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Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums -> Al-Anon Family Group -> Al-Anon Family Group -> My two cents.
Post Info TOPIC: My two cents.
Diva


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My two cents.
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A couple of replies to a post have been directed more at my response than the original poster. Why would that be? I'll tell you.

When a poster writes that the A bf is abusing her both mentally and physically, I am not going to say, "Go to AlAnon meetings so that you can acquire the tools you need to make decisions." Or, "It is the disease talking, not the person." What in the world does that mean? Does it make things different? No it does not. "If you decide to stay..." Are you kidding me? Anyone who is being physically abused needs to get away. Physical abuse has a way of turning into murder, and I will not suggest that anyone consider staying in that kind of volatile relationship. Call the police, file a report, and get thee out!

You can think what you will of me; I don't care. I must be true, not only to myself, but to those who are suffering physical violence from some no good loser who has no intention of making changes.

I find no reference in any AlAnon literature I have ever read that suggests we "have a choice to make" about whether or not to stay in a dangerous, potentially deadly situation.

So why, you might wonder, don't I just keep my mouth shut and not bother to reply to these posts. Because I could not live with myself if the worse happened, and I had not given a straight-forward, no-holds-barred, factual answer.

Sometimes it comes down to common sense.

Very best wishes to all,

Diva

-- Edited by debilyn at 23:32, 2007-11-22

-- Edited by Diva at 08:47, 2007-11-23

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kissers


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Diva,

Honesty is always appreciated. Alanon does not endorse physical abuse and suggests for the person to remove themselves. I do remember reading that in Alanon literature. Thank you for bringing this topic up.

Hugs,
Lisa

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debilyn


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I too wish when a person is being abused they would leave. But sadly it is a well known fact, they don't, and if they do before they are really ready, they go back.

I am very sure when it is known a person is being abused they have been told over and over to "just" leave. Does not work that way.

I know because I have been there. The thought of leaving makes you sick. You think where will I go? I have no money, I cannot leave my animals, my home.

Or worse, if I leave he will come and kill me. And they do.

So you come right out, and tell her to leave, she does he kills her then what??? This is a major reason we do not give advice or tell someone what to do.
We share our experience, and maybe someone will relate.

It is NOT that cut and dried that a person can just leave.
Some people don't have a dime, or any friends or family. Some are so sick from the Aism they do not have the strength to make such a huge decision.

If a person feels strongly as you do, I would suggest saying, I feel very uncomfortable with you staying in your situation.
 
But to give advice and blatantly tell someone what to do has NEVER been part of Al Anon. I remember going to a meeting many, many years ago.I never went back becuz I felt they were telling us we needed to leave our A.I still remember my gut tightening.

In my experience people come here because they are mixed up.They may be ready to go, yet are scared. They don't understand how come they are so wishy washy. What makes it so hard?
They do not come here to have someone to tell them what to do. They come here to get help to find out what makes them do what they do.

They come here to find common experience.

This is MY experience. And I have seen it hundreds of times. And I see them going back and I have gladly listened to them along the way like everyone here listened to me.

This was the ONE place I could come and let it out and NO ONE told me what to do, called me stupid or made me feel unwelcomed.

And this place, with these people held me up when I finally did let go. You were not here then, but the group then stayed up nights with us together, helping each other into the am of the night.

And I still communicate with a few of them.

Anyway this is what works, telling people what to do does not, it just makes them not want to come back.

love,debilyn

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Karilynn


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(((((((Diva))))),

Having taught classes on Domestic Violence and seen the statistics, I too could not in good conscience say "stay or got to meetings."  My first suggestions would be to talk to people at agencies or a pastor or anyone who would listen.  My first obligation is to my safety and that of my children.  I know all the reasons why both women and men (yes, men too) stay in violent relationships.  But to turn a blind eye to the violent side of a relationship is not in me.  So I would "strongly encourage" someone to take care of their safety first.  It does no one good to attend meetings if they are dead! I have also seen on this board where many people have urged people to be safe first.  I applaud you for doing so. 

Love and blessings to you and your family. Love to the animals.

Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty



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canadianguy


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RE: My three cents.
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This is a highly charged subject, and one that I can quite easily get defensive on, but will try to give my two cents and OPINIONS (which is what we all really have here, since none of us are professionals, per se)

These are MY beliefs, and supported & shaped by people such as Toby Rice Drews - the author of the "Getting Them Sober" books, who is very adamant that people on her site NEVER advise people to stay or leave, nor does she allow people to insinuate that "leave = strong" or "stay = weak".

We can NEVER know enough about a person's situation or circumstances, from one post online, to know definitively what is the right or wrong thing to do.  Even in domestic violence cases, we cannot and do not know whether the "safer" thing for an individual is to stay or to leave.  I agree that on the surface, at least, most of us want to think the same things, that the person could/should get the heck out....  (We likely also make similar assumptions when we read those words such as "alcoholic" and "boyfriend/girlfriend" and think privately to ourselves that those words should never be used in the same sentence, lol.)

Diva, you say that you "couldn't live with yourself if you kept your mouth shut, and something terrible happened".... so let me ask that same question another way.... could you live with yourself, if you told a person to leave, and by doing so, their psychotic A hunted them down and killed them, all "because" they left??  I know it sounds harsh, but our courts seem to have difficulty protecting victims, and the reality is - before a person is emotionally ready to leave, even for safety reasons, they will often come back shortly after (just like we come back to our A's over & over again). 

When people come to this Board, or other places, in this much crisis and need, I really hope we can use compassion over all else.  The reason that I responded to your (and one other) post, on the thread you are mentioning, is that there was a very definitive "should" directive, and we need to support and encourage here.  There is a huge difference between advising somebody to seek whatever options they have, remind them of the crisis counsellors or domestic abuse safety houses, ask if they have options to get out, etc., versus insinuating that one would be a moron if they don't do "such and such".

We have had this disagreement both publicly and privately before, and I'm sure this will not end it.  I DO respect your opinions, and you have a tremendous following on this board, much larger than myself.  You and I can "agree to disagree" on this subject, but I needed to post this for the "other view", so to speak.

One final comment, and this one IS out of frustration.  Al-Anon does not encourage people to stay, nor does it encourage people to leave.  Al-Anon encourages people to do whatever they need to do, in their best interests, to get better, to work on themselves, and to get themselves healthy.  My biggest concern when you mock the so-called "canned" responses of people on this board, that we say fluffy things like "go to meetings and all will be better", you inadvertently mock Al-Anon and what it stands for.  I know from other posts of yours, that this is not your intention.

There.... I am now officially off my soapbox.  I will continue to take people to task on here when they cross that line of telling others what they should/should not do, and if the board doesn't want that, I would be willing to step down as a Board moderator.

Yours in recovery
Tom

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SLS


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RE: My two cents.
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Great post, Tom!! I have gone back to the post in question a number of times and resisted the urge to address the feelings that it stirred up in me, until now. It struck me deeply and personally.  When I first read the post, I was struck by its lack of compassion or empathy. Instead, it rang of judgment and distain for the person's apparent weakness or lack of self-esteem. Had I been on the receiving end, I would not have returned to this board for support or encouragement, and that is troubling to me.

So, I will share my E, S & Hope...

I am a well-educated woman. I am a professional. I am self-sufficient and the one who took care of everyone else. Think that made me immune to the effects of being in a relationship with an active A?? Think again. I found myself in a situation that I NEVER thought possible. I thought that I could handle it.  Afterall, I had always handled everything and everyone else, hadn't I??  I didn't realize until it was almost too late that I couldn't handle the A, who was finally and completely "insane" and out-of-control.
 
When I finally reached out for help, I was supported and loved. I was embarassed and humiliated, but no one told me that I had to act on someone else's time table. I was encouraged to protect myself and offered a safe place when needed.
 
But, I wasn't ready to act.  There were so many factors. I was afraid for my AH and what he might do to himself.  He had drunkenly threatened to kill himself, what if he actually tried to do it?  I had invested so much in the relationship, how could I walk away?  What if I left and he destroyed my home?  What if I left and then he saw the light and it was too late for us--I would have gone through all of that "hell" for nothing.  All of these things made absolutely no difference and in the light of day meant absolutely NOTHING. But, I had to figure that out for myself.  Most likely, if anyone had told me what to do or insinuated that I was weak or a "loser" for staying, I would have stayed longer just to prove them wrong.

