himself.
I was adamant about the pushing though! I felt if I pushed enough he'd do something and generally he did exactly what he wanted regardless of what I wanted.
Hello Maresie, When I said "push" I mean't stick to my guns about not participating when I don't feel up to it. Then let the consequences take the form they will. The only other way to go is let this situation steam roll over me. And get on this forum and crab and whine about it later!
Interestingly, my husband took it upon himself to send an email to his daughter today letting her know that she hurt his feelings by not sending a father's day or birthday card. She probably thinks I put him up to it, evil one that I am. I doubt that will get any changes on her part, but he at least expressed himself. Kind of a major shift.
And I have been working on not taking her inventory, thinking about this today and just enjoying the day. Which I have--the weather was just spectacular here and I have been making a point of drowning in the deliciousness of it. I even went to a petting zoo to see the animals and did some home decorating and bought a big art print, which is really out of the norm for me. I told my husband that it was about time we started to have a nice home that wasn't made of a hodgepodge of stuff that I tried to make work, but rather to plan and put it together a room at a time and make it peaceful and pleasant looking. Felt a lot better than thinking about problems I can't solve anyway.
Boundaries are tough ones. Nuturing is also tough for me. I work in the dark on that one. I'm willing though. I keep working on the boundaries sometimes I have to push myself to acknowledge I've come a long way.
Not interfering is tough for a people pleaser (speaking of myself who people pleases on cue on demand in my sleep). I had to end a friendship with a roommate recently because she went way over my boundaries once again. Its a lot easier to end a friendship than a relationship. I do have boundaries though these days. I let them go a lot but they are there. For me there were none for most of my life no wonder I struggle.
Yeah really... I'm sure boundaries are a big learning curve for most AlAnons! I struggle with them with my kids, too. My one daughter is a beautiful wonderful person, but she can be short and snappish with me and I can either let it slide or correct her and have her get into a further hissy fit. Lose, lose. But it's all a learning, for sure. It seems like boundaries and nurturing are hand in hand. Boundaries to keep dangerous stuff out and nurturing to keep good stuff in. Nurturing for ourselves, that is.
