The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
For much of my time in both programs, I've seen and heard the "disease" debate probably hundreds of times. I understand it's a founding premise of AA, that it's something we must accept as truth in order to recover.
Really?
I would like to put out the notion that "disease" is a human term. Its dictionary definition will vary from one reference to another, and if you go into medical libraries, you can probably find a checklist of what does, and does not constitute a disease. From there, you can apply all the known attributes of alcoholism (or other addictions) to that checklist, and decide for yourself if it's a disease or not.
Or else you could do something far more productive and interesting with your time.
I understand that the LEGAL definition of alcoholism as a disease is very important to certain people because it's a matter of money -- does money get spent on research, treatment, etc, or not? Does insurance cover it? On and on....
But time and time again, I've seen people use the "disease" definition as an excuse to keep on drinking. "I've got a disease, I can't help it." And by the same token, if they disagree with the disease assumption, they strut away from AA proclaiming it's all will power. Well guess what - it doesn't matter what you believe, or what I believe, or what congress believes, or what doctors believe. It is what it is; rewriting our definition of alcoholism changes _nothing_.
Tomorrow a new study, theory, or proclamation could convincingly declare alcoholism to be a disease, a moral flaw, immaturity, demonic possession, alien abduction, microbial invasion, brain waves from the center of the galaxy, or just a bad luck draw on the deck of life. So what?
Now suppose alcoholism is a disease. AA is the treatment. We in alanon who do NOT have the disease of alcholism find that we benefit from nearly the *exact same treatment*. Isn't that interesting? Those 12 steps enable us to live better lives, achieve serenity, know a higher power... just as they do for the alcoholic. What's up with that anyway?
I don't know if alcoholism is a disease. The definition of alcholism can be changed to make it a disease; or the definition of disease can be changed such that alcoholism qualifies. Or not. This has No Bearing on what I need to do today - to stay sober, or to work my Alanon program.
I'm not trying to start, or perpetuate the disease debate. I'm just pointing out that it's not relevant to recovery. If you break your leg, your leg is broken - it needs to be set, splinted, casted... and you need to keep off it until it heals. This is exactly the same whether you broke your leg falling down the stairs, jumping out of a tree, in a bar fight, a car accident, falling off a horse, jumping off a cliff, doing too many squat-thrusts, or just woke up one day and found your leg broken. The doctor may be curious as to how you did it, but the treatment will be the same.
I think of myself as a knowledgeable person - I love to learn things, read studies and theories, judge them for myself. This includes the topics of alcoholism, addictions, and diseases. There's nothing wrong with that. Unless I decide that I have a vitamin Q deficiency and that as long as I gobble copius quantities of VQ, I can drink as much as I want..... thus thinking myself into two addictions where there was one!
So talk about it, think about it... but the important thing is... Keep Coming Back.
Hi barisax. Heaven knows I do not want to debate this "disease" thing either. I suppose one can always do something better with his/her time. It is ok to wonder...like you said, it really doesn't matter to which opinion one adheres; it is what it is.
Best to you and yours for happy holidays,
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Yeah Bari, I have wondered about some of these things. For one, alcoholics behave similarly whether they are drinking or not; eventually. Time and time again I see these astonished people who say, "but I thought everything would be fine once they stopped drinking."
The disease is a way for US to detach. If we can pin it on a disease, it excuses us so we can freely use the 3 C's. It could be a rationalization. I have read some things about how the chemicals in alcohol affect those who drink a lot and certainly people do drink themselves to death but again, that is not necessarily about a disease, its about suicide.
Disease could be viewed as Dis Ease or not having any ease in ones life. A troubled life, a troubled mind, etc. Stressed out, pressured, bothered, etc. Who isn't these days? Well, we who are seeking recovery are seeking serenity so we are countering a dis-ease we know exists for ourselves. We long for ease. We fight for ease. Through recovery we find ease or serenity.
Our english language really sucks. Its so limited compared to most other languages (that I am aware of). We really are so limited by it. I bet the words may exists for more complex concepts in another language. But this is all we have right here right now. Good topic and thanks for having the guts to bring it up- again, you know I think dissent and wonder and pondering are all totally legit and in fact are sort of a dying art these days...