Looking back, I was so much like the alcoholic.  I had to reach my own bottom before I took action.  But, when I did, I knew that there were people who loved me who would help and who would not judge just because I had not acted when they thought I should.

Al-Anon does not tell someone what to do or when to do it. But that does not mean that we encourages anyone to stay in an abusive relationship. We love each other when we can't love ourselves. We encourage each other to take care of ourselves. We tell each other to keep coming back to a safe place where we can get our heads on straight, process what is happening and make the right decisions for ourselves.  We offer each other the respect and autonomy that we are likely not receiving from the A. Finally, we answer that phone call, day or night, when someone is ready to take action and then we act with love to help them when asked.

I am a grateful member of Al-Anon.  This program has saved my life--emotionally, spiritually, and physically.

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Jen


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This is a good debate. I know the opinions of all of you come from love and caring about each other and the members of this board.

Diva, Deb, Karilyn, Tom, SLS, you are a loving and caring people.

Diva, I love your honesty. I know you fear for a person who is in this type of situation.

I try to encourage a person to know they do have options, to have the courage to seek them out and form a plan to get themselves safe. Getting away from an abuser is a very scary situation. I have pulled a friend out of a situation like that(when she was ready and called me). It was scary. He ended up on our doorstep, threatening and we had a challenge reasuring her that she didn't have to go back to him. We also had to back him down. Thank goodness we are gun owners who aren't afraid to use them. The sheriff was 40 minutes away. My mother met him at the door with a shotgun. And this was all once she was ready to leave him.

We do not know the details of a persons situation. What services are available? Do they have friends or family? What are they capable of handling, emotionally and physically?

Alanon does not endorse staying in an abusive relationship, but I believe does suggest a Plan B for safety. Alanon does not suggest that we tell someone to leave. Our place is support, to lend strength, to help a person grow and change on their own schedule.

I know from experience that sometimes that is the hardest thing to do as we fear that their personal growth may not come fast enough, but don't we fear the same for our A's? I know I did. I feared for his life every time he started using again. Many nights I waited for the phone to ring with bad news, or layed in bed next to him listening to him breathe erraticly wondering if he would wake in the morning. But try as I might I could not save him from his bad choices. And so it is with the codependent of the abuser. We fear for them, but we cannot do for them what they must do for themselves.

OK, sorry this turned into a long mantra. I'll get down now. It's someone elses turn on the soapbox. LOL

With love for you all in recovery,

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~Jen~

"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
Diva


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First, I thank all of you for your replies.  We all have the right to think and respond for ourselves, and I always respect that right.  Whether you think I am caring and concerned, (which I am) or disdainful, judgmental, and harsh makes no difference to me.  What does make a difference is how we think about a person being in potentially mortal danger.  That's not a beat-around-the-bush situation; it is a get-out-now-to-save-your-life situation. I'd rather one be offended by my words but get out and be safe, than be dealt with with kid gloves and pay the ultimate price.

To my way of thinking, when a man hits a woman, the relationship has become a life-or-death struggle.  And the same is true when a woman physically abuses a man.

Again, thanks for your replies.  But try to remember this:  Don't dismiss off-hand what I have to say because you don't happen to like my style.  
Diva

-- Edited by canadianguy at 03:37, 2007-11-25

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Kim65


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I'm jumping in late here, but I can't not speak a little bit on this subject.

It wasn't until I kicked the exA out, and then a few weeks of the fog to clear, that it all flooded into me that I'd been in a relationship that was abusive. It was primarily emotional or verbal abuse, but in the beginning of the relationship he was physically violent, and then toward the end it came back.

Part of my recovery has been to address the abuse specifically, it was too confusing to my shattered brain to weave it in with Alanon. I needed tremendous amounts of validation and reinforcement to make the decision to rule out going back to exA in the case of him getting sober. Domestic violence and addiction co-occur, but they are separate issues each needing specific interventions. And DV does not necessarily cease when the A gets sober, as the "abusive mindset" is usually severely entrenched and with years of therapy, the abuser that quits abusing is by FAR in the minority.

The only other thing I want to comment on is the dangers of giving advice that may go awry. First, being "told" to leave the abuser is 99.9% going to fail. Getting ready to leave is a LONG LONG process of crawling out of a desperate hole, regaining shreds of self confidence as you go, and needing massive support from others the entire way.

