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Well if you can't tell by the title, I talked to my A yesterday after almost a year of virtually no communication.
I promised him that he could see the kids if he was still housed, working, sober and had a way to get there next month. So I called to see if he wanted to meet for lunch on Friday to talk about it.
The conversation went south fairly quickly. He asked about school and all the kids have issues at school and of course that is because of my implied poor parenting... His is so wonderful considering he's seen them about 3 or 4 times in the last year and a half. So I tell him that I want to take care of the custody issue with our son (here I was thinking I was dealing with a rational person...) and he says ok what joint custody? And I say ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR *&%# MIND??? And he says are you? And I say how many times have you seen him in the past year and a half. Then the discussion turns to how that is MY fault because I have been keeping him from him. UUUUGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! So then I remind him that he has been in jail, etc. Then he says that I should have let him see him even when he was using as long as he wasn't high at the time. And I think (later of course) I think I'd rather have him see him while he WAS high because when he's using and he's not high that's when he's a real *&%&$! I finally got off the phone and had that icky feeling inside. I was angry. I had thought he surely would realize BY NOW that he is unable to care for himself much less anyone else. It still irks me.
So after I got off the phone I thought about telling him on Friday... you can either give me custody now and I'll let you visit as long as you're doing well OR I'll spend every dime I have (which will hurt the kids) fighting for custody in court and dragging out all his dirty drug and prison laundry and get custody with NO visitation. I have no doubt that I would win. I really don't want things to be that way though.
Later I was talking to his mom about the absurdity of the whole thing. He lives in a room in an apartment with another man. He honestly thinks he can get joint custody of a child he hasn't seen more than a handfull of times in over a year. And threatening him with a horrible legal battle although highly tempting seems somewhat futile. Soooo I was thinking about another option. Now I say this with the hope that it will make him "wake up" to the reality...
I am pondering telling him ok you can have joint custody. You need to move down here so you can be in the same school district and get a place to live and a job here. Then you will need to arrange some sort of transportation since you can't drive to make sure he gets to appointments, etc and deal with stuff at school, arrange daycare, etc. Not to mention having food in the house, and paying part of the cost of daycare, etc. The reality is that there is absolutely NO way that this can happen. And I'm hoping that by "conceeding" and saying ok you get your way it will end the argument. He will have to face the fact then that he is incapable of providing any of this. This is about control for him. For me it may be about control but more so about the safety and health of my son. I feel like by saying this it ends the argument that I am "keeping" him from his son, it ends the argument about custody because in reality he is incapable of doing this and then that puts it squarely on him to step up rather than me being in the role of the evil ex wife.
I also talked to him about my oldest daughter who was yelling very clearly about how she didn't want to see him or have anything to do with him while I was on the phone. And he accused me of poisoning her against him. He has always treated her like crap and didn't have a kind thing to say about her on the phone but he honestly believes that his drug/alcohol abuse had NO effect on her or that she shouldn't be as angry as she is. Even though he left her in charge of 2 little kids, threatened her, hit her, scared the crap out of her, intimidated her, and I could go on and on.
The funny thing was that I pointed out to her that she has to do that now too - care for the others and she said ya mom but that's totally different, I know I can call you if something happens. With him there was no one to call I was totally alone and he would come and go drunk, yelling, threatening to beat us if we left the house, we were so scared...we didn't know when he was going to show up or how he would be... I never really thought about the fact that even though she is in charge while I work she can still call me but with him she was completely alone at 11 with two other kids for 3 or 4 days.
This leads me to the topic of my post about denial and delusions. He honestly believes that he can be a good parent which really scares the crap out of me and that in the past he HAS been a good parent which is even scarier. I finally figured that it's because he would have to really look at himself and see that he is not a productive human being, he has not been a good parent, a good husband, etc. and the denial of that is so strong that he just can't accept it. I mean any sane rational person would know that if you go to jail for more than half of a year you're probably not reliable enough to have a child live with you even half the time. He would have to see himself as he really is, see the things he has done to damage the children, see that he is an Ahole and that it really is his fault that all of this has happened to him and he can't get to that. Even sober. I guess I can understand this, if I had done the things he's done and treated people the way he has I guess I would rather live in some alternate universe where I was a great guy, father of the year and a productive addition to society - even if it was only in my own mind. I know I'm not perfect, but I admit it (most of the time) and I see damage that I have done, work that needs to be done on me. He is incapable of seeing his real self or any kind of insight.