Our english language really sucks. Its so limited compared to most other languages (that I am aware of). We really are so limited by it. I bet the words may exists for more complex concepts in another language. But this is all we have right here right now. Good topic and thanks for having the guts to bring it up- again, you know I think dissent and wonder and pondering are all totally legit and in fact are sort of a dying art these days...
Actually English has more words and forms than any other three languages put together. I don't think the problem is a lack of words. My point is, that the words we use to describe a thing, to convey an understanding of the thing - they may change or affect our understanding, but they do not change the thing. It is what it is, whether we have 100 names for it or no name for it.
My experience is that this program and the steps work, and whether I use the D-word or not (and I usually do), it still works.
For me, thinking of it as a disease makes it easier to stop blaming the A, and go on to more useful things to think and feel about. So, for me, the 'disease' thing works.
If I were to really look closely at that definition, yes, I'd see some inconsistencies. However, it wouldn't be helpful to me to do that, so I don't bother. In the end, I need a way to look at reality that enables me to live in the healthiest possible fashion. What the way is, is not as important as that I have found it.
Here is what I learned about disease , after 15 yrs in Al-Anon a repaired marriage , family close and happy , my A got cancer for the 3rd round this one was a baddie , I finally got what this prog had been trying to tell me for yrs . I noticed my behavior started to change ( again ) no matter what the disease is I change . I start to hover - anticipate your every need and do it before you ask - I give up my life to save yours sheeeeeeeesh . been there done that way too many times . Today I do what I can for you to ease your discomfort but I continue to take care of me and my needs . meetings staying in tough with prog friends and share my fears before I start to act on them . God and professionals took care of his needs . that is my take on disease . Louise
I don't understand the philosophy that would expect us to put the concerns of another aside while we see to our own needs if, at the time, our loved one's needs are greater than our own. If someone I love becomes afflicted with, say, cancer and is having a difficult time with chemotherapy, radiation, and whatever other torture is being used to combat the cells, I can't imagine taking the attitude that his/her HP will take care of that, so I can cop out and see to my own "stuff." It seems normal and loving to me to want to do what I can to ease the pain of a loved one; callous and cold not to. I would, for instance, gladly die in place of one of my children. Is there some word to describe me? Am I supposed to be striving to overcome the goodness in my heart? I am not getting something here.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I dunno Diva, it seems that for me, I struggle to even see or identify my own needs which is why I need this program so badly. I think for many of us, we became doormats and gave and gave and gave to our A's because we have a disease that affects us so that we lose sight of ourselves, our own needs and what is best for us. I think it is a pretty personal choice as to whether one would die for their loved one or not: sibling, parent, child, etc. You know where you stand and that is great. Also, many of us cannot help our A's- we have tried until the cows came home and nothing helped so we pass our wish over to HP. Sometimes a person can help another person. Sometimes we cannot and its up to God. I like to think that my recovery program helps me to understand where that boundary is- when I can do something and when I can no longer...
Sure, I think most of us would die to save one of our children. The point is, though, that in the lives most of us live, that is not one of the choices given. We have the choice. when someone we love is dying, of losing them and still having our own sanity, or of losing them and losing ourselves in the bargain.
You can sacrfice yourself all you want, but it will not save someone who is beyond saving, whether from cancer, a car accident, or alcoholism. This is clear to us, in the case of something like a car wreck - we know that throwing OURSELVES in front of yet another car won't do one thing for the person lying in intensive care. It's less clear in the case of alcoholism, where the death is slower, and there is the illusion that we can actually do something about it.
For years, I sacrificed myself on the altar of my husband's alcoholism. I put my own needs last if at all, I gave and gave and gave. When he got worse, I put my head down and worked harder. And, if that had saved him, I might count it well worth it. The reality, though, is of course that none of my sacrificing did anything at all to save him - if anything, it made him worse because he had less reason to help himself.
I have always been into medicine and love research and learning about disease. If no one did, we would not have vaccines etc.
I find genetics very, very interesting. Yes labels can be a real drag. The thing for me was that since it is in our genetic code to be an addict the same as if we will have brown eyes,it made me so much more compassionate towards all addicts.