So our "advice" to leave is more likely to be wasted than to cause a woman to suddenly leave without planning or safety measures. We've all heard of battered women that stay in unbelievable violence, so a stranger's "advice" may validate the woman's feelings but that's about it.

And in terms of a woman being killed by her abuser . . . I want to be very clear on this . . . it is ALWAYS the abuser's fault the woman is dead, or beaten, NOT the fault of a well meaning person encouraging her to leave.

That's it :)

Kim


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kikgirl517


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You know, it's hard for me to pass judgment on anyone who stays in an abusive relationship. I have been in an emotionally abusive relationship. I have been in a relationship where we BOTH would get drunk and fight. And it got physical. And it was both of us. Never hitting, just pinning me down or whatever, and I always blamed it on alcohol. And I stayed. I didn't leave till the night he came home blacked out and actually beat me up. He woke up the next morning in a jail cell and didn't even know what he had done. And he has not drank since. That was a year and a half ago. He hasn't been physically or verbally abusive to me since he sobered up and honestly, I'm glad I stuck it out.

That's not to say I think all relationships are like mine, or that a woman should stay with a man who beats her up. I do think, however, that no one truly knows what goes on between two people in a relationship other than those two people, and who is ANYONE to judge someone for the situation they choose to be in? If my family and friends judged me for staying with my boyfriend, or pressured me to leave him, I would not be with the wonderful, sweet, sober man I am with now.

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Jean4444


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All, its important to me that we be ourselves. Take what you need and leave the rest. I have no problems with anyones posts, never have, never will. I am not going to judge what anyone has to say here, I very simply take what I need and leave the rest. I thought this was one of the giant beauties of al-anon, that there is room for ALL OF US here. C'mon people: how about some principles above personalities?! I love the individuality of every single voice here. I love all the perspectives. Its our strength.

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debilyn


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However Jean we have the 12 steps and traditions that are the heart of Al Anon. It is very important we follow those guidelines. We have ops/moderators for the purpose to keep this a safe place, and to help us all follow the guidelines.

I don't usually disagree with the idea of what is said,it is how it is said. I appreciate so much that people step up and say how they feel. However it cannot be directed at one person. That is not the Al Anon way. Nor is it to attack our members person.

I will be the first to step up when someone is saying someone is this or that, for what they have chosen to do,or for being in a situation that may be questionable. 

Unconditional positive regard, is primary.

Much love,debilyn


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Jean4444


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It has not been my experience that I have read of anyone's posts that seemed like anyone was being attacked here. Gee, guess I missed something...? Feels like a safe place to me. All thanks to people like you. J.

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Alanoner


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Having worked in the field of domestic violence, I can say that statistics show that when a woman leaves is the time she is in the most danger of being killed.

Does that mean stay?  NO!

It means that at the first sign of danger the woman needs to start garnishing support from trusted friends, family, and PROFESSIONALS (like the battered woman's shelter) and consult a lawyer and begin working on a serious plan to get away SAFELY.  It isn't easy...it takes careful planning because as some people pointed out, the laws and courts don't really protect women adequately.

The scariest statistic that I read about is that the women who were killed by their abusive partner were almost always killed after they had gotten away safely and agreed to meet their partner to "talk things out", which is a common way for abusers to get women to agree to see them again.  They know many women think anything can be "talked out". 

Once you get away from an abuser NEVER NEVER NEVER meet them anywhere other than an extremely public place (and only if you have to...like in a courthouse!), never get in a car with them, and never meet them at their house or let them come to yours.  Many a smart woman who worked for months on a careful plan and who got away safely...foolishly let a sick abuser trick them into putting themselves in harms way again (being alone with them), and it was their demise.

If you have kids, don't talk to the abuser about them (many abusers use kids as tools to stay in contact to garnish weaknesses to continue the abuse), do everything through a lawyer and the courts or through relatives.  Meet them at public places to drop off/pick up kids.  Abusers are like roaches, open the door a tiny crack and they will push the door open, move right in, and invade your home and body.

From my experience, drugs and or alcohol were usually a strong part of most abusers lives.   They are not that way because of the drugs/alcohol, but these chemical addictions lowers their already poor inhibitions even more and makes them even more dangerous.