Anyway, thanks for listening to my vent, reading my novel and so forth... I would love to hear any opinions about this denial/delusion stuff, and especially about how to handle this custody situation when I discuss it on Friday. I am really leaning toward the ok lets do this and hoping he sees it is unrealistic and agrees to give me custody.
I'm still fully waiting for him to go back to jail so I can just be done with it without a fight and I feel given his continued excuse making and denial it is inevitable at some point!
I can only give you my esh. I have no children of course but do have two dogs who the A claimed to love above and beyond all else. One of the dogs is his. I had to take that dog because he was not taking care of it. As you know I live in the most marginal of circumstances and I am poor so it is a huge hardship for me to take the dogs. If I get into anything at all with the A about sharing responsibility for anything I am in deep trouble. If I get into brain storming how he should live his life (which has been destitute for more than a year now) I am also in trouble. I am right back in there again caretaking him.
The A would hook me into his life in a heart beat.
I can't even conceive that he will ever help me and if I do I'm in trouble.
I got a restraining order against the A. I would get another one if he bothered me. The A has stolen my stuff, broken my stuff and harassed me. I have had it. I am determined never to be involved in his life again.
Here are a couple of things that jumped out at me from your post:
"Now I say this with the hope that it will make him "wake up" to the reality..." "He will have to face the fact then that he is incapable of providing any of this." "I am really leaning toward the ok lets do this and hoping he sees it is unrealistic and agrees to give me custody."
Do you see the "make him" and "he will have to"? I am trying to train myself to remember that whenever I hear myself thinking "make him xxxx" or "he will then have to xxx", *I* am falling into the control trap. NOTHING I DO can "make" him, whether it's make him do, or make him see, or make him think.
And have you ever before said to him, "okay, have it your way", and had him respond, "no, you're right after all, your way is better"? He's got a disease that makes him not see things in what the rest of us would call a rational way, and that's not going to change because he's managed to stay sober for one month on his own - even if he has a program. I remember complaining to my sponsor how my AHsober & I "never talk", & she reminded me he was expending every speck of energy staying sober and working his program. "After THREE MONTHS???!!!???", I expostulated, only to have her look at me and say, "Yes."
Personally, I don't think you need to argue (or discuss) about the court battle or custody at all at this point. Just keep the conversation about visitation. Remember, a long drawn-out court battle requires money on BOTH sides - does he have that?
Maybe actually write out all the thoughtful, say-what-you-mean-but-don't-say-it-mean things before you meet with him. Take it with you so you can whip it out and read from it if you need to. If he has a fit about this, one of the things you can read might be something like, "This was the only way I could think of to say what I meant to you calmly, and stay on track". (Keep a spare copy, in case he gets mad & rips it out of your hands.)
I would be very very reluctant to suggest joint custody. For one thing, it's not what you really want - is it? - so suggesting it is perhaps not as self-honest as you might like. For another, what if he DOESN"T suddently realize that he isn't equipped to deal with it, and instead grins and says, "I knew you'd see it my way!"
Tread carefully - remember you can always say, "I'm not ready to make a decision on that yet, I'll need to think about it."
Aloha CG...I found for me and try to pass on to my sponsees that when I feel the hook hit I stop pulling before the barb sets. It's easier to pull out the hook with out having the barb cause all the pain and wanting me to just let the hook stay and continue to fight the hook line and sinker.
My phones have off buttons and so do the phones of my sponsees. If I find the "conversation" (or is it confrontation or altercation) taking off with my peace of mind and serenity I hit the off button.
My peace of mind and serenity is more important to me today then ever. I don't surrender it to anyone but God. The alcoholic/addict is not god however they wish that to be and yet they have the power to destroy my peace of mind and serenity as I allow it. What ever it is it can wait if the only consequence is loss of soul.
Isn't it so amazing that just the sound of their voice can upset the entire household. "....Cunning, Powerful and Baffling."