Yep, I would die to save my child, but, true, that is not often a choice we can make. But "sacrificing myself for some one else is not what I mean. I mean giving, loving, caring for. If my love were to contract Alzheimer's for instance; you can bet your bottom dollar I would take care of him. I'd never say, "Well let his HP take care of him. I'm gone. I've got my own agenda." But I don't see Alzheimer's (and other debilitating diseases) in the same light as alcoholism. Alcoholism I could walk away from and never look back. Make sense?
Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 00:56, 2007-12-14
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
In my home group a very serious and loving mother struggled for more than a year with this question -- is it truly a disease? Then one day as we went around the table she said, " I know now that Alcoholism is a disease because every time my son drinks --- he breaks out in handcuffs."
We all died with laughter.... this was her break thru, she had tried all that she could, done everything humanly possible to help this situation. Acceptance that it was a disease for her was accepting that she was powerless over the alcohol and that was her first step in recovery.
I have heard it used as an excuse from active A's -- but active A's use many excuses don't they, so what's the difference. To me addiction is an illness -- mental and physical -- and there is treament but it's got to be sought by the the A. It would piss me off is someone I loved was dieing of cancer and blew off seeking treatment, just as much as an A who says I know I have a drinking problem but I'm going to continue to drink. Yet they have that right. It's my right to do what's in my best interest and to take care of myself -- to limit the affects of this disease on my life in ways that are healthy for me.
I am reminded of a young fellow who came to our meetings -- he had a few years sobriety and was so angry because his father just could not do what he had done -- gotten sober. It's our thinking that we can control someone else or expect them to do as we want, that gets us where we are, even this fellow who had experienced Aism and what it takes for recovery wanted to believe that "if only" his father would....and you know where those "if onlys" get us. For me, if it helps you to define Alcoholism as a disease then do so -- if it does not, then don't. It's neither superior thinking to choose to believe on not believe that it's a disease. Some even "come to believe" that it's a disease.
Questioning things/thoughts is always good, but let it not bog us down from our purpose here.
Maybe you have found the answer, Diva. There is a difference between giving, loving, caring for (someone who cannot care for themselves and/or needs our support), and sacrificing ourselves for a cause we cannot effect a change in. We cannot cause, cure, or control alcoholism. So why would we loose ourselves, sacrifice ourselves, for nothing, or worse, sacrifice ourselves to aggravate and make a situation worse?
If a loved one has cancer or alzhiemers, we can help, by giving comfort, taking to appts, cooking,etc. We can effect a change not in their disease, but in their quality of life. Aism is different in that if we try to do these things for them, they suck us dry AND it doesn't help. It makes things worse.
Maybe the key is first understanding what we are dealing with, and then making an educated decision about how much we are willing to give/sacrifice for the cause.
In recovery,
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Disease Masease Palease!!! I don't care what you call it, I just want away from it!! Call it whatever you want to help you cope with it, deal with it and get the heck on with your life.
Disease Masease Palease!!! I don't care what you call it, I just want away from it!! Call it whatever you want to help you cope with it, deal with it and get the heck on with your life.
Alrighty then. This discussion sure has come full circle. I'm not sure if I communicated my point or not. I just think sometimes we become obsessed with labels, and our actions become dependent on whether or not a thing is labeled A, B, C, or X. All I'm saying is recovery isn't about labels, its about taking action, putting one foot in front of the other.
Great topic and replies. The reason I believe it's a disease is because of the physical problems he has. I have high blood pressure, it's a physical fact. Both of these can be treated. I treat mine with medication. My AH who suffers from spinning thoughts, super anxiety, etc. has perscriptions to treat them. He suffers from alcoholism. Like me has a choice to treat or not to treat. His behavior of going to AA or not, not working a program or not, will directly impact his disease. The same way with mine. If I eat poorly, don't take my meds, don't exercise, it will directly impact my disease. So we both have choices. The blessings of AA and Alanon is that they help focus our recoveries on us. By changing our behaviors it will have a direct impact on our disease. But it's our choice. If he wants to help his recovery, he will do what he has to in order to sober and hence alive. If I want to recover, then I have to do what is necessary. The point is we both have choices. AA helps with those choices. Alanon helps me make mine.
Love and blessings to you and your family. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Claus
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