My shelter had one woman living there who agreed to see her abuser to "talk things out" for the sake of the kids.  She met him at a park for  a "family picnic".  He pretended to forget something and ran to the store to get it and take the kids to a bathroom. He dropped the kids at his moms, came back without them, tied the woman to a tree and beat and raped her and left her there, naked, in the cold.  She almost died, she would have had a jogger not found her.  We had to send her to another shelter in another state once she was released from the hospital (her abuser was in jail, but she was in danger from his family members who claimed she was making it up to hurt him, that it wans't him).  I was very very saddened to learn during my years there that these types of incidents are shockingly common.

No one should underestimate the danger that women are in from abusive partners, or the difficulty in leaving such a situation safely.  It takes careful planning and help from family, friends, and professionals in domestic violence, legal issues, and law enforcement.  It is rarely so simple as packing a bag and walking out, unless you are rich enough to pay for  a heavily armed and well trained 24 hour private security force.


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debilyn


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"It is your choice to waste your life on this guy, so what can one say? Your post is so very sad to read because it is filled with lack of self-esteem and self-loathing.  Until you get yourself together, things will not improve; you will continue to be abused physically and mentally.  I am sorry about that."

We all know where the conflict came from. Again we are questioning the way it was done, not the person who chose to do it.

We all surely learned from your great post. However, we are not disputing if someone should stay or get out.

We are disputing the fact that we are not to tell someone what to do,give advice.

Nor are we to be derogatory to their person. The above quote is what started this. As anyone can see,this quote is taking someone elses inventory. Telling someone they have no self esteem and loath themselves is not our job. And besides that, we have NO idea if they are true, plus to tell someone when they get it together is moot. NO ONE ever gets it all together. We will all die before we get it together.

This is what made this post so dangerous. I agree with Diva. I stated that. I wish every person being hurt/abused could just leave. As you so very well presented it is not easy at all.

The problem really is not the idea, it is how it is presented.I believe everyone should "own" their own experience. Using I feel, I believe, in my experience. That cannot be argued.




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Diva


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Debilyn, my approach may be different from yours, but I insist that anyone who hangs around a guy who uses them as a punching bag has self-worth issues, and until and unless those issues are dealt with, the victim will remain so. Just how would you have me say that in another way?  I very much resent that you want others to view my response as a personal attack.  Because nothing could be farther from the truth.

  
 
Diva

-- Edited by Diva at 09:34, 2007-11-24

-- Edited by canadianguy at 03:32, 2007-11-25

-- Edited by canadianguy at 03:36, 2007-11-25

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SLS


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"it is a get-out-now-to-save-your-life situation."

This debate can continue ad nauseam, but whatever the intent, the original post did not convey the above sentiment.



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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself.
The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
vam


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i cruise this forum every morning and i get a lot out of what people have to say or just reading about the situations of others and that reminds me of what and who i am...

this place helps a lot of people. this thread however, does not.

if there is a conflict with the moderators, it is my opinion that it be taken to a private forum and debated where it will not turn off or distract people from their reasons for comming here. the reasons for being here are not to see pissing matches between people who are supposed to be helping others or giving them hope for something better than they have now.

at this point i wouldnt know who to think was able to give guidance or hope to me,were i a newcommer. there is already enough controversy and drama in our lives, dont you think ?

just my opinion folks

peace and all things good

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bob6502


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No, No, No, I am sorry you are misinformed, but Al-Anon  never advocates staying in a place where a persons safety is compromised. Ever! In fact, that is one of the situations where Al-Anon does offers advice...nobody deserves to live in an unsafe environment...get out and take care of yourself! I agree nobody deserves to be abused, and going to meetings is not going to keep you from getting hit. How Al-Anon Works for Families and Friends of Alchoholics has information all through it stating that it's important to keep ourselves safe.

SenoraBob

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tea2


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I have similar feelings vam and I thank you for sharing yours. This is not a place for public debate. I am reminding myself of how this program is one of Unity, I feel this thread to be an extremely dividing one. However because of Al-Anon I am able to see some other things within this. For example, I took a lot from the experience Alanoner shared above.

I have been trying to figure out what is I can do and had gone to bed thinking on this.

I also thank you because while I do not have the answer for this situation while writing this reply it has occurred to me what I can do for now and that is to place a lock on this thread.
Tracey/tea2



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Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums -> Al-Anon Family Group -> Al-Anon Family Group -> My two cents.