MY ESH is that for me, I would need to really seriously pare down and simplify. Create my own "party line"/"sound bite" and stick to it. Also, I would be strongly self-talking about one day at a time. I would be going to extra meetings, too. Good luck with all this and lots of hugs, J.
CG, he is NEVER going to "see" any of that. EVER. Doesn't matter if you wrote it out, doesn't matter if the kids told him, doesn't even matter if a judge told him. He will NEVER, EVER get it. It is not denile. It is not something that he will understand, no matter that at one point in the past he was a "good dad". He is sick beyond all help at this point. I am willing to bet that he could care less about those kids, it is all about him and you. That's it. All of your plans to get him to "see", to get him to be responsible for his kid, to ease your burden, it will not work. I will bet that if you did take him to court, try and make him fight for his child (which any normal parent would) he will disappear and that will be the end of that. I know the temptation to just let the chips fall where they may. The illusion that he night be a good dad again, the dream that he may get a job and be willing to do the right thing and pay you the support you are owed. That is all they are, illusions and dreams. In reality, he is a sick, sick drug addict and if he was really working a program, you would be getting a check weekly and he would either be fighting with every resouce he had to see his kid or he would be working with you. He is doing none of that. He hasn't changed. That man that your daughter hates (with perfect reason) is who he is and not a thing you say or demand (no matter how reasonable) will change him.
All he wants is for things to go back to the way they were. He gets to use and abuse, and you do all the rest. I would really hang onto what your daughter has to say. She has shown you more loyality and love than he ever has. I know it is hard. Believe me, you know I know. But hang onto those kids. You know in your heart what is in their best interest and it is NOT a drug addict who is only out for himself. Yes, your son is his son. Tell him to get a lawyer. Do you know how many Father's Rights advocates are out there? It is like the hippest thing to make sure that fathers see their kids no matter what. He has resourses. Let him figure it out. I know it hurts the kids. But they were hurt more by his behavior when he was part of the family.
Joint custody? LOLOLOL!!!! An ex con drug addict wants joint custody after abandoning his first kid and now his second. Whhooo, that's rich, really. Hon, use any and all anger you may have to keep your kids safe. Don't let yourself get in the way. Don't fall for the fantasy. He is not ever going to be what you want/need. And if he wants what he wants, let him fight for it!!! Love your kids, put your arms around your daughter and promise her you will keep her safe. Your the mom, that's our job. I am in a very similar boat as you and we are rowing along right next to you. We will be just fine without those monsters and when we really let go of them, a real man will come into our lives. In the meantime, we are doing great! Don't fall for the hoover, CG!!!!
Actually, I would love to have joint custody if he were capable of being a parent. I don't trust him at all. No he doesn't have money for a lawyer, but if we could come to an agreement it would be much cheaper and it would give me peace of mind if I had custody. I have fears about him running off with my son which aren't helped by him thinking he can be a functional parent when he has been completely unable to care for himself for the past 18 months much less a child.
I am regretting even opening the door and getting caught in that following through with what I said I would do trap. I like the idea of writing out a say what I mean list however I know he will take it as being mean but none the less, it is what it is.
I don't think I have ever said ok have it your way so I don't know how he will react. I was hoping he would see the absurdity of it. I think I will just stick to the visit and try to avoid all conversations about custody. I just really want that peace of mind.
The worst part is that all the things he says I try to do to him turn into self fulfilling prophecies because of the way he behaves. He compares me to his ex girlfriend who made up abuse allegations to keep him from seeing his son saying I'm "keeping" him from him. Which I do because he uses, goes to jail, etc. In his mind me refusing to take them an hour away to see him is "keeping" him from them. I am kind of glad this happened because I was starting to get the what ifs again regarding being with him but this just refreshes my memory about why it is that I don't want to do that. He's so immature and illogical and difficult to even have a pleasant conversation with - especially if anything is said that he doesn't like.
I'm making the list... Thanks I sure wish this wasn't so complicated.
The thing that gets me about the A is that at one point he could be responsible. After all he kept a roof over our heads for 7 years, paid most of the bills and kept it together on several levels. The issue for me is the cyclical nature of his addiction. He's lost it all before, prison, jail, illness, penniless, and made it back. He had some notion that he could take me along for the ride. I did not sign up for that at all.
I know I had many many red flags when I met him. I saw the red flags and ignored them. I hoped it would get better. Indeed he did hold it together on some levels for a long time. At the same time the quality was not there in our relaitonship, he expected me to give 300% and for him to give 2%. He wanted it ALL from me but did not want to give to me.
I know the issue of dealing with someone's denial. I never speak to the A anymore about his drug use. The usage bought him life threatening illness (Hep c) and took him out so many times yet he insisted he does not have a problem. I did. He insisted I was the problem not wanting to deal with that and his friends. I no longer care about being involved with that. I talked for years and years to him about my needs they were always at the bottom of the barrel.
Poor me is a legitimate way many A's function. I really shudder when I meet poor me these days. I no longer entertain it. For me coming from an incredibly dysfunctional family it took me years to see the red flag. I did not see it as a red flag at all.
I had unbelievable red flags but at the time I just didn't care. I had just gotten out of an even worse relationship. My A also has hep c. He was very giving and mostly functional as well but reflecting now on an emotional level he was bankrupt. He could be sweet and loving and put me first when he wanted to, like right after he messed up various other times. But as a parent it was expected that I did all, I was the adult, the glue I suppose, the bill payer, the child caretaker, the fixer, the housefinder, and the NAG! I was a serious NAG because he never did anything without being nagged! I also run when I see poor me now because NOW I know there's a reason. I honestly believed until this program that some people just get dealt a bad hand. Now I know they picked those cards themselves somehow. If they didn't they don't usually do oh poor me...
For me I can have empathy but the "me" is right up there in it. I know my limits, I went way way way over them. I crossed them so much I lost my health and my sanity. There are people I do not have the resources to deal with. One of my old roommates being one of them. She stretches my resources. I believe she stretches everyone's resources but if they choose to deal with her they can. I choose not to.
I really pay huge attention to red flags. I may not like to but I do it.
I also nagged and nagged and nagged and I don't think I got anywhere with it.
I see now that the A brought me into his life for one reason only to serve him that was it. He did the same with the dogs, he does not care about them at all. He uses them. He justified being very cruel and mean to the dogs as a symptom of his financial condition when he had many many many choices even when he was homeless. He chose even then to use and use and use and use some more.
I have found it extremely hard to be on my own but I find it easier than dealing with him. I do not have the space for him anymore in my life.
CG, you lost me in all of that. So much to think about and I am sober.
I have to agree with serendipity, he is NEVER going to GET IT.
And, whatever, I am sure you have to realise that the authorities - I take it that some child welfare authority will be involved in this - will see him for what he is, for how he conducts his life, that he is not fit to be left in charge of children in the state he is. I know that the law can sometimes seem to be an 'ass' but really, we are talking minors here and the authorities have to be accountable too in the decision that is made regarding the custody of the children.
I somehow feel that the authorities would not give him custody given his drug abuse/his prison record and living arrangements.
Just my
Hopefulheart
-- Edited by Heartbroken at 14:48, 2008-02-25
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"The highest form of wisdom is kindness." The Talmund
I think I can also understand your path of least resistance. I used to want to include the A in all the stuff that went on with me and the dogs. Then when he refused point blank to help to look for one of the dogs when she was missing I dropped that. I stopped asking. I gave up all hope. I found her but he could really care less if I did or not. The dogs used to get out all the time and I'd ask him to help look for them. Routinely he'd do nothing. He'd sit in his car (oh I forgot the car I paid for) and do nothing. He would do that because I would nag him out of the house. Now I expect nothing from him and get nothing it is much easier.
I do know that not contacting the A helps. I would argue with him, try to persuade him otherwise and ask him for stuff. He never did want to give anything by the end. He did "give" for sometime but it had to be asked for most of the time The time when he gave willingly was very very short. I did not pay attention to that.
I can definitely understand that you want him to be a father. At the same time its exhausting to deal with him. You need that energy if you are working two jobs and taking care of three children.
In my experience, the A's will "fingerpoint" at us in order to bait us into an argument. I just let him "blame" me... just because he points the finger in my direction doesn't mean he is right; it does not prove anything is my fault. I decide what I am at fault about... not HIM. (Besides, when he is pointing one finger at me, 3 of his other fingers are pointing straight back at him! LOL)
He won't take your son... that involves work on his part; and he isn't about to make himself uncomfortable in having to work at something. Look at his track record. Nope... your son is safe with you.
By the way... if you can get the book, Getting Them Sober, by Toby Rice Drews, from your local library before you see him... it is an easy read and it will arm you with much understanding of his manipulations.
Hi lady,well I have read your posts for a very long time. I could never understand what made you answer your phone when he called.What made you not change your number.
Have you ever spoken with him where you were glad you answered the phone?
It just hit me that it seems like me when I want to call my AH.Then that thing of ya cannot get bread from a hardware store.
Do you really believe when you answer that phone that it will be a good thing in any way?
If it were me, I would not do anything. It would not be my problem. If he wants to visit bad enough, he can figure out a way to set that up.
It is not my responsiblity. He has done this same thing before. If he wanted to see his other child bad enough he would have.
I can bet if it were you, you would move heaven and earth to see your kids.
I agree with ESH. A's like this are full of bs. they won't extend the energy to really make anything happen.
As far as the list of things he would have to do.Why bother? I read it but it was a bit much for me too. lol I mean, he will not get it.
I would ignore him,not want him close to my kids at all. It would be up to them someday if they want to know him.
My A would not fight for anything. They are too busy laying low. They want no attention on them. Besides they don't like themselves well enough to fight for anything but the drug.
What has he ever done that was positive? I mean since he has been out of the home. What in the world does he have to offer his child?
I always feel you are the do anything to save the marriage one and here you are encouraging the opposite... Makes me think gee this must be worse than I'm seeing it...
I always seem to think things are not as bad as they really are to "normal" people - if there is such a thing...
The worst part is that I brought this on myself and called him because I was going to be in his town Friday and was "following through with my promise". My greatest downfall. Now I feel trapped into going because I said I would. I talked to his mom last night and she said she told him he should go to the doctor (I think she meant the psychiatrist) and hasn't heard from him since. I just don't want to be the one withholding his son from him. I also don't want to deal with the aftermath of his visit. Here's my prediction of how it will go if I follow through with it which I'm seriously leaning toward not contacting him again and just letting him make the moves to set it up as u said.
I drop the kids off at a meeting place (probably the beach) and he gets upset because after a year and a half they're not all warm and fuzzy to him anymore. He blames this on me "alienating" them and making them hate him rather than his absence and distance growing over time. He gets angry, feels sorry for himself, etc. uses, goes to jail. I go to the lawyers office the next day and file for custody...
If I decide not to go I'm withholding his child from him and it's my fault he can't see him.
Either way it's my fault... I guess this is just a no win situation. Of course we never really know how things will play out. I was hoping he had changed, he's been going to meetings, been sober, I thought maybe he had some clarity. Apparently not.
I agree w/Debilyn 120% on this one. Please read her post again. I hope that you feel better soon, looks like you are on the rollercoaster, dear. Hugs, J.
I was with the A I was with for 7 years. Nothing ever ever ever was his fault ever.
I got tired of being blamed for every single problem in his life. I also got tired of him passing the buck. The dogs are just a tiny part of it. I used to entertain the idea of being nice to him. I used to feel sorry for him that he was "sick" (so am I by the way very ill with lots of illnesses) in legal trouble, car trouble whatever. The A had absolutely no compassion or sympathy for me. The stuff he dumped on me was incredible. I took it till the day I said no more. And I meant it no more.
You are absolutely not responsible for keeping his son from him, his behavior and addiction has done that.
A's live sleep and dream in incredible denial. I have my own denial I have to pierce through all the time. I do not live in denial that I have anything to do with the A's current situation which I studiously work not to know. He did that to himself. I did none of it. I have not lived with him for a year but he would blame me for the clouds crossing the sky.
I can very much understand the desire to hold onto the notion he may come through for your son. The reality is as long as he blames and blames and blames he is not "there" for anyone.
Thanks, it's clear he's not better, I can see that with the blaming, refusing to accept any personal responsibility and total lack of insight. You're right and he is just creating conflict rather than saying ok lets talk about this like adults. I was guilty of that too by my reaction to his absurd statement. Bread at the hardware store...bread at the hardware store.